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Originally posted by edpobre
This means that God has NO beginning and NO ending. God is from eternity to eternity. In contrast, Jesus, a MAN, said that he proceeded forth and came from God (John 8:42).
Ed
Originally posted by OldShepherd
Posted by Kain
Only a trinitarian would see that verse as two gods speaking.
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God.
I see you ignored the Jewish, as in non-Trinitarian, JPS and LXX translation of this verse which I posted. Did these Jewish translators translate this verse wrong? Especially the LXX translators 250 years BC. They certainly must have had a Trinitarian bias.
All those other verses you posted are totally irrelevant.
Here is the word translated his redeemer וגאלו, in Isa 44:6. Can you locate this word? Can you identify the stem, the mood, the gender, or the case of this word? It is the word gaal redeemer with the waw conjunction and the 3ms or third person masculine singular, pronominal suffix, waw ו . The literal translation is and redeemer of him In order to be translated thy it would have to be written וגאלך
That is the point this verse very clearly identifies two distinct entities, One the LORD, the King of Israel, and two, his Redeemer the LORD of hosts:
JPS Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God.
Who is Israel's Redeemer?
Here is the word translated his redeemer וגאלו, in Isa 44:6. Can you locate this word? Can you identify the stem, the mood, the gender, or the case of this word? It is the word gaal redeemer with the waw conjunction and the 3ms or third person masculine singular, pronominal suffix, waw ו . The literal translation is and redeemer of him In order to be translated thy it would have to be written וגאלך
That is the point this verse very clearly identifies two distinct entities, One the LORD, the King of Israel, and two, his Redeemer the LORD of hosts:
LXX 6 Thus saith God the King of Israel, and the God of hosts that delivered him; I am the first, and I am hereafter: beside me there is no God.
Given the context of the rest of Isaiah (and the rest of the Tanach), you would be hard pressed to convince any non-trinitarian that there are multiple presonalities being presented in that verse.
I wouldnt be too sure about that.
How A Rabbi Found Peace.[snip Rabbi tract]
A Christian quote? Hardly. The above is taken from the Zohar, an ancient book of Jewish mysticism. The Zohar is somewhat esoteric and most contemporary Jews don't study it, but there are other Jewish books that refer to God's plurality as well.[/I]
Jehovah God as Creator is called Father. (Isa 64:8; compare Ac 17:28, 29.)
He is also the Father of spirit-begotten Christians, the Aramaic term ´Ab·ba´' being used as an expression of respect and of close filial relationship. (Ro 8:15; see ABBA.)
All who express faith with a hope of everlasting life can address God as Father. (Mt 6:9)
Jesus Christ, the Messiah, because of being Gods Chief Agent of life, was prophetically called Eternal Father. (Isa 9:6)
Also, anyone who has imitators and followers, or those who exhibit his qualities, is regarded as a father to them. (Mt 5:44, 45; Ro 4:11, 12) In this sense the Devil is spoken of as a father.Joh 8:44; compare Ge 3:15.
By knowing the origin of mankind, that Adam was originally a son of God and that we all descended from Adam (Lu 3:38), we can clearly understand the statement: Just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned. (Ro 5:12) Also, such knowledge makes understandable how Jesus Christ can be the last Adam and the Eternal Father and how it can be that just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. (Isa 9:6; 1Co 15:22, 45)
There is a difference between the death of Jesus and that of Adama difference that highlights the value of the ransom. Adams death was deserved, for he willfully disobeyed his Creator. (Genesis 2:16, 17) In contrast, Jesus death was wholly undeserved, for he committed no sin. (1 Peter 2:22) So when Jesus died, he had something of enormous value that the sinner Adam did not possess at his deaththe right to perfect human life. Thus, Jesus death had sacrificial value.
Upon ascending to heaven as a spirit person, he presented the value of his sacrifice to Jehovah. (Hebrews 9:24)
By doing so, Jesus purchased sinful mankind and became their new Father, a replacement for Adam. (1 Corinthians 15:45)
With good reason, Jesus is called the Eternal Father. (Isaiah 9:6) Think of what this means! Adam, a sinful father, spread death to all his descendants. Jesus, a perfect Father, uses the value of his sacrifice to bestow eternal life upon obedient humans.
Therefore he can be described as an eternal father because the life they gain is everlasting. But he is not The Father because even Jesus was given life by his resurrection from death by The Father.
Ok now answer this question. What is meant by everlasting in this verse?
Micah 5:2 " But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, <I>Though </I>you are little among the thousands of Judah, <I>Yet </I>out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth <I>are </I>from of old, From everlasting."
but would say that obviously a Christian can still be a Christian regardless of his stance on the issue of the Trinity.With due respects, your belief is FALSE. The DISCIPLES of Christ were first called Christians in Antioch (Acts 11:26). And a DISCIPLE of Christ is one who BELIEVES in Christ and ABIDES in his word or teaching (John 8:31).
Christ TAUGHT that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). The Trinity doctrine is OPPOSITE what Christ TAUGHT. Therefore, Trinitarians are NOT Christians!
The Bible is actually quite contradictory on the subject and to say otherwise is really ignoring the written words. While the 4th Gospel says that Jesus and God are one, and the others allude indirectly to that, other parts of the Gospels clearly have Jesus claim to be subordinate to God, his father.
I beg to disagree! The Bible is NOT contradictory on the subject. The Bible does NOT teach that Jesus and God are one...God. This is only an assumption. The Bible does NOT allude that Jesus is God. That's only in the IMAGINATION or interpretation of Trinitarians. You CANNOT show me a verse that CATEGORICALLY say that Jesus is God.
When speaking to Christians I have always found it to be a mark of maturity when they can repect the faith of others. After all, it is the nature of faith to do so. If one does not repect the faith of others, then one's faith must be shallow indeed.
I am NOT in these boards to join a mutual appreciation club. I am here to HELP people see the TRUTH or see the FALSITY of what they believe in order to "pull them out of the fire" (Jude 1:23).
While I respect other people's faith, that does NOT prevent me from pointing out what is FALSE that they may see the TRUTH. As Jesus prayed the Father, the word of God (the Bible) is the TRUTH. And it is ONLY by the TRUTH that pople may be snctified (John 17:17).
Ed
Originally posted by OldShepherd
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
In an earlier post you said you didnt care what anyone else said that you believed what Jesus said. Rom 10:9 is Paul speaking. Jesus said that He would raise Himself up, John 2:19, 10:18. You are always quoting your one or two out-of-context proof texts and asking if the writer was lying. So I ask you the same question. Was Jesus lying when He said that He would raise Himself? Was Jesus lying when He said He had received a commandment from God to take up His life after He laid it down?
May I suggest that you learn what the Bible says before you start spewing out insults, because the Bible does not support your Iglesias Ni Manalo doctrine.
I will say it one last time I called what you posted "mumbo jumbo" I did not attack you, you insulted my intelligence.
Originally posted by edpobre
Originallysted by cougan
Micah 5:2 Today's English Version: "The Lord says, "Bethlehem Ephrathah, you are one of the smallest towns in Judah, but out of you I will bring a ruler for Israel, whose family line goes back to ancient times."
As Jesus said in John 8:42, he proceeded forth and came from God. Therefore, "his goings forth are from old, from everlasting" means that the ruler (Jesus) shall come from God, the everlasting.
Ed
*****************Originally posted by cougan
Ok now answer this question. What is meant by everlasting in this verse?
Micah 5:2 " But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, <I>Though </I>you are little among the thousands of Judah, <I>Yet </I>out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth <I>are </I>from of old, From everlasting."
*******Originally posted by edpobre
Originally posted by LightBearer
The ONLY true God is the FATHER (John 17:3) and according to Jesus, there is ONLY ONE Father, He who is in heaven (Matt. 23:9). Thus, the statement "Jehovah God as Creator is called Father" is FALSE because it implies that there could be other Fathers (of Spirits) besides God. God alone is the Father of Spirits (Heb. 12:9). There is NO other Father besides God.
Not every so-called "spirit-begotten Christians" is a disciple of Christ and therefore adopted child of God.
Jesus was talking to his DISCIPLES in Mt. 6:9. Only CHILDREN of God have the right to call God "Abba Father" (Gal. 4:6). Not everyone who expresses faith with a hope of everlasting life has received ADOPTION as a CHILD of God.
This is FALSE. The last part of Isaiah 9:6 is a MISTRANSLATION. The Smith-Goodspeed Translation renders it thus: "...And his name will be called 'Wonderful counselor is God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of peace."
Jesus was NEVER called FATHER by his disciples. Jesus himself called his DISCIPLES his BRETHREN (John 20:17). Jesus TAUGHT that there is ONLY ONE Father and it did NOT include himself.
Sure, but the Bible does NOT teach that Jesus was EVER called Father by his DISCIPLES or anyone else except in Isaiah 9:6 which is a MISTRANSLATION.
This is only an assumption. There is ONLY ONE "Father of Spirits" (Heb. 12:9) and that ONLY ONE Father is God. Thus, Jesus CANNOT be called "Eternal Father" because it would make it appear that there are TWO Fathers of Spirits.
This does NOT make Jesus the "Eternal Father."
This statement is FALSE for two reasons:
1) Jesus did NOT ascend to heaven as a "spirit person." A spirit does NOT have flesh and bones like Jesus has (Luke 24:39). Thus, a spirit is INVISIBLE like God (John 4:24; 1 Tim. 1:17; 6:16).
Jesus was seen by as many as 500 people when he ascended to heaven (1 Cor. 15:6; Acts 1:11).). In fact, Jesus ate broiled fish AFTER his resurrection (Luke 24:41-43); and
2) Jesus did NOT ascend to heaven to "present the value of his sacrifice to Jehovah." He is in the presence of God as our High Priest (Heb. 4:14-15) and only MEDIATOR between God and men (1 Tim. 2:5).
The verse you quoted does NOT say that Jesus became the new Father of mankind, a replacement for Adam. What you are saying is only your own interpretation of the verse.
This statement that "Jesus, a perfect Father, uses the value of his sacrifice to bestow eternal life upon obedient humans" is FALSE. It does NOT have any Biblical basis. This is only your assumption or opinion.
Jesus does NOT bestow eternal life. Jesus himself is co-heir with other adopted children of God to God's promises (Rom. 8:17; Gal. 3:19; Gal. 4:7).
What you are saying is ABSURD. Just because sinners gain everlasting life through Jesus' death, you now call him "eternal Father" yet you say he is NOT "the Father."
What you are saying in effect is that there are TWO Fathers: one is the "eternal Father" of sinners who gain eternal life; and the other Father is "the Father" of CREATION.
But Jesus said there is ONLY ONE Father, he who is in heaven (Matt. 23:9). Who should we believe, you or Jesus?
Ed
1) Jesus did NOT ascend to heaven as a "spirit person." A spirit does NOT have flesh and bones like Jesus has (Luke 24:39). Thus, a spirit is INVISIBLE like God (John 4:24; 1 Tim. 1:17; 6:16).
That was just too cute for words. You have ignored much of my post each time, specifically JPS and LXX and your little feelings are hurt because I won't jump thru hoops and address all your scripture citations.Originally posted by Kain
When it supports your trinitarian view, the Jews become perfect translators. It's a common theme I see repeated from many.
Besides from that, I've already explained this verse, but you have rejected that explanation. I supported my view by showing other verses that show who is the true Redeemer, but you call that irrelevant. I too can play your game: Isa 44:6 is irrelevant. There. wasn't that fun?
Every anti-Trinitarian in the world thinks that every musty, dusty, argument they resurrect completely destroys the Trinity argument. Get real! I believe in ONE God.The very verse defeats your argument. You say this indicates two distinct entities, yet the very next part of the verse "beside me there is no God."
Irrelevant! The original challenge was that "Only a trinitarian would see that verse as two gods speaking." I will overlook the gross misrepresenation of Trinity in this comment. But at least one of the Rabbis I cited discovered the Trinity in the Hebrew scriptures, specifically Isaiah. He was orthodox, NOT, trinitarian, when it happened. I disproved your statement but you blew it off becasue since the Rabbi afterward believed in the Trinity you, speaking for God, decide that he is no longer a Jew.I would. If you search real hard, you can find 'trinitarians' among the Rabbis, but they are no longer Jewish since they accept Christ as their savior instead of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. The bible is not an exact science. However, the trinitarians among the Jews have about the same treatment among the rest of Judaism as non-trinitarian Chrisitans have among the rest of Christianity. Especially considering, the testimony of Jews-for-Jesus (Christians disguised as Jews) converts doesn't sit will with Judeism.
Not canonized? Irrelevant! My point was that the Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit was first conceptualized within non-Trinitarian Judaism, before Christianity.The Zohar isn't a canonized book of the Tanach. It you wish to consider one non-canonized books, they you also have to consider all the non-canonized books which will just make one big mess of things.
Side note: Find a trinity support quote from an actual Jewish Rabbi, one who is accepted in the Jewish community and not a Christian convert. That will add more credence to your view.
by Edpobre
The ONLY true God is the FATHER (John 17:3) and according to Jesus, there is ONLY ONE Father, He who is in heaven (Matt. 23:9). Thus, the statement "Jehovah God as Creator is called Father" is FALSE because it implies that there could be other Fathers (of Spirits) besides God. God alone is the Father of Spirits (Heb. 12:9). There is NO other Father besides God.
By Edpobre
Not every so-called "spirit-begotten Christians" is a disciple of Christ and therefore adopted child of God.
By Edpobre
This is FALSE. The last part of Isaiah 9:6 is a MISTRANSLATION. The Smith-Goodspeed Translation renders it thus: "...And his name will be called 'Wonderful counselor is God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of peace."
By lightbearer
Also, anyone who has imitators and followers, or those who exhibit his qualities, is regarded as a father to them. (Mt 5:44, 45; Ro 4:11, 12) In this sense the Devil is spoken of as a father.Joh 8:44; compare Ge 3:15.
Answer by Edpobre
"Sure, but the Bible does NOT teach that Jesus was EVER called Father by his DISCIPLES or anyone else except in Isaiah 9:6 which is a MISTRANSLATION.
By Edpobre
This does NOT make Jesus the "Eternal Father."
By Edpobre
This statement that "Jesus, a perfect Father, uses the value of his sacrifice to bestow eternal life upon obedient humans" is FALSE. It does NOT have any Biblical basis. This is only your assumption or opinion.
By Edpobre
This statement is FALSE for two reasons:
1) Jesus did NOT ascend to heaven as a "spirit person." A spirit does NOT have flesh and bones like Jesus has (Luke 24:39). Thus, a spirit is INVISIBLE like God (John 4:24; 1 Tim. 1:17; 6:16).
Jesus was seen by as many as 500 people when he ascended to heaven (1 Cor. 15:6; Acts 1:11).). In fact, Jesus ate broiled fish AFTER his resurrection (Luke 24:41-43); and
By Edpobre
2) Jesus did NOT ascend to heaven to "present the value of his sacrifice to Jehovah." He is in the presence of God as our High Priest (Heb. 4:14-15) and only MEDIATOR between God and men (1 Tim. 2:5).
Originally posted by Messenger
Hello everyone! First please pardon my interuption as I have not read all 26 pages nor do I plan to. I find this NONSENSE!!! TRINITARIANS VS. NONTRINITARIANS....ARE WE ARE THEY CHRISTAINS?
DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE WORD OF GOD?
DO YOU BELIEVE GOD SENT HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON TO DIE ON THE CROSS?
DO YOU ACCEPT JESUS AS YOUR SAVIOR?
EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST IS BORN OF GOD AND EVERYONE WHO LOVES THE FATHER LOVES HIS SON AS WELL.
I AM A NONTRINITARIAN NOT AN ANTITRINITARIAN....LOVE IS IMPORTANT AND THIS LINE OF QUESTIONING LACKS THE LOVE JESUS HAD FOR US.
1 JOHN 4 LET US LOVE ONE ANOTHER FOR LOVE COMES FROM GOD. EVERYONE WHO LOVES HAS BEEN BORN OF GOD AND KNOWS GOD. WHOEVER DOES NOT LOVE DOES NOT KNOW GOD BECAUSE GOD IS LOVE. WE KNOW THAT WE LIVE IN HIM AND HE IN US BECAUSE HE HAS GIVEN US HIS SPIRIT.
IF YOU READ YOUR BIBLE IT IS EASY TO UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT BEHIND TRINITY AND WHY THEY BELIEVE THE WAY THEY DO I DON'T CARE FOR THE CEED BECAUSE I BELIEVE IT HAS FLAWS BUT I WON'T DARE SAY SOMEONE ISN'T A CHRISTIAN JUST BECAUSE THEY DO BELIEVE NOR SHOULD ANYONE SAY I'M NOT BECAUSE I DON'T ACCEPT IT.
WHERE IS THE LOVE....WHERE IS GOD? I WAS MADE AWARE OF THIS THREAD BY ANOTHER ON THE THREAD AGAINST NON-TRINITARIANS...IT ERKS ME TO SEE CHRISTIANS BEHAVING THIS WAY....I AM A CHRISTIAN AND JUST SO HAPPEN NOT TO ACCEPT THE CREED AS 100% RIGHT. JESUS GOD AND THE HOLY SPIRIT ARE ONE IN PURPOSE BUT NOT ONE IN BEING. JESUS ASKS THAT WE BECOME ONE AS HE AND HIS FATHER ARE ONE...GOD PLACED JESUS UP TO HIS STANDING...THE HOLY SPIRIT I BELIEVE IS THE SPIRIT OF GOD. MOST NON-TRINITARIANS HAVE BIBLICAL REASONING FOR BELIEVING AS THEY DO AND THE SAME FOR SOME TRINITARIANS....WHO IS RIGHT AND WHO IS WRONG I'LL LET GOD DECIDE....AS FAR AS I KNOW HE ONLY ASKED FOR OUR LOVE NOT OUR FIGURING HIS DEMINSIONS OUT COMPLETELY. GOD IS EVERYWHERE.
LOVE AND GOD BLESS
Originally posted by OldShepherd
That was just too cute for words. You have ignored much of my post each time, specifically JPS and LXX and your little feelings are hurt because I won't jump thru hoops and address all your scripture citations.
Every anti-Trinitarian in the world thinks that every musty, dusty, argument they resurrect completely destroys the Trinity argument. Get real! I believe in ONE God.
Irrelevant! The original challenge was that "Only a trinitarian would see that verse as two gods speaking." I will overlook the gross misrepresenation of Trinity in this comment. But at least one of the Rabbis I cited discovered the Trinity in the Hebrew scriptures, specifically Isaiah. He was orthodox, NOT, trinitarian, when it happened. I disproved your statement but you blew it off becasue since the Rabbi afterward believed in the Trinity you, speaking for God, decide that he is no longer a Jew.
Not canonized? Irrelevant! My point was that the Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit was first conceptualized within non-Trinitarian Judaism, before Christianity.
Yeah, right. Just like you said as soon as a Rabbi accepts the Trinity, he is no longer accepted in the Jewish community. And I'm going to go right out here and find a Methodist or Baptist who teaches that Christians are required to observe all the Jewish feasts and festivals, Shavuot, Pesach, etc. Get real.
Ed,
I really have to disagree with you on this..
We have other examples of Spirits having flesh and bones --
I would only claim that Jacob wrestled with God ( Christ ) in the form of a man - the others we can see were Angels in human form. Everything is possible with God - Including God manifesting Himself in human form as Christ.
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