Are these things sins?

[AMM]

***you are in the Orthodox subforum***

I was reading about tollhouses (this thread is not a debate about tollhouses!), from the other ongoing thread, and I read a description of the vision of Gregory of Thrace (10th c.) regarding them. The OrthoWiki articles states the following, and I was wondering about some of these things listed. Are the underlined sections considered sinful in Orthodoxy?

• At the first aerial toll-house, the soul is questioned about sins of the tongue, such as empty words, dirty talk, insults, ridicule, singing worldly songs, too much or loud laughter, and similar sins.
• The second is the toll-house of lies, which includes not only ordinary lies, but also the breaking of oaths, the violation of vows given to God, taking God's name in vain, hiding sins during confession, and similar acts.
• The third is the toll-house of slander. It includes judging, humiliating, embarrassing, mocking, and laughing at people, and similar transgressions.
• The fourth is the toll-house of gluttony, which includes overeating, drunkenness, eating between meals, eating without prayer, not holding fasts, choosing tasty over plain food, eating when not hungry, and the like.
• The fifth is the toll-house of laziness, where the soul is held accountable for every day and hour spent in laziness, for neglecting to serve God and pray, for missing Church services, and also for not earning money through hard, honest labor, for not working as much as you are paid, and all similar sins.
• The sixth toll-house is the toll-house of theft, which includes stealing and robbery, whether small, big, light, violent, public, or hidden.
• The seventh is the toll-house of covetousness, including love of riches and goods, failure to give to charity, and similar acts.
• The eight is the toll-house of usury, loan-sharking, overpricing, and similar sins.
• The ninth is the toll-house of injustice- being unjust, especially in judicial affairs, accepting or giving bribes, dishonest trading and business, using false measures, and similar sins.
• The tenth is the toll-house of envy.
• The eleventh is the toll-house of pride- vanity, self-will, boasting, not honoring parents and civil authorities, insubordination, disobedience, and similar sins.
• The twelve is the toll-house of anger and rage.
• The thirteenth is the toll-house of remembering evil- hatred, holding a grudge, and revenge.
• The fourteenth is the toll-house of murder- not just plain murder, but also wounding, maiming, hitting, pushing, and generally injuring people.
• The fifteenth is the toll-house of magic- divination, conjuring demons, making poison, all superstitions, and associated acts.
• The sixteenth is the toll-house of lust- fornication, unclean thoughts, lustful looks, unchaste touches.
• The seventeenth is the toll-house of adultery.
• The eighteenth is the toll-house of sodomy: inappropriate behavior with animals, homosexuality, incest, masturbation, and all other unnatural sins.
• The nineteenth is the toll-house of heresy: rejecting any part of Orthodox faith, wrongly interpreting it, apostasy, blasphemy, and all similar sins.
• The last, twentieth toll-house is the toll-house of unmercifulness: failing to show mercy and charity to people, and being cruel in any way.

(regarding "wrongly interpreting the Orthodox faith" - does that refer to unknowingly holding false beliefs? Or active going against what the Church teaches?)

 

[ArmyMatt]

actively going against Church teachings.

 

[AMM]

actively going against Church teachings.

thanks.

What about those other things? Is it a sin to laugh, sing secular songs, eat snacks, and eat tasty food?

 

[Not David]

thanks.

What about those other things? Is it a sin to laugh, sing secular songs, eat snacks, and eat tasty food?

Does that mean I can't sing "You belong with me" by Taylor Swift?

 

[WanderedHome]

***you are in the Orthodox subforum***

I was reading about tollhouses (this thread is not a debate about tollhouses!), from the other ongoing thread, and I read a description of the vision of Gregory of Thrace (10th c.) regarding them. The OrthoWiki articles states the following, and I was wondering about some of these things listed. Are the underlined sections considered sinful in Orthodoxy?

• At the first aerial toll-house, the soul is questioned about sins of the tongue, such as empty words, dirty talk, insults, ridicule, singing worldly songs, too much or loud laughter, and similar sins.
• The second is the toll-house of lies, which includes not only ordinary lies, but also the breaking of oaths, the violation of vows given to God, taking God's name in vain, hiding sins during confession, and similar acts.
• The third is the toll-house of slander. It includes judging, humiliating, embarrassing, mocking, and laughing at people, and similar transgressions.
• The fourth is the toll-house of gluttony, which includes overeating, drunkenness, eating between meals, eating without prayer, not holding fasts, choosing tasty over plain food, eating when not hungry, and the like.
• The fifth is the toll-house of laziness, where the soul is held accountable for every day and hour spent in laziness, for neglecting to serve God and pray, for missing Church services, and also for not earning money through hard, honest labor, for not working as much as you are paid, and all similar sins.
• The sixth toll-house is the toll-house of theft, which includes stealing and robbery, whether small, big, light, violent, public, or hidden.
• The seventh is the toll-house of covetousness, including love of riches and goods, failure to give to charity, and similar acts.
• The eight is the toll-house of usury, loan-sharking, overpricing, and similar sins.
• The ninth is the toll-house of injustice- being unjust, especially in judicial affairs, accepting or giving bribes, dishonest trading and business, using false measures, and similar sins.
• The tenth is the toll-house of envy.
• The eleventh is the toll-house of pride- vanity, self-will, boasting, not honoring parents and civil authorities, insubordination, disobedience, and similar sins.
• The twelve is the toll-house of anger and rage.
• The thirteenth is the toll-house of remembering evil- hatred, holding a grudge, and revenge.
• The fourteenth is the toll-house of murder- not just plain murder, but also wounding, maiming, hitting, pushing, and generally injuring people.
• The fifteenth is the toll-house of magic- divination, conjuring demons, making poison, all superstitions, and associated acts.
• The sixteenth is the toll-house of lust- fornication, unclean thoughts, lustful looks, unchaste touches.
• The seventeenth is the toll-house of adultery.
• The eighteenth is the toll-house of sodomy: inappropriate behavior with animals, homosexuality, incest, masturbation, and all other unnatural sins.
• The nineteenth is the toll-house of heresy: rejecting any part of Orthodox faith, wrongly interpreting it, apostasy, blasphemy, and all similar sins.
• The last, twentieth toll-house is the toll-house of unmercifulness: failing to show mercy and charity to people, and being cruel in any way.

(regarding "wrongly interpreting the Orthodox faith" - does that refer to unknowingly holding false beliefs? Or active going against what the Church teaches?)

Among the Fathers you will also find horse races and bird watching among the list of sins. I think these are meant to be understood within a specific cultural context. Many of the sins you highlighted seem to be a result of applying strict monastic rules to non-monastics. I think the rule of moderation would be applicable.

 

[Phronema]

Among the Fathers you will also find horse races and bird watching among the list of sins. I think these are meant to be understood within a specific cultural context. Many of the sins you highlighted seem to be a result of applying strict monastic rules to non-monastics. I think the rule of moderation would be applicable.

I agree, and St. John Climacus mentions at least some, or maybe all of those things (I can't recall off the top of my head) in The Ladder of Divine Ascent which was originally written for monks, and nuns.

 

[ArmyMatt]

thanks.

What about those other things? Is it a sin to laugh, sing secular songs, eat snacks, and eat tasty food?

they certainly can be. remember the context of the vision though, it's not the end-all for the toll houses.

 

[AMM]

Among the Fathers you will also find horse races and bird watching among the list of sins. I think these are meant to be understood within a specific cultural context. Many of the sins you highlighted seem to be a result of applying strict monastic rules to non-monastics. I think the rule of moderation would be applicable.

I agree, and St. John Climacus mentions at least some, or maybe all of those things (I can't recall off the top of my head) in The Ladder of Divine Ascent which was originally written for monks, and nuns.

agreed with the sentiment about culture and moderation. But I don't think we can say, "oh it's just monastic." St John Chrysostom says that there is no difference between the morality of a monk and a layperson. The Gospel teaches the same thing to all.

they certainly can be. remember the context of the vision though, it's not the end-all for the toll houses.

Sure, I was just wondering if I need to stop listening to secular music or learning how to cook tasty food and enjoying the food that I eat, or rather, choosing to eat food that sounds good instead of something that sounds gross (and I'm not talking about eating vegetables vs. eating M&Ms)

 

[archer75]

I wonder about this kind of stuff too. Seems like a thing to bring up with one's spiritual father.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sure, I was just wondering if I need to stop listening to secular music or learning how to cook tasty food and enjoying the food that I eat, or rather, choosing to eat food that sounds good instead of something that sounds gross (and I'm not talking about eating vegetables vs. eating M&Ms)

here's your answer:

Seems like a thing to bring up with one's spiritual father.

 

[All4Christ]

agreed with the sentiment about culture and moderation. But I don't think we can say, "oh it's just monastic." St John Chrysostom says that there is no difference between the morality of a monk and a layperson. The Gospel teaches the same thing to all.


Sure, I was just wondering if I need to stop listening to secular music or learning how to cook tasty food and enjoying the food that I eat, or rather, choosing to eat food that sounds good instead of something that sounds gross (and I'm not talking about eating vegetables vs. eating M&Ms)

St John Chrysostom also says “feast ye sumptuously”. I don’t think what you referenced is sin when done in moderation. While true about morality between monastics and laity being the same, there also is a matter of obedience - there may be different things asked for. For example - it is not a sin to be married, and many are called to that, yet monastics are required to be celibate (at least at the time of monasticism). A person who is pregnant may not be able to fast as much - but she isn’t winning. A person who is taking care of a sick loved one who therefore cannot make it to liturgy is not sinning by doing so. There is an element of obedience that may be different requirements between monastics and laity - which does not affect morality inherently but may affect some behaviors to be or not be sinful.

That said, all of these things I mentioned can be taken to an extreme - which would be sinful across the board. Someone could decide that since they don’t need to fast now, the fasting is not something that will impact them in some way (there are other forms of fasting that go along with fasting from food). A married person could be too focused on the physical side to the neglect of the spiritual side. A person could decide that church isn’t important since they take care of someone instead.

Apologies in advance about the numbering. I’m on my phone and it isn’t working to try to remove the numbers.

1. 
   40. Food is not evil, but gluttony is. Childbearing is not evil, but fornication is. Money is not evil, but avarice is. Glory is not evil, but vainglory is. Indeed, there is no evil in existing things, but only in their misuse.
   (St. Maximus the Confessor, Chapters on Love, 3.4)
2. 1. It is needful to do everything with discernment, and to take your own measure, so that you will not be confused later. To perform alms, fasting, or anything else at the highest degree (beyond one's limits or personal measure) lacks discernment, since later it will lead the one who performs them into confusion, despondency, and grumbling. Even God requires that which is according to the strength of man.
      (St. Barsanuphius the Great, Instructions, 627)

 

[AMM]

I'll keep this in mind for when I am able to meet with my spiritual father again.

St John Chrysostom also says “feast he sumptuously”. I don’t think that is the case in moderation. While true about morality between monastics and laity being the same, there also is a matter of obedience - there may be different things asked for. For example - it is not a sin to be married, and many are called to that, yet monastics are required to be celibate (at least at the time of monasticism). A person who is pregnant may not be able to fast as much - but she isn’t winning. A person who is taking care of a sick loved one who therefore cannot make it to liturgy is not sinning by doing so. There is an element of obedience that may be different requirements between monastics and laity - which does not affect morality inherently but may affect some behaviors to be or not be sinful.

That said, all of these things I mentioned can be taken to an extreme - which would be sinful across the board. Someone could decide that since they don’t need to fast now, the fasting is not something that will impact them in some way (there are other forms of fasting that go along with fasting from food). A married person could be too focused on the physical side to the neglect of the spiritual side. A person could decide that church isn’t important since they take care of someone instead.

Apologies in advance about the numbering. I’m on my phone and it isn’t working to try to remove the numbers.

1. 
   40. Food is not evil, but gluttony is. Childbearing is not evil, but fornication is. Money is not evil, but avarice is. Glory is not evil, but vainglory is. Indeed, there is no evil in existing things, but only in their misuse.
   (St. Maximus the Confessor, Chapters on Love, 3.4)
2. 1. It is needful to do everything with discernment, and to take your own measure, so that you will not be confused later. To perform alms, fasting, or anything else at the highest degree (beyond one's limits or personal measure) lacks discernment, since later it will lead the one who performs them into confusion, despondency, and grumbling. Even God requires that which is according to the strength of man.
      (St. Barsanuphius the Great, Instructions, 627)

this is helpful. Discernment is definitely something I lack, though I suppose that is one point of having a spiritual father to begin with. That quote from St Barsanuphius also touches on something that makes a lot of sense but isn't something I had in mind: taking things to too high a degree, can lead to negative feelings like despondency, grumbling and not just pride. We're supposed to be joyful at all times, so our spiritual father can help us with that, too, by being moderate, while also helping us to strive towards God

 

[All4Christ]

I'll keep this in mind for when I am able to meet with my spiritual father again.


this is helpful. Discernment is definitely something I lack, though I suppose that is one point of having a spiritual father to begin with. That quote from St Barsanuphius also touches on something that makes a lot of sense but isn't something I had in mind: taking things to too high a degree, can lead to negative feelings like despondency, grumbling and not just pride. We're supposed to be joyful at all times, so our spiritual father can help us with that, too, by being moderate, while also helping us to strive towards God

Exactly. I think that’s the purpose of why we have that - to help us to strive towards God - to help with whatever is needed for our spiritual journey to God.

 

[Lukaris]

St John Climacus tells the average layperson ( probably should be 90% of people in general) what to do:

21. Some people living carelessly in the world have asked me: ‘We have wives and are beset with social cares, and how can we lead the solitary life?’ I replied to them: ‘Do all the good you can; do not speak evil of anyone; do not steal from anyone; do not lie to anyone; do not be arrogant towards anyone; do not hate any one; be sure you go to church; be compassionate to the needy; do not offend anyone; do not wreck another man’s domestic happiness;3 and be content with what your own wives can give you. If you behave in this way you will not be far from the Kingdom of Heaven.’

http://www.prudencetrue.com/images/TheLadderofDivineAscent.pdf

Compare with Matthew 19:16-19, Romans 13:8-10 etc.

 

[Phronema]

agreed with the sentiment about culture and moderation. But I don't think we can say, "oh it's just monastic." St John Chrysostom says that there is no difference between the morality of a monk and a layperson. The Gospel teaches the same thing to all.

I see what you're alluding to, and at some point there's overlap between the two such as fasting, and other ascetic practices, but we're not expected to be the same thing as laity. I don't believe morality, and living exactly like one through action on a daily basis is the same thing, and so in my opinion that's not exactly what St. John Chyrsostom was referring to with that statement. For instance monks, and nuns take a vow of celibacy, and poverty while laity doesn't. They also don't eat meat, eat in silence while listening to prayer, and so on. The lives we live aren't really comparable, and not everyone is called to live a monastic lifestyle.

So while there are similarities, and we are all striving for the same goal the journey to get there is different, and that's why I believe we're held to a different standard on a day to day basis when compared to monks and nuns. Some texts would reinforce that, and I believe this is one of them.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

I would strongly recommend reading Paedagogus by Clement of Alexandria. He makes sense of many of these issues: laughter, eating, drinking, clothes, etc. Really good practical advice from the Second Century.

You can get it cheap on Amazon for Kindle.

 

[Hermit76]

Perhaps our modernity has blinded us from some very obvious principles of Christian living?
I think about the lives that my grandparents described in rural Appalachia in the 30s and it's easy to see how our idea of virtue has changed.
Modern man is really strange, loud, excessive, and oblivious to a quiet, plain life.
Interesting enough that I read this same list this week and it has prompted several changes.
Lord have mercy

 

[AMM]

Perhaps our modernity has blinded us from some very obvious principles of Christian living?
I think about the lives that my grandparents described in rural Appalachia in the 30s and it's easy to see how our idea of virtue has changed.
Modern man is really strange, loud, excessive, and oblivious to a quiet, plain life.
Interesting enough that I read this same list this week and it has prompted several changes.
Lord have mercy

Modernity has definitely changed things. On the topic of snacking and eating outside of mealtimes, I remember even in my childhood (10-20 years ago), we didn't do that. We had breakfast, lunch, dinner. We would have desert sometimes, maybe even often. But snacks were quite an oddity, a special treat. Otherwise we would "ruin our appetite". Now, just in my own family, it's completely different. An afternoon snack is a near-daily occurrence, even an after-dinner snack is not that rare.

I may try to cut out snacking and just eat 2 (or 3) meals a day. As it is, I rarely eat breakfast, but I've heard recently that eating breakfast can help prevent snacking later in the day. I do feel better, too, when I'm not eating [junk] food constantly. During the last couple weeks of Great Lent I ate my first meal at 3pm (something small), dinner, and then I wouldn't eat outside of those times.

Noise is also unending. I don't watch TV or netflix or anything (and I get plenty of playful mockery about that) - I'd rather read, work on a hobby, or just sip a cup of tea. But I do listen to music almost constantly. If I'm doing work, I have headphones in and I'm listening to music in the background. Or I'm watching a YouTube video on the side. Or listening to a podcast. It's as if I can't single-task and focus on my specific job, without the anaesthetizing distractions of noise.

 

[SeekingGloryOnThisJourney]

St John Chrysostom also says “feast ye sumptuously”. I don’t think what you referenced is sin when done in moderation. While true about morality between monastics and laity being the same, there also is a matter of obedience - there may be different things asked for. For example - it is not a sin to be married, and many are called to that, yet monastics are required to be celibate (at least at the time of monasticism). A person who is pregnant may not be able to fast as much - but she isn’t winning. A person who is taking care of a sick loved one who therefore cannot make it to liturgy is not sinning by doing so. There is an element of obedience that may be different requirements between monastics and laity - which does not affect morality inherently but may affect some behaviors to be or not be sinful.

That said, all of these things I mentioned can be taken to an extreme - which would be sinful across the board. Someone could decide that since they don’t need to fast now, the fasting is not something that will impact them in some way (there are other forms of fasting that go along with fasting from food). A married person could be too focused on the physical side to the neglect of the spiritual side. A person could decide that church isn’t important since they take care of someone instead.

Apologies in advance about the numbering. I’m on my phone and it isn’t working to try to remove the numbers.

1. 
   40. Food is not evil, but gluttony is. Childbearing is not evil, but fornication is. Money is not evil, but avarice is. Glory is not evil, but vainglory is. Indeed, there is no evil in existing things, but only in their misuse.
   (St. Maximus the Confessor, Chapters on Love, 3.4)
2. 1. It is needful to do everything with discernment, and to take your own measure, so that you will not be confused later. To perform alms, fasting, or anything else at the highest degree (beyond one's limits or personal measure) lacks discernment, since later it will lead the one who performs them into confusion, despondency, and grumbling. Even God requires that which is according to the strength of man.
      (St. Barsanuphius the Great, Instructions, 627)

True.
It’s not the object itself of what makes it evil, it is one’s intentions that can make it evil.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

Modernity has definitely changed things. On the topic of snacking and eating outside of mealtimes, I remember even in my childhood (10-20 years ago), we didn't do that. We had breakfast, lunch, dinner. We would have desert sometimes, maybe even often. But snacks were quite an oddity, a special treat. Otherwise we would "ruin our appetite". Now, just in my own family, it's completely different. An afternoon snack is a near-daily occurrence, even an after-dinner snack is not that rare.

I may try to cut out snacking and just eat 2 (or 3) meals a day. As it is, I rarely eat breakfast, but I've heard recently that eating breakfast can help prevent snacking later in the day. I do feel better, too, when I'm not eating [junk] food constantly. During the last couple weeks of Great Lent I ate my first meal at 3pm (something small), dinner, and then I wouldn't eat outside of those times.

Noise is also unending. I don't watch TV or netflix or anything (and I get plenty of playful mockery about that) - I'd rather read, work on a hobby, or just sip a cup of tea. But I do listen to music almost constantly. If I'm doing work, I have headphones in and I'm listening to music in the background. Or I'm watching a YouTube video on the side. Or listening to a podcast. It's as if I can't single-task and focus on my specific job, without the anaesthetizing distractions of noise.

I think the in between snacking is more an American thing. We don’t do that here in Europe. Another American thing is the enormous portion sizes.

I think we would all do well to imitate the simple, healthy diet found on Mt. Athos.

And wine at 8.00am