Are there sincere seekers in hell?

[Maria Billingsley]

It all comes down to why we should believe something is true. I need good evidence to go back to believing God exists. Do you have any?

The problem with your question is no matter what evidence I present you, you will find fault in it. You have chosen to quench the Holy Spirit. I believe you would be better served finding evidence that He does not exist.
Approach the problem from a different angle.

 

[Halbhh]

I glad your life improved. Why do you credit a God for it? I could get a self help book with good advice that will improve my life.

If you try 8 ways to improve your life (for me it was more like 20), and they have some modest improvements that are nice....

And then you try a new way, and suddenly it's like someone flipped a switch, and the change is a gigantic improvement, then you notice that particular way was far more effective than the other competing ways.

So, from that much experience, you correctly realize this particular instruction was the game-changer. Your respect for the source goes up some (or quite a bit).

Then you want more of that kind of huge gain.

So, I tried more and more things. They all work just as Jesus said they do. Including not only the how-to-live-with-others, but also the more miraculous and impossible sounding ones. They work amazingly also.

 

[Lukaris]

If we cannot know we are saved then I don't see how that is good news. Seems to set up a system of worry and not restfulness.

The thing is that St. Paul concludes that we are to abide in faith, hope, & love ( 1 Corinthians 13:13 from within the whole context of 1 Corinthians 13). We should do this for ourselves and our neighbor as best we can. I believe what the Lord preached in John 3:16-21 is where St. Paul is drawing from ( even though their formal writings are decades apart).

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

The problem with your question is no matter what evidence I present you, you will find fault in it. You have chosen to quench the Holy Spirit. I believe you would be better served finding evidence that He does not exist.
Approach the problem from a different angle.

This is untrue. I believe in many things based on evidence. There is no way to know God does not exist. I want to know what is true, if the evidence is convincing I will have no choice but to believe. No matter what the claim is.

What are your reasons for belief in God?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

If you try 8 ways to improve your life (for me it was more like 20), and they have some modest improvements that are nice....

And then you try a new way, and suddenly it's like someone flipped a switch, and the change is a gigantic improvement, then you notice that particular way was far more effective than the other competing ways.

So, from that much experience, you correctly realize this particular instruction was the game-changer. Your respect for the source goes up some (or quite a bit).

Then you want more of that kind of huge gain.

So, I tried more and more things. They all work just as Jesus said they do. Including not only the how-to-live-with-others, but also the more miraculous and impossible sounding ones. They work amazingly also.

You have no idea what Jesus said. You mean what is written in the bible worked for you.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

This is untrue. I believe in many things based on evidence. There is no way to know God does not exist. I want to know what is true, if the evidence is convincing I will have no choice but to believe. No matter what the claim is.

What are your reasons for belief in God?

In your own words "Proof is something we cannot attain."
So like I said before, no matter what I say proof can not be attained.

 

[Halbhh]

You have no idea what Jesus said. You mean what is written in the bible worked for you.

Can you see how you are making an claim there as to what I know?

To say you know whether I know X.

You'd have to know all of my relevant experience and all of the information I learned from potentially dozens (to even sometimes hundreds) of possible sources -- from archeology to history to varied learning from scholars to direct experiences -- to know everything about all that I happen to know or experienced, as if able to do mind reading?

I think when we are tempted to make such sweeping statements as claiming something about another person's total experience and knowledge for instance, it is a good moment to stop, and delete the sentence, and reflect on what makes one have an urge to make such a claim.

 

[Petros2015]

Are there sincere seekers that would believe if they had convincing evidence for the Christian god?

Doesn't the convincing evidence come from the sincere seeking?

"He who seeks, finds."

Seek Hell, find Hell.
Seek Truth, or Life, or Joy or Peace or anything coming from the Spriit, find Christ who said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life"

When you seek something, you eventually find the source of that something.
You can't miss it.
Hell is 100% *full* of sincere seekers
They just sought the wrong thing.

The Great Divorce Quotes by C.S. Lewis.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Why shouldn't I believe in Allah or Big Foot with the same faith?

Then go ahead and do that, but you won't now, will you?

I don't want special arrangements. I want convincing evidence.

Yes, it appears you do.

Instead of telling me that I am the problem maybe tell me why you believe? What evidence do you believe is sufficient for belief? This is what the bible says for you to do.

It was simple for me. Nothing I have ever seen was not made by someone, so I know someone made the universe and all that is in it. And that universe is so sophisticated it's impossible for me to belive it happened by accedent, when not even a spec of dust comes into being by itself. So there is my reason to belive there is a God, a creater of all.

Nothing else makes sense, I mean, poof! and suddenly it started out of nothing, and for no reason? come on.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

In your own words "Proof is something we cannot attain."
So like I said before, no matter what I say proof can not be attained.

But that does not mean we cannot know things with a high level of confidence. Certainty is impossible. I presuppose that everything exists as I perceive it and that the laws of logic are true everywhere. With those presuppositions I can objectively look at claims and evaluate them. I believe many things to be true without 100% certainty or proof. I believe my phone will connect to the internet when I turn it on even though I don't know the details of how it works. I believe my wife loves me even though I can never know with 100% certainty. I believe these things are true because of the evidence I can evaluate convinces me they are true. Certainty is an epistemological wall that no one knows yet how to penetrate.

Now will you tell me why you believe?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Can you see how you are making an claim there as to what I know?

To say you know whether I know X.

You'd have to know all of my relevant experience and all of the information I learned from potentially dozens (to even sometimes hundreds) of possible sources -- from archeology to history to varied learning from scholars to direct experiences -- to know everything about all that I happen to know or experienced, as if able to do mind reading?

I think when we are tempted to make such sweeping statements as claiming something about another person's total experience and knowledge for instance, it is a good moment to stop, and delete the sentence, and reflect on what makes one have an urge to make such a claim.

I think I was unclear. I meant that no one knows what Jesus actually said, not specifically you. We only have written accounts of what he said by people that were not eyewitnesses.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Doesn't the convincing evidence come from the sincere seeking?

"He who seeks, finds."

Seek Hell, find Hell.
Seek Truth, or Life, or Joy or Peace or anything coming from the Spriit, find Christ who said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life"

When you seek something, you eventually find the source of that something.
You can't miss it.
Hell is 100% *full* of sincere seekers
They just sought the wrong thing.

The Great Divorce Quotes by C.S. Lewis.

If I sincerely seek big foot am I guaranteed to find one? No.

 

[Halbhh]

I think I was unclear. I meant that no one knows what Jesus actually said, not specifically you. We only have written accounts of what he said by people that were not eyewitnesses.

Ah, see when I began to try out Jesus's instructions experimental style, I wasn't putting faith in the source (way back then, about 30 years ago almost now), but was entirely about testing.

I expected there might be something useful, a lucky gem or 2 I could harvest (regardless of the source!), and move on, enriched. I'd test to find out.

 

[Petros2015]

If I sincerely seek big foot am I guaranteed to find one? No.

If you sincerely seek something that is leaving big foot prints, I'm am pretty sure you will eventually find what was making them, whether they look like Sasquatch foot prints or not, and whether they are made by a Sasquatch or not.

That's assuming that you follow them in the direction the toes are pointed.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Then go ahead and do that, but you won't now, will you?

No because there is insufficient evidence to do so. My point was that you won't believe in Allah or Bigfoot by the same faith you believe in your God. Why? You have the same evidence for both Allah and Yahweh.

Yes, it appears you do.

I am sorry if wanting sufficient evidence to believe a claim is special arrangements to you or God. The fact is no one can choose to believe something they are not convinced is true. All I want is convincing evidence. You believe because you are convinced by some reasons. What are they?

It was simple for me. Nothing I have ever seen was not made by someone, so I know someone made the universe and all that is in it. And that universe is so sophisticated it's impossible for me to belive it happened by accedent, when not even a spec of dust comes into being by itself. So there is my reason to belive there is a God, a creater of all.

How do you then get to the Christian God? Also, we know the universe exists by a process not by accident. The ultimate beginning is in question.

Nothing else makes sense, I mean, poof! and suddenly it started out of nothing, and for no reason? come on.

No one puts forth that everything came from nothing. Those that do are hypothesizing how that can happen, not saying it is how it happened. Just because you cannot think of a different reason everything exists does not mean that the reason does not exist. That is a fallacy.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Ah, see when I began to try out Jesus's instructions experimental style, I wasn't putting faith in the source (way back then, about 30 years ago almost now), but was entirely about testing.

I expected there might be something useful, a lucky gem or 2 I could harvest (regardless of the source!), and move on, enriched. I'd test to find out.

You can test to see if it works. How do you know that the words or instructions you tested are from a god?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

If you sincerely seek something that is leaving big foot prints, I'm am pretty sure you will eventually find what was making them, whether they look like Sasquatch foot prints or not, and whether they are made by a Sasquatch or not.

That's assuming that you follow them in the direction the toes are pointed.

That is not what I was seeking. I was seeking Bigfoot. You claimed I will find what I seek, that is untrue. If I seek Bigfoot and never find him what should I conclude? The only reasonable conclusion is that I don't know if Bigfoot exists and should not believe until I find convincing evidence.

 

[Petros2015]

That is not what I was seeking. I was seeking Bigfoot. You claimed I will find what I seek, that is untrue. If I seek Bigfoot and never find him what should I conclude? The only reasonable conclusion is that I don't know if Bigfoot exists and should not believe until I find convincing evidence.

Ok. Well then, let's back this up a bit and pretend for a moment.

Are you seeking BigFoot? Or are you just thinking about seeking BigFoot? There's a pretty big difference.
Seeking is an action, not a thought about taking the action of seeking.
So...

#1 What gave you the idea that there might be a BigFoot to seek?

#2 How do you plan to go about seeking BigFoot?

 

[Halbhh]

You can test to see if it works. How do you know that the words or instructions you tested are from a god?

You (me I mean) don't (most likely). Until later when perhaps one day you test a different instruction and get a result (repeated even!!) that could only be from God, as no other explanation is even possible to imagine. I have a pretty good ability to come up with alternative hypotheses, so I needed a lot of repeated outcomes (amazing stuff often) in varied circumstances and conditions to believe in some of these things that were happening weren't just luck or some weird personal ability of myself somehow. Now this isn't quite what faith is -- faith is more like a relationship. But it is at least a good path to get to a better place!! That's definitely 100% for sure. And for me, being in that better place, after many years, might have helped me seek God finally.

 

[Kenny'sID]

No because there is insufficient evidence to do so. My point was that you won't believe in Allah or Bigfoot by the same faith you believe in your God. Why? You have the same evidence for both Allah and Yahweh.

I understood your point completely.

I am sorry if wanting sufficient evidence to believe a claim is special arrangements to you or God. The fact is no one can choose to believe something they are not convinced is true.

No need to apologise.

Evidently there are those who may be unconvincable.

How do you then get to the Christian God? Also, we know the universe exists by a process not by accident. The ultimate beginning is in question.

Because one, there is only one God, and to me it makes perfect sense that almighty God who did all the creating would leave his people with a word about who he is, who we are, and what the plan is. Actually, a lot of this is about what makes the most sense.

No one puts forth that everything came from nothing.

The big bang pretty much states just that.

Just because you cannot think of a different reason everything exists does not mean that the reason does not exist.

Or why bother with a different reason if we are thoroughly convinced already.