Are there sincere seekers in hell?

[Clizby WampusCat]

Are there sincere seekers that would believe if they had convincing evidence for the Christian god? My thought is that God says:

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. 1 Tim 2:1-7 ESV.

and:

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Mat 7:7-12 NIV

If these are true, why would God allow a person to not believe if they would believe if they just had convincing evidence and are asking for that evidence? I was one of those people when I was questioning my faith. Why did God not give me or many others the evidence they required to believe. All I was looking for was that evidence and I would have stayed a Christian. Why did God not provide it if the above verses are true?

 

[Tolworth John]

Are there sincere seekers that would believe if they had convincing evidence for the Christian god? My thought is that God says:

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. 1 Tim 2:1-7 ESV.

and:

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Mat 7:7-12 NIV

If these are true, why would God allow a person to not believe if that would believe if they just had convincing evidence and are asking for that evidence? I was one of those people when I was questioning my faith. Why did God not give me or many others the evidence they required to believe. All I was looking for was that evidence and I would have stayed a Christian. Why did God not provide it if the above verses are true?

No, Hebrews 9:27 it is given for men to die once, after this comes judgement.

Alll Jesus's parables about judgement make it clear that one is judged on what one decided about Jesus in this life.

There is no second chance.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

No, Hebrews 9:27 it is given for men to die once, after this comes judgement.

Alll Jesus's parables about judgement make it clear that one is judged on what one decided about Jesus in this life.

There is no second chance.

I think you misunderstood my post. I am asking why some sincere seekers who only need convincing evidence for Gods existence do not get that evidence. I am asking about this life not the next.

 

[Tolworth John]

I think you misunderstood my post. I am asking why some sincere seekers who only need convincing evidence for Gods existence do not get that evidence. I am asking about this life not the next.

I responded as much to your posts title as to its content.

Jesus promised that those who seek will find, knock and it would be opened.

So is a seeker really sincere if they don't find?
Also in who'se time frame does this happen?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I responded as much to your posts title as to its content.

Jesus promised that those who seek will find, knock and it would be opened.

So is a seeker really sincere if they don't find?

I can say for myself that I was sincere and wanted to remain a Christian. If you want to say this was my fault some how that is a common response; However, I will know that it is not true. If God is real I still want to know.

Also in who'se time frame does this happen?

As you said it must happen in the persons lifetime.

 

[Tree of Life]

If these are true, why would God allow a person to not believe if that would believe if they just had convincing evidence and are asking for that evidence? I was one of those people when I was questioning my faith. Why did God not give me or many others the evidence they required to believe. All I was looking for was that evidence and I would have stayed a Christian. Why did God not provide it if the above verses are true?

From the entire testimony of Scripture I would say that there's more to the story. The Bible also teaches that "No one understands; no one seeks for God." (Romans 3:11). The Bible teaches that because of our sinful nature that all people are at enmity with God (Romans 8:7-8). Unbelief is not the result of poor evidence, but the result of a hardened heart that does not want to believe. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus Jesus even says that "If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead." (Luke 16:31). In other words, even if these unbelievers were to encounter someone who had risen from the dead (an amazing piece of evidence), they still would not believe. You yourself have suggested elsewhere that an apparent miracle - even Jesus rising from the dead - is not evidence that God performed the miracle. You'll always be able to find some other way to interpret the evidence. So, in summary, fallen human beings hate God and do not want to believe. No amount of evidence will convince them to believe unless God changes their hearts and minds. So what do the verses that you've quoted mean?

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. 1 Tim 2:1-7 ESV.

"All" here does not mean "all without exception". It means "all without distinction". You can see this from Paul's previous uses of "all" in the very same passage. He urges that prayers be made for "all people". This means that we should pray for "all kinds of people". He doesn't mean we should literally pray for every single individual person. He then gives specific examples of kinds of people - kings, people in high positions, etc... God desires "all kinds" of people to be saved - rich, poor, Jew, Gentile, slave, master, men, women, etc...

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Mat 7:7-12 NIV

This is certainly true. All who truly seek God from the heart will find him. God doesn't hide himself. It pleases him to reveal himself to those who seek him. But, from the testimony of other parts of Scripture - even from Jesus' own teachings - we can only truly seek him if he first gives us a heart to do so. We can only seek him if he first seeks us. For those who truly seek God, he will reveal himself. All are invited and called to seek him. But not all truly seek him. If a person does not find God it's because they haven't truly sought him. Perhaps they've sought certain advantages associated with God instead - eternal life, power, wealth, health, answered prayers, etc. It can appear as if someone is seeking God when they're really only seeking his advantages. So a person can appear very religious and still not be seeking God and thus fail to find him.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

From the entire testimony of Scripture I would say that there's more to the story. The Bible also teaches that "No one understands; no one seeks for God." (Romans 3:11). The Bible teaches that because of our sinful nature that all people are at enmity with God (Romans 8:7-8). Unbelief is not the result of poor evidence, but the result of a hardened heart that does not want to believe.

This is not true then because I want to know if God is real. I do not have a hardened heart in this area. I want to knw what is true, not what I want to believe is true. I am evidence that these verses are not true.

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus Jesus even says that "If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead." (Luke 16:31). In other words, even if these unbelievers were to encounter someone who had risen from the dead (an amazing piece of evidence), they still would not believe. You yourself have suggested elsewhere that an apparent miracle - even Jesus rising from the dead - is not evidence that God performed the miracle. You'll always be able to find some other way to interpret the evidence. So, in summary, fallen human beings hate God and do not want to believe. No amount of evidence will convince them to believe unless God changes their hearts and minds. So what do the verses that you've quoted mean?

Are you saying that God has no evidence that would convince me? We don't choose our beliefs, we are convinced by the evidence or we are not. There is no choice in the matter. Surely God would know what would convince me. So why does he not convince me?

"All" here does not mean "all without exception". It means "all without distinction". You can see this from Paul's previous uses of "all" in the very same passage. He urges that prayers be made for "all people". This means that we should pray for "all kinds of people". He doesn't mean we should literally pray for every single individual person. He then gives specific examples of kinds of people - kings, people in high positions, etc... God desires "all kinds" of people to be saved - rich, poor, Jew, Gentile, slave, master, men, women, etc...

So God does not want all people to come to believe?

This is certainly true. All who truly seek God from the heart will find him. God doesn't hide himself. It pleases him to reveal himself to those who seek him.

I am evidence that this is not true.

But, from the testimony of other parts of Scripture - even from Jesus' own teachings - we can only truly seek him if he first gives us a heart to do so.

So now its Jesus fault? How am I to blame then if I don't believe?

We can only seek him if he first seeks us. For those who truly seek God, he will reveal himself. All are invited and called to seek him.

I thought you said that all does not mean all? Again, I truly sought after God for a couple of years. I was never convinced. I still want to know if he exists.

But not all truly seek him. If a person does not find God it's because they haven't truly sought him. Perhaps they've sought certain advantages associated with God instead - eternal life, power, wealth, health, answered prayers, etc. It can appear as if someone is seeking God when they're really only seeking his advantages. So a person can appear very religious and still not be seeking God and thus fail to find him.

This is/was not the case for me. Which for me gives good evidence that the bible is not true.

This is a devastating blow to the truthfulness of the bible. It says true seekers will find evidence for God or come to a belief in some way. Many true seekers do not find this true. The only response is that we never really sought after God. We are to blame. Well, that can let the believer sleep at night but for those of us who truly sought after God and were never convinced, we know the bible is in error here.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Are there sincere seekers that would believe if they had convincing evidence for the Christian god?

I guess I can see this playing out in at least two different ways. And there may be more than that depending on what comes to mind.


1) There is the aspect of God where he reveals Himself in nature and the creation. By that stand point you could be in trouble, especially from what we know today about origins of life stuff, like from Hugh Ross etc.


2) Your life is not over. There is always the possibility of turning to God in any given crisis or need, and there is always the possibility of Him revealing himself then.


3) The Children of Israel. At different times God's presence, Glory was revealed to Humanity according to the Bible yet it did not keep them from sinning, disobeying etc. e.g. Adam and Eve, the Children of Israel etc. I actually find the Children of Israel quite interesting because it looks to me that they found a way to rationalize things like the Manna following from heaven everyday to feed them, the cloud and pillar of fire that led them. They seem to have accepted this sort of thing as normal, and still believed freaked after Moses was away on mount Sinai the 40 days where they made the Golden calf. And it is that kind of phenomenon that should be payed attention to. Our perceptions and realities are not absolutes but very malleable based on our beliefs, what data points we consider, vs. those that we do not want to consider. For many freaking out after Moses has been gone weeks is very normal, while a Christian of today might say "It is still magically raining bread from heaven, and we still got water drink and everything we need so we are still OK".


To some degree the term "habituation" in zoology sort of explains this behavior. Living organisms grow use to things in their environment. If you had something like a visible glory cloud of Shekinah glory appearing regularly around you at some point it might seem normal like a sun rise or sunset etc.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Are there sincere seekers that would believe if they had convincing evidence for the Christian god? My thought is that God says:

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. 1 Tim 2:1-7 ESV.

and:

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Mat 7:7-12 NIV

If these are true, why would God allow a person to not believe if they would believe if they just had convincing evidence and are asking for that evidence? I was one of those people when I was questioning my faith. Why did God not give me or many others the evidence they required to believe. All I was looking for was that evidence and I would have stayed a Christian. Why did God not provide it if the above verses are true?

Perhaps it’s just not your time yet. God is not finished with you. Many people don’t believe until later in life.

 

[Tree of Life]

This is not true then because I want to know if God is real. I do not have a hardened heart in this area. I want to knw what is true, not what I want to believe is true. I am evidence that these verses are not true.

Paul is not saying that absolutely no one seeks for God. He is saying that no ones seeks for God on his own power. God must first awaken our hearts to him in order for us to seek him. So either God has done this to you and you will come to believe eventually or you are deluding yourself.

Are you saying that God has no evidence that would convince me? We don't choose our beliefs, we are convinced by the evidence or we are not. There is no choice in the matter. Surely God would know what would convince me. So why does he not convince me?

If God wanted to give you faith it wouldn't be hard for him to do so. Nothing is difficult for God. But God also does not owe you anything special. Many people are convinced based on way less than what you may be demanding. Why should God do something special just for you? Especially since you do not even seem to know what you're asking for. What are you even looking for when you ask for evidence for God's existence? What would satisfy you?

So God does not want all people to come to believe?

God does not choose to save every individual.

So now its Jesus fault? How am I to blame then if I don't believe?

If anyone doesn't believe it's because they have hardened their heart against God. Only we are to blame.

This is a devastating blow to the truthfulness of the bible. It says true seekers will find evidence for God or come to a belief in some way. Many true seekers do not find this true. The only response is that we never really sought after God. We are to blame. Well, that can let the believer sleep at night but for those of us who truly sought after God and were never convinced, we know the bible is in error here.

Then I would suggest you move along.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I guess I can see this playing out in at least two different ways. And there may be more than that depending on what comes to mind.


1) There is the aspect of God where he reveals Himself in nature and the creation. By that stand point you could be in trouble, especially from what we know today about origins of life stuff, like from Hugh Ross etc.

I don't find looking at creation convincing. We know how much of nature works. There is no reason to think that god is involved in the areas we don't know yet.

2) Your life is not over. There is always the possibility of turning to God in any given crisis or need, and there is always the possibility of Him revealing himself then.

I agree I could come to believe again before I die. But I find it hard to believe that no true seeker never died in that state, as a true believer.

3) The Children of Israel. At different times God's presence, Glory was revealed to Humanity according to the Bible yet it did not keep them from sinning, disobeying etc. e.g. Adam and Eve, the Children of Israel etc. I actually find the Children of Israel quite interesting because it looks to me that they found a way to rationalize things like the Manna following from heaven everyday to feed them, the cloud and pillar of fire that led them. They seem to have accepted this sort of thing as normal, and still believed freaked after Moses was away on mount Sinai the 40 days where they made the Golden calf. And it is that kind of phenomenon that should be payed attention to. Our perceptions and realities are not absolutes but very malleable based on our beliefs, what data points we consider, vs. those that we do not want to consider. For many freaking out after Moses has been gone weeks is very normal, while a Christian of today might say "It is still magically raining bread from heaven, and we still got water drink and everything we need so we are still OK".


To some degree the term "habituation" in zoology sort of explains this behavior. Living organisms grow use to things in their environment.

Can God convince me he exists or not?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Perhaps it’s just not your time yet. God is not finished with you. Many people don’t believe until later in life.

Maybe, but do you think that no true seeker ever died truly seeking?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Paul is not saying that absolutely no one seeks for God. He is saying that no ones seeks for God on his own power. God must first awaken our hearts to him in order for us to seek him. So either God has done this to you and you will come to believe eventually or you are deluding yourself.

So you are saying that God decides if I believe or not. Then why do I get blamed and punished for not believing?

If God wanted to give you faith it wouldn't be hard for him to do so. Nothing is difficult for God. But God also does not owe you anything special. Many people are convinced based on way less than what you may be demanding. Why should God do something special just for you? Especially since you do not even seem to know what you're asking for. What are you even looking for when you ask for evidence for God's existence? What would satisfy you?

I simply want to know if God exists. Why is this a demand? Isn't this what God wants me to do?

I don't know what would convince me but God should know.

God does not choose to save every individual.

Why not? Then he is choosing to condemn some without giving them enough evidence to believe. Seems unfair.

If anyone doesn't believe it's because they have hardened their heart against God. Only we are to blame.

This is untrue and I am evidence of this. I suspect I am one of millions for which this is true.

Then I would suggest you move along.

So you don't care if I believe in God or not?

 

[Tree of Life]

So you are saying that God decides if I believe or not. Then why do I get blamed and punished for not believing?

Your unbelief is your own problem. God saves people from unbelief as a gift of grace. God did not make you an unbeliever. That's what we've all made of ourselves.

Why not? Then he is choosing to condemn some without giving them enough evidence to believe. Seems unfair.

According to the Bible we already have all the evidence we need. Lack of evidence is not the issue. But you're unwilling to consider what the Bible has to say on this matter so I suggest you just drop it and move on to something else.

So you don't care if I believe in God or not?

It does not appear to me that you have a genuine desire to understand, but rather to score some points for the atheist side. If you don't care to consider the claims of Scripture then there's not much I can do to help.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Your unbelief is your own problem. God saves people from unbelief as a gift of grace. God did not make you an unbeliever. That's what we've all made of ourselves.

These are contradictory statements. How can unbelief be my problem when God is the one that gives me that belief?

According to the Bible we already have all the evidence we need.

This is obviously false. We don't choose what we believe to be true. Can you choose to believe something you are not convinced of?

Lack of evidence is not the issue. But you're unwilling to consider what the Bible has to say on this matter so I suggest you just drop it and move on to something else.

Why? I am seeking the truth. You can not believe me and call me a liar but that does not make it so. Do you think every honest seeker that is not convinced is a liar?

It does not appear to me that you have a genuine desire to understand, but rather to score some points for the atheist side. If you don't care to consider the claims of Scripture then there's not much I can do to help.

Ok, then I will find someone else that won't call me a liar. Thanks.

Notice it is not me that is unwilling to seek it is Tree of Life that is telling me not to seek.

 

[Tree of Life]

These are contradictory statements. How can unbelief be my problem when God is the one that gives me that belief?

You may fall into poverty because of your own decisions. If a rich person chooses to help you out by extending some grace, that's wonderful. But if they don't, it's not their fault that you're in poverty.

This is obviously false. We don't choose what we believe to be true. Can you choose to believe something you are not convinced of?

If the Bible is obviously false to you then you're not in a position where you're able to seek God.

Why? I am seeking the truth. You can not believe me and call me a liar but that does not make it so. Do you think every honest seeker that is not convinced is a liar?

Just because you say you're seeking the truth why should I believe you? The Bible says no one seeks for God. The Bible also says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom - not the end result of searching for wisdom. If you're unwilling to begin with the fear of the Lord then the Bible says you're not seeking God at all.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Maybe, but do you think that no true seeker ever died truly seeking?

No because he who seeks finds. God will not forsake those who seek Him provided they abide in Christ after they believe.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

You may fall into poverty because of your own decisions. If a rich person chooses to help you out by extending some grace, that's wonderful. But if they don't, it's not their fault that you're in poverty.

You said it is Gods fault. Does God give me the ability to believe or not?

If the Bible is obviously false to you then you're not in a position where you're able to seek God.

Then show me the bible is true. If you cannot, then how will I ever seek god properly?

Just because you say you're seeking the truth why should I believe you? The Bible says no one seeks for God.

If no one seeks for God then how does anyone find that he exists?

The Bible also says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom - not the end result of searching for wisdom. If you're unwilling to begin with the fear of the Lord then the Bible says you're not seeking God at all.

So many rules. I am supposed to believe the bible is true, I am supposed to fear god, I am supposed believe due to creation etc. etc. No matter what I do you will find a way to tell me it is my fault. If only I do something I am not currently doing I would believe.

I sought God with all my heart and strength for a long time as I was losing my faith. It was painful and life altering, it was not fun. So you can tell me I never sincerely sought after gods existence but I know I did and I know your book is false. God may exist, but the bible is not true. You need to come to terms with this issue. I am only one of millions.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

No because he who seeks finds. God will not forsake those who seek Him provided they abide in Christ after they believe.

Well, if this is your belief then ok, but I know this is a false belief from personal experience.

 

[Tree of Life]

God may exist, but the bible is not true. You need to come to terms with this issue. I am only one of millions.

So your goal in this thread is to make the point that the Bible is not true and that the God of the Bible does not exist?