Are there limits to what healing we can receive?

[SavedByGrace3]

I'm sorry, so very sorry, but this is exactly why believers are sick. Our unbelief is not only fostered, but demanded by people claiming to be believers, while arguing against the Bible. Jesus couldn't do any miracles in his own home town because of unbelief. He can't do any in current Christianity for the same reason. Meanwhile the world goes to Hell, in part because we refuse to believe.

The Holy Spirit more than reminded me of something that happened in my own life a long time ago, and impressed on me His longing to find people who would allow Him to do the impossible. I'm still mired in my own unbelief, but I want out of it. I think that we are going to need to fully believe soon, or die miserably, (at least the first death). I hope I'm wrong about that.
I'm sorry, but I'm losing patience for religious unbelief. (including my own), It's straight from the devil and it's killing people.

I hate to agree... but I do.
I try very hard not to be obtrusive on this subject because I do not want to offend. If it was anything other than the suffering and death of our Lord Jesus, I would not push it. But when looking at the torment He endured on our behalf, I cannot be silent. This passage is about the body and blood of Jesus our Lord. I will not diminish that precious. Word.
By His stripes we were healed. If people fail to appreciate that and even go so far as to deny it, then the judgment of the curse remains. They are subject to weakness, sickness, and even an early death. When you take the bread, remember why you are doing it.



Here is a song I wrote almost 38 years ago when the Lord revealed these truths to me.


Have you discerned the Lord's body?
Do you know what the word of God said?
Do you know what it means when you take it?
Is it more than just wine and bread?
Do you know why the Lord's body was scourged and nailed to a tree?
He was taking your sins and your sickness
And a curse for us became He

So if you feel sick and feel tired
And your body is nearly dead.
Take some good advice and go find out
What it means when you take the bread
And like the Jews who came out of Egypt
Who ate the lamb before they were led
Not a feeble one will be with you
All because you take of the bread

You have read where it says that you were healed
You won't find where it says you might be
It's a thing that happened at Calvery
When they nailed the Lord to the tree
Himself He took on all of our sickness
And bore our infirmity
So believe it just as He said it
And be healed forever and free!

Please do not treat the body of the Lord as if it were a common thing. Please do not deny the suffering He endured for your health.
I pray believers shun this terrible error, and hold fast to the promise the Jesus made good to us.

 

[Strong in Him]

Exactly the same as sin...

Not at all.
You can't repent of a headache. Israelites were not commanded to offer sacrifices for illness - one pigeon for a cold, three for a stomach bug, 14 for cancer and if you are born with an illness, too bad.
Even severe illness and disability cannot separate us from God. Sin can and does. Sickness needs a healer; sin needs a Saviour.

Do you still sin ???

Sadly, yes, sometimes; do you?

 

[Strong in Him]

Please do not treat the body of the Lord as if it were a common thing. Please do not deny the suffering He endured for your health.
I pray believers shun this terrible error, and hold fast to the promise the Jesus made good to us.

If that is addressed to me, I assure you that I do not treat my Lord's suffering and death as though it was a common thing.
But he did not go through all that agony so that I could be physically healthy. If he had and if I had always denied it; why did he heal me?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

People demand if healing is included in the atonement, then why are not all believers healthy?
It is a common question, easily answered, and has been answered. If we fail to see why Jesus endured the suffering He did, or if we refuse to see it and even go so far as to deny it... then the judgment of the curse of the law remains on us.
I asked the Lord how I should approach this when people are prayed for and also properly taught about healing and health.
His answer came immediately and was very direct.
"It is your job to pray and believe. That is what I told you to do. That is your business. It is my job to make it happen. That is my business. You take care of your business, and I will take care of mine."
I came away with the thought... "mind your own business." A very terse "mind your own business."
Why people may not receive is between them and the Lord. You don't get to stick your nose into that. There may be things that are going on in their lives that He is not going to share with you.
So we need to stick to our business. Believe, pray, and walk away.
In the case of this current discussion, it is time to walk away... I do not want to give people the opportunity to continue (dangerously) to refute and even deny His suffering.
By His Stripes You WERE healed.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Not at all.
You can't repent of a headache. Israelites were not commanded to offer sacrifices for illness - one pigeon for a cold, three for a stomach bug, 14 for cancer and if you are born with an illness, too bad.
Even severe illness and disability cannot separate us from God. Sin can and does. Sickness needs a healer; sin needs a Saviour.

Sadly, yes, sometimes; do you?

Yes... and we both get sick as well...

But back to the Scripture - what do you think Isaiah 53 means, particularly the parts I marked in red ???

 

[Strong in Him]

People demand if healing is included in the atonement, then why are not all believers healthy?
It is a common question, easily answered, and has been answered.

And yet there have been, and maybe still are, Christians who've believed and accepted that, who are still sick/disabled.
While some Christians, who have never believed it, or maybe never even heard it, are perfectly healthy.

If we can hold a Gospel service/preach the Gospel to a non believer, they believe and say they want to accept Jesus as their Saviour, pray and are prayed for, they have eternal life. Immediately. Not "maybe next week", or "well no, you haven't enough faith to have eternal life" or any other condition that we may think of - they have eternal life. (Not getting into the question of 'what if they fall away and commit mass murder?' The point is they are saved.
So if they have a chronic illness, or even just a headache, when they pray, they should receive physical healing at the same time that they receive salvation. No ifs or buts - if it is part of the "package", then if you receive one, you get both.
But I have read of cancer patients who believe in and confess Jesus, come to faith and get baptised, get weaker and die. Though not before their faith, joy and peace has been seen by others on the ward or who are caring for them. THAT has been their testimony - that though their bodies waste away, that inwardly, they were being renewed day by day; that they are not professing faith in God because of what he can do for them.
When we get to heaven, we may be surprised to find the effect that that faith had on others.

If we fail to see why Jesus endured the suffering He did, or if we refuse to see it and even go so far as to deny it... then the judgment of the curse of the law remains on us.

I'm not accusing you of anything, but personally I'd say that it's the doctrine, "Jesus died to make me healthy", that cheapens his sacrifice and what he went through.

"It is your job to pray and believe. That is what I told you to do. That is your business. It is my job to make it happen. That is my business. You take care of your business, and I will take care of mine."

Exactly.
We can pray and ask our heavenly Father for healing; I'm not denying that. We can't demand when it will happen, nor should we say "it already has, just believe it."
Healing is HIS business; in his time and he knows what he is doing.

Why people may not receive is between them and the Lord. You don't get to stick your nose into that.

But you've been suggesting that it is part of the atonement - so people should be healed at the same time that they get forgiven, receive eternal life, the Holy Spirit and acceptance as God's children.
Otherwise, we would be saying that Jesus' work is incomplete. Yes, Mrs X has become a new creation, has been saved, has given up bad habits, is a child of God and has been baptised in water and the Spirit - but she still has the brain tumour that Jesus died for.

In the case of this current discussion, it is time to walk away... I do not want to give people the avenue to continue dangerously, to refute and even deny His suffering.

I don't believe anyone is denying his suffering - I'm certainly not.
I just won't cheapen it by saying that my Lord went through all that just so that my physical, temporary body might last a few more years and be free from illness.

By His Stripes You WERE healed.

I was healed from M.E when a lovely lady, who always said she didn't really believe, but came to church for the company, suddenly said, when we were talking, "I want to heal you", reached over and touched my shoulders.
I was so full of faith that I burst out laughing. I've had no symptoms from that day to this (14 years.)
I went to a number of healing services, run by well known Christians, who rebuked my illness and said I was well, and should believe I was well.
I remained ill.

Those are the facts.

 

[jiminpa]

It's not about believing in faith as an entity, (one of the weaknesses of WoF), but about being so immersed in and trusting so much in God that you know He is faithful to His word. Christianity was replaced over a millennium ago by a caricature that has turned it into just another religion of man. The centuries of "did God really say," (same old lie), have taken their toll. It's time to reclaim faith in God and what He inspired in the scriptures.

I say this as an invitation to fall into God's arms.

 

[Strong in Him]

It's not about believing in faith as an entity, (one of the weaknesses of WoF), but about being so immersed in and trusting so much in God that you know He is faithful to His word.

I do.
He has shown me that many times over the years.

Christianity was replaced over a millennium ago by a caricature that has turned it into just another religion of man.

Right - so the Apostles taught, "Jesus died for your sickness" then? Peter and John went to the Beautiful Gate and said "In the name of Jesus, believe that he died so that you could walk"?
No one taught that in the NT.

I say this as an invitation to fall into God's arms.

Why are you judging that I have ever left them?

 

[jiminpa]

And yet there have been, and maybe still are, Christians who've believed and accepted that, who are still sick/disabled.
While some Christians, who have never believed it, or maybe never even heard it, are perfectly healthy.

If we can hold a Gospel service/preach the Gospel to a non believer, they believe and say they want to accept Jesus as their Saviour, pray and are prayed for, they have eternal life. Immediately. Not "maybe next week", or "well no, you haven't enough faith to have eternal life" or any other condition that we may think of - they have eternal life. (Not getting into the question of 'what if they fall away and commit mass murder?' The point is they are saved.
So if they have a chronic illness, or even just a headache, when they pray, they should receive physical healing at the same time that they receive salvation. No ifs or buts - if it is part of the "package", then if you receive one, you get both.
But I have read of cancer patients who believe in and confess Jesus, come to faith and get baptised, get weaker and die. Though not before their faith, joy and peace has been seen by others on the ward or who are caring for them. THAT has been their testimony - that though their bodies waste away, that inwardly, they were being renewed day by day; that they are not professing faith in God because of what he can do for them.
When we get to heaven, we may be surprised to find the effect that that faith had on others.

I'm not accusing you of anything, but personally I'd say that it's the doctrine, "Jesus died to make me healthy", that cheapens his sacrifice and what he went through.

Exactly.
We can pray and ask our heavenly Father for healing; I'm not denying that. We can't demand when it will happen, nor should we say "it already has, just believe it."
Healing is HIS business; in his time and he knows what he is doing.


But you've been suggesting that it is part of the atonement - so people should be healed at the same time that they get forgiven, receive eternal life, the Holy Spirit and acceptance as God's children.
Otherwise, we would be saying that Jesus' work is incomplete. Yes, Mrs X has become a new creation, has been saved, has given up bad habits, is a child of God and has been baptised in water and the Spirit - but she still has the brain tumour that Jesus died for.


I don't believe anyone is denying his suffering - I'm certainly not.
I just won't cheapen it by saying that my Lord went through all that just so that my physical, temporary body might last a few more years and be free from illness.

I was healed from M.E when a lovely lady, who always said she didn't really believe, but came to church for the company, suddenly said, when we were talking, "I want to heal you", reached over and touched my shoulders.
I was so full of faith that I burst out laughing. I've had no symptoms from that day to this (14 years.)
I went to a number of healing services, run by well known Christians, who rebuked my illness and said I was well, and should believe I was well.
I remained ill.

Those are the facts.

Those are facts, yes. Here are even more factual facts. God's word says we are healed, period. It just does. God's word says that lack of faith can limit what we experience. Facts! God's word says not to lean on our understanding. So which facts should we trust, our facts, or God's facts?

 

[jiminpa]

Why are you judging that I have ever left them?

Why are you judging whether or not I'm judging? I'm not your judge. I am observing that your words and God's word do not match, and stating my observations. Your words seem to indicate that You trust God in some ways, but not others. I'm no one to judge that, since I'm far more guilty of it than you, but I do want to encourage all I can to trust God over our own understanding. I am sorry if that is offensive. I find the unbelief preached in the church and on this forum, (by many) to be offensive.

Edit: I'm not judging I'm disagreeing. There is a difference.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

WIthout question, the most important things is not health... it is believing God regardless of what happens or what does not happen. The most important thing is to please God.
This is our faith stance to please God:

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
6. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Regardless of what happens, we are to believe that He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. Reading to the end of Hebrews 11, we see an important truth along these lines. There were people in the OT, just like us, who believed for things. But in the end, they never received those promises. They died without receiving.

Hebrews 11:39 KJV
39. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

This is an example for us. Do not back up on the word of God regardless. If you are on your deathbed and the Doctors say there is no hope. Even then, it is your place to believe God. Believe Him and please Him. Continue to believe God. Confess his works of healing. Confess the truth of the word. It is not about us. In the end it is not even about healing. It is about Him, His word, and His sacrifice.

Hebrews 10:38 KJV
38. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Trust Him and thank Him for your healing. Praise Him for doing this. By His Stripes You WERE healed.

 

[Strong in Him]

Yes... and we both get sick as well...

But back to the Scripture - what do you think Isaiah 53 means, particularly the parts I marked in red ???

It says, and means, that the suffering servant - Jesus - died for our sins.

Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Our relationship with God was healed; we were reconciled to him through Jesus' death.

For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Matthew quoted verses from Isaiah, and say that they prophesied Jesus' healing ministry.
"Jesus drove out evil spirits and healed the sick. THIS was to fulfil what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah," Matthew 8:17
No one wrote, or said, Jesus was crucified and died, this was to fulfil what was written through the prophet Isaiah, so you ARE healed of your sickness.

 

[Strong in Him]

Why are you judging whether or not I'm judging? I'm not your judge. I am observing that your words and God's word do not match, and stating my observations.

I apologise.
Yet the words "I say this as an invitation to fall into God's arms", suggested to me that you think I had left them/am not in them.

 

[jiminpa]

WIthout question, the most important things is not health... it is believing God regardless of what happens or what does not happen. The most important thing is to please God.
This is our faith stance to please God:

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
6. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Regardless of what happens, we are to believe that He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. Reading to the end of Hebrews 11, we see an important truth along these lines. There were people in the OT, just like us, who believed for things. But in the end, they never received those promises. They died without receiving.

Hebrews 11:39 KJV
39. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

This is an example for us. Do not back up on the word of God regardless. If you are on your deathbed and the Doctors say there is no hope. Even then, it is your place to believe God. Believe Him and please Him. Continue to believe God. Confess his works of healing. Confess the truth of the word. It is not about us. In the end it is not even about healing. It is about Him, His word, and His sacrifice.

Hebrews 10:38 KJV
38. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Trust Him and thank Him for your healing. Praise Him for doing this. By His Stripes You WERE healed.

My wife died of cancer, years ago now. She believed to her last that God was going to heal her, in this world. I had to make the decision to let her go. Humanly, it wouldn't have changed her time of death by more than a few seconds, and I am not carrying any guilt.

God's word still says what it says. God's word is still more reliable than my experience.

 

[Strong in Him]

WIthout question, the most important things is not health... it is believing God regardless of what happens or what does not happen.

Yes, exactly.
Job said, "though he slay me, I will trust him". Shadrach and co said "our God is able to save us from this fire, but if not, we will not bow down to your god."

Trust Him and thank Him for your healing. Praise Him for doing this.

I do - frequently.
I HAVE been healed from M.E, in the way that I've described. I have had no symptoms for 14 years.
I still do not accept your doctrine and interpretation of Scripture.

I used to - once. I had many allergies as a teenager and, for a while, believed, and thanked God, that the atonement was about my physical healing.
I remained very unwell. Then I concluded that if I was not healed by Jesus' death, then how could I know that I was forgiven? I didn't believe that God loved me, because I was not healed.
In one of her books, Jennifer Rees-Larcombe says that when she was a teenager, they heard a preacher say "Real Christians don't have problems". One of her friends in her youth group concluded, "then I can't be a real Christian", went home and killed himself.
Hopefully, we are the only 2 people who have suffered from such a teaching - but I doubt it.

 

[jiminpa]

I apologise.
Yet the words "I say this as an invitation to fall into God's arms", suggested to me that you think I had left them/am not in them.

I'll let you know when I know someone who is perfectly rested in God's arms in every single area of their life, yet the invitation from God remains.

 

[jiminpa]

I'm loving this discussion, including the adult conflict and resolution where we handled our potentially hurt feelings by discussion.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

My wife died of cancer, years ago now. She believed to her last that God was going to heal her, in this world. I had to make the decision to let her go. Humanly, it wouldn't have changed her time of death by more than a few seconds, and I am not carrying any guilt.

God's word still says what it says. God's word is still more reliable than my experience.

That my saint is the kind of faith that pleases God. I am sorry for your wife. I am sure you miss her. Blessings to you for your faith and glorifying God. Your testimony is an encouragement to us all.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Yes, exactly.
Job said, "though he slay me, I will trust him". Shadrach and co said "our God is able to save us from this fire, but if not, we will not bow down to your god."

I do - frequently.
I HAVE been healed from M.E, in the way that I've described. I have had no symptoms for 14 years.
I still do not accept your doctrine and interpretation of Scripture.

I used to - once. I had many allergies as a teenager and, for a while, believed, and thanked God, that the atonement was about my physical healing.
I remained very unwell. Then I concluded that if I was not healed by Jesus' death, then how could I know that I was forgiven? I didn't believe that God loved me, because I was not healed.
In one of her books, Jennifer Rees-Larcombe says that when she was a teenager, they heard a preacher say "Real Christians don't have problems". One of her friends in her youth group concluded, "then I can't be a real Christian", went home and killed himself.
Hopefully, we are the only 2 people who have suffered from such a teaching - but I doubt it.

Again, a very simple and scriptural answer.
We walk by faith and not by sight. We stand on the Word of God to the end. That pleases God. Let God be true and (the testimony) every man a liar. If you stand by His word and not your worldly testimony, you will sometimes appear to be a liar. Nobody is saying that Christians will always receive healing. The point is, what are you believing in your heart all the while? Are you standing on His word, testifying of His works, and glorifying Him regardless? Or are you turning against Him and His word and reverting back to the testimony of the flesh? Stand on His word till the end. With your dying breath, proclaim His word. "I am healed by the stripes of Jesus. "He took upon Himself my weaknesses and bore my sicknesses." You may not be experiencing the healing that is yours, and when you meet Him, He may explain it to you. But till then, stand on His word without wavering. It will be accounted to you as righteousness, and you will please God in doing it.

 

[jiminpa]

That my saint is the kind of faith that pleases God. I am sorry for your wife. I am sure you miss her. Blessings to you for your faith and glorifying God. Your testimony is an encouragement to us all.

Yet when it comes to it, my words and what I act on don't match. I am working on it. God wants us to partner with Him in all of His promises, I'm sure of that. I'm really not good at it though. I have some lifelong trust issues that I project to Him.