Are there limits to what healing we can receive?

[Carl Emerson]

OK here's my take on this.

I have had the honour of partnering with Jesus to see folks healed and delivered - His work not mine.

I believe faith is a gift.

I believe Jesus could only do what He saw the Father doing.

Faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ.

So first we have to be careful not to attribute faith to ourselves.

This is easier for folks like me who have been saved out of a ruined life and given a second chance as I can't attribute anything to myself anyway.

So first off there is no limit to what He can do and will do for the beloved - but when is the question.

All our sickness and disease has been atoned for - but receiving healing is in His time.

Faith is not a mindset, it is a heart knowing concerning what He has personally said to the individual who prays, or the sick who receive, or both.

So when I encourage others to walk in The Way and see Him move - I emphasise the first priority is to learn to see and hear what He is doing.

Some are healed simply because God chooses to display His Glory.

Some are healed before they believe and then come to faith in Him because they are undeniably touched by His spirit.

I remember a Lady, who was not a believer, attending the Anglican 'Order of St. Luke. Healing meeting in Christchurch who had a short leg and wore a built up shoe. She went forward for prayer and limped back to her seat because her leg was healed and the shoe was now too high. Then someone asked her if she wanted to commit her life to Jesus and become a believer seeing what He had done. So the faith of the individual is not a factor in all cases.

Naaman who reluctantly bathed in the Jordan seven times certainly had no faith and raged against the idea of bathing in the muddy Jordan.

He believed God could heal but wanted it in His time and His way. God had other plans.

So Yes... God can heal anything, but how and when is His business.

 

[Strong in Him]

Not in this case the Greek word is angelos (angel in English) - used 170 times in the NT - never once as a description of a disease.

Satan sent a messenger to Paul - a disease.
I doubt we'll agree on this, but it doesn't really matter anyway.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the Devil (Acts 10:38), God does not use the works of the devil against His children.

God is with his children IN sickness and can work through it to bring glory to himself.
"IN all things God works for the good of those who love him."
Plenty of people suffer/have suffered illness or disability and done things that they could not have done otherwise. Eg Joni Eareckson-Tada. Severely disabled people would probably not have listened to her talking about God if she were able bodied. She's been where they are, and she still is. Several books, records and two organisations ministering to the disabled later, she's still talking about God and faith.

 

[Strong in Him]

I'm going to just come out and say this. People like Joni Erickson Tada, John MacArthur, and R.C. Sproul are wolves, attacking the church, not helping it.

Not at all.
I don't know about the last two, but Joni's inspirational.

They deny God's love and compassion, and demand that others reject God's care along with them. They all make, (in Sproul's case, made), great amounts of money denying the truth of the Bible.

Have you read Joni's story?
She was convinced God would heal her. She told doctors and nurses that God would help her to walk, give her back the se of her hands and not let anything bad happen to her.
She was not healed physically, but has been mightily used by God IN her disability.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Simple - read the verse in context:

2 Cor 12: 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.
​

A messenger of Satan - angelos - spiritual messenger. The word is used 170 times in the NT, not one time translated sickness.

If you want a complete study on it:

Paul's Thorn

Satans permission to attack Job manifested in sickness.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Satans permission to attack Job manifested in sickness.

Again - that doesn't change the verse in context -

a messenger of Satan is not sickness.

Look at the chapter before:

2 Cor 11:18 18 Seeing that many boast according to the flesh, I also will boast.

23 I am more: in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often.
24 From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one.
25 Three times I was beaten with rods;
once I was stoned;
three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 in journeys often,
in perils of waters,
in perils of robbers,
in perils of my own countrymen,
in perils of the Gentiles,
in perils in the city,
in perils in the wilderness,
in perils in the sea,
in perils among false brethren;
27 in weariness and toil,
in sleeplessness often,
in hunger and thirst,
in fastings often,
in cold and nakedness—

28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation?

30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity.

Paul is listing out his infirmity - which one is a sickness?

 

[jiminpa]

Not at all.
I don't know about the last two, but Joni's inspirational.



Have you read Joni's story?
She was convinced God would heal her. She told doctors and nurses that God would help her to walk, give her back the se of her hands and not let anything bad happen to her.
She was not healed physically, but has been mightily used by God IN her disability.

And now she participates in anti-Holy Spirit rallies, and tells hurting people that God did that to them.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Again - that doesn't change the verse in context -

a messenger of Satan is not sickness.

Look at the chapter before:

2 Cor 11:18 18 Seeing that many boast according to the flesh, I also will boast.

23 I am more: in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often.
24 From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one.
25 Three times I was beaten with rods;
once I was stoned;
three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 in journeys often,
in perils of waters,
in perils of robbers,
in perils of my own countrymen,
in perils of the Gentiles,
in perils in the city,
in perils in the wilderness,
in perils in the sea,
in perils among false brethren;
27 in weariness and toil,
in sleeplessness often,
in hunger and thirst,
in fastings often,
in cold and nakedness—

28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation?

30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity.

Paul is listing out his infirmity - which one is a sickness?

Infirmity in this sense and context has more than one meaning.

Definition - not physically or mentally strong, especially through age or illness.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Infirmity in this sense and context has more than one meaning.

I’m open - show me in scripture

Start contextually, because I just showed context, but I could be missing something.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Infirmity in this sense and context has more than one meaning.

Definition - not physically or mentally strong, especially through age or illness.

Very good - here is Paul's description of his infirmity:

Again - that doesn't change the verse in context -

a messenger of Satan is not sickness.

Look at the chapter before:

2 Cor 11:18 18 Seeing that many boast according to the flesh, I also will boast.

23 I am more: in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often.
24 From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one.
25 Three times I was beaten with rods;
once I was stoned;
three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 in journeys often,
in perils of waters,
in perils of robbers,
in perils of my own countrymen,
in perils of the Gentiles,
in perils in the city,
in perils in the wilderness,
in perils in the sea,
in perils among false brethren;
27 in weariness and toil,
in sleeplessness often,
in hunger and thirst,
in fastings often,
in cold and nakedness—

28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation?

30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity.

Paul is listing out his infirmity - which one is a sickness?

Notice vs 30

30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity.
​

He is talking about his infirmity -

Anything on that list a sickness?

Anything on that list that would result in not being physically strong?

 

[jiminpa]

I'm sorry, I can get too passionate sometimes.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

sickness of death - chapter and verse please.

It's a condition, assuming one is raised (or healed) from it...not a spiritual gift. Lazarus was healed, Jairus' daughter was healed...

 

[Carl Emerson]

Looking at Vines, Gr 'Astheneia' is most often meaning sickness and disease.

Luke 13:11 directly connects a physical condition to Satanic agency.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Anything on that list that would result in not being physically strong?

27 in weariness and toil,
in sleeplessness often,

 

[Strong in Him]

And now she participates in anti-Holy Spirit rallies, and tells hurting people that God did that to them.

Not from what I've read, she doesn't.
She may say to some that God has a reason for allowing sickness.
She may say that she believes God has done more through her while in a chair than while she was on her feet.
She almost certainly says that God was with her during her accident, recovery, operations and so on.
But I doubt she meets a newly disabled person and says "God did that to you. Rejoice and be glad; it's his will that you are in pain." No one would believe in a god like that; yet people have become Christians through her ministry.

 

[Always in His Presence]

27 in weariness and toil,
in sleeplessness often,

Which is a sickness?

 

[Always in His Presence]

Looking at Vines, Gr 'Astheneia' is most often meaning sickness and disease.

Luke 13:11 directly connects a physical condition to Satanic agency.

What does that have to do with 'angelos' - Paul's Thorn?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Which is a sickness?

Weariness and sleeplessness are common signs of sickness.

But lets face it - folks interpret depending on what they want to believe.

 

[Carl Emerson]

What does that have to do with 'angelos' - Paul's Thorn?

You seem to claim infirmity doesn't imply sickness.

For whatever reason you dont seem to appreciate the scriptural link between Satans activities and sickness.

 

[Always in His Presence]

You seem to claim infirmity doesn't imply sickness.

For whatever reason you dont seem to appreciate the scriptural link between Satans activities and sickness.

There is a distinct link between sickness and it's author - Satan. That is plainly shown in scripture.

What i am saying is that Paul's thorn was not a sickness - that my friend is supported by context as shown and, as you pointed out - the words are different between the spirit of infirmity (Astheneia) and messenger of Satan (angelos).

Again, there is not one person in the New Testament who came to God and asked for healing who was not healed.

Look at your own reference in Luke 13

10 Now He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath. 11 And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up. 12 But when Jesus saw her, He called her to Him and said to her, “Woman, you are loosed from your infirmity.” 13 And He laid His hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.

14 But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath; and he said to the crowd, “There are six days on which men ought to work; therefore come and be healed on them, and not on the Sabbath day.”

15 The Lord then answered him and said, “Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loose his ox or donkey from the stall, and lead it away to water it? 16 So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound—think of it—for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?
​

Four things:

1) spirit of infirmity - Asthenieia - not angelos (which is what Paul was speaking of).
2) Why did Jesus heal her - it was her right as a daughter of Abraham (Paul was a son of Abraham - same covenant, same rights)
3) The woman was healed, not told my grace is sufficient as Paul was.
4) The woman's infirmity was plainly stated - so was Paul's, but no sickness was mentioned in Paul's

Two totally different words, two totally different outcomes.

 

[mourningdove~]

Someone very close to me died of cancer. She believed to her last breath that God was going to heal her. That doesn't negate God's word. He wants to heal us, but the naysayers shout louder, and it plants doubt in our minds and too often our hearts.

Thank you for sharing what you have. It helps me to better understand your viewpoint as we have engaged in this discussion.

I am very sorry for your loss. Two very close family members of mine are both currently battling serious cancers, and so I have personally come to know the tenacious enemy that is the disease of cancer. Battling cancer is a tough battle, even for those of the greatest faith.

Believing about healing as you do, I can understand why you would be so angry and disappointed with everyone you believe does not exhibit the faith you believe is lacking. Fortunately for me, though, I do not believe as you do.