Are there Christians today who minimize the consequences of sin and ignore morality on some level?

[Hank77]

Are there Christians today who minimize the consequences of sin and ignore morality on some level?

You know, are there believers today who treat serious sins (like murder, hate, adultery, theft, etc.) as if it was like we spilled a glass of milk before God?

I would have to answer both of these questions with a "yes."

Why? Well,, when I hear certain believers speak about sin: It makes it sound like God is saying this to them when they sin:

GOD:

"Aw, that's okay, my child. You just spilled a little milk. I can clean that up. It is not that big of a deal."​

To me, that is what it sounds like whenever hear certain Christians say that a believer can abide in unrepentant sin like (lusting after a woman or lying) and still be saved (as long as they have a belief on Jesus).

They say a believer will be chastised. But is that really a form of punishment? Do not even unbelievers go thru the same challenges as unbelievers?

Is not a "Sin and still be saved" type of belief minimizing sin and ignoring morality on some level?

Is not God good?

Why would God allow His people to get away with doing evil?

Does the work of Christ's death, burial, resurrection, and ascension really undo a person's current rebellion against God?

Why would God allow evil and rebellious people into God's Kingdom?
Why doesn't God just save everyone then?

Anyways, please answer the main question of the thread and cast your vote in the poll.

Thank you for reading.
And may God's love shine upon you.

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Why is so hard for some people to understand that knowing that you are saved forever will not lead one into sin? If just seems so weird to me and I don't even believe OSAS.

If a child loves their parents and they know their parents love them, they know their parents aren't going to kill them if they do something wrong. Does that mean they just do anything they want to do because their parents won't kill them? You don't think that knowing they will be disciplined and/or they will cause their parents sorrow, isn't enough to keep them somewhat on the straight and narrow. By the time they are an adult they wouldn't think of willfully hurting their parents just because they shouldn't.

Love is a very, very powerful weapon against sin. Knowing that one is so loved that someone would send their own child to die for you, that's powerful love. Knowing that their child would obey them even to the point of death, that's powerful love. Knowing that that child as a man loved so much that He....

We love Him because He first loved us. 1 John 4:19

 

[EmSw]

Why is so hard for some people to understand that knowing that you are saved forever will not lead one into sin? If just seems so weird to me and I don't even believe OSAS.

If a child loves their parents and they know their parents love them, they know their parents aren't going to kill them if they do something wrong. Does that mean they just do anything they want to do because their parents won't kill them? You don't think that knowing they will be disciplined and/or they will cause their parents sorrow, isn't enough to keep them somewhat on the straight and narrow. By the time they are an adult they wouldn't think of willfully hurting their parents just because they shouldn't.

Love is a very, very powerful weapon against sin. Knowing that one is so loved that someone would send their own child to die for you, that's powerful love. Knowing that their child would obey them even to the point of death, that's powerful love. Knowing that that child as a man loved so much that He....

We love Him because He first loved us. 1 John 4:19

Perhaps you've never heard of children who have killed their parents, even when the parents loved their children.

 

[Hank77]

Perhaps you've never heard of children who have killed their parents, even when the parents loved their children.

As if that is normal behavior. Sheesh..
I didn't say ALL children or all Christians. Do you think all murderous children always feel loved by their parents?
Maybe if you try rereading the post I was responding to you will get it. But considering your response, I highly doubt it.

 

[FireDragon76]

I agree with your view 100%. Unfortunately I'm not always the best at conveying what I'm thinking. Let's use a example. Say a person knows with out a doubt sex outside of marriage is a sin. Yet they also claim to love, believe and follow Jesus Christ. But they have sex with people everyday. Is this person a Christian?

I would say they are a Christian if they say so. Are they saved? That's another issue altogether. Is their behavior an example to follow? No.

BTW, at the church I go to there are some people living with partners outside of marriage . It's common with the elderly living on a fixed income. And it's also common with disabled individuals. This isn't to justify the situation but some compassion is important in our analysis of what is and is not something that we should guilt or shame people for, trying to goad them into repentance. This is where the danger of being like a pharisee becomes quite real for all too many Christians. At the heart of the Pharisees lifestyle is pride. This is why their favorite words are Jesus "go and sin no more". But they overlook the fact that they are not Christ and have no right to say those words on behalf of him, outside the context he has given, which in that case are words of forgiveness.

But doesn't your faith produce fruits?

Yes, but they can't assure us that we are justified by God. Only God's grace does that. Which is one reason I favor a more Lutheran or Catholic approach to this issue. Grace is not so much God's attitude towards us, it's the gift of Christ himself, and for Luther that was found in the preached Word and the Sacraments, in the community that gathers around the Gospel and the Lord's Supper.

I do not think someone lives a certain way becomes saved and all stays the same. Christ begins to work in and through you.

Of course. I've lived both with God and without relying on God very much, and there are definite differences. I don't have to take my own experience on this, other people notice. But that difference does not come from focusing on my own efforts to try to reform myself but on God's grace.

The Holy Spirit always makes me feel convicted of I have sinned or am about to sin. This is how I know what I need to work in and remove from myself.

There's not just sins of commission but sins of omission as well. If you have ever walked passed a homeless person and not given them money, you are potentially committing a sin. You want to be careful going down this sin-accounting road.

 

[EmSw]

As if that is normal behavior. Sheesh..
I didn't say ALL children or all Christians. Do you think all murderous children always feel loved by their parents?
Maybe if you try rereading the post I was responding to you will get it. But considering your response, I highly doubt it.

If you aren't speaking of all children, I wish you would have stated it. Since not all children love their parents, can we assume from your story that all Christians do not love God? Can we assume that all Christians do not have normal behavior?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Well, if I am understanding you correctly, I do not see how justifying a little bit of sin vs. (versus) a lot of sin is any different from each other. Both make room for a person to think they can do evil and yet also serve God. For Adam just committed one sin and it caused a separation between God and all of mankind.


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Can a child disobey his mother many times daily, without his mother permanantly disowning him?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Can a child disobey his mother many times daily, without his mother permanantly disowning him?

Children grow up and if they continue to do evil things, then they can die for their crimes of sin. Dead children or sons cannot participate in family events because they are dead. No family reuninions or special dinners, etc. They are no longer a living son who can participate in family events because the consequences of sin destroyed their life.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Why is so hard for some people to understand that knowing that you are saved forever will not lead one into sin? If just seems so weird to me and I don't even believe OSAS.

If a child loves their parents and they know their parents love them, they know their parents aren't going to kill them if they do something wrong. Does that mean they just do anything they want to do because their parents won't kill them? You don't think that knowing they will be disciplined and/or they will cause their parents sorrow, isn't enough to keep them somewhat on the straight and narrow. By the time they are an adult they wouldn't think of willfully hurting their parents just because they shouldn't.

Love is a very, very powerful weapon against sin. Knowing that one is so loved that someone would send their own child to die for you, that's powerful love. Knowing that their child would obey them even to the point of death, that's powerful love. Knowing that that child as a man loved so much that He....

We love Him because He first loved us. 1 John 4:19

Our free will is not taken away once we have become born again of the Spirit; And God is not a respecter of persons in regards to His promises. If someone genuinely believes and accepts Him, that does not mean they cannot fall away due to loving their own sin again. A new good nature does not erase their own will to choose either good or evil. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments. So if you believe believers truly love Jesus, then we should see all Christians everywhere obeying Jesus and following Him perfectly. But that is not what we see. We see people with free will who can act contrary to their good nature. Just as Adam acted contrary to his good nature of his own free wil. That is why there are many warnings to us believers in the New Testament.


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[FireDragon76]

Children grow up and if they continue to do evil things, then they can die for their crimes of sin. Dead children or sons cannot participate in family events because they are dead. No family reuninions or special dinners, etc. They are no longer a living son who can participate in family events because the consequences of sin destroyed their life.

This analogy doesn't hold true for the Kingdom of God. Look at what Jesus says about little children and who gets into heaven, it's not the grown-ups. Those with real faith never grow up, they only become littler and littler as they mature.

I notice you focus a lot on the "crime" of sin. I think that's a problem because it focuses on the human condition in purely legal terms, and only thinks of God as a judge. Jesus wants us to think of God as a parent, not a judge.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There are no exceptions for dying in unrepentant sin that leads to death.

i would have to disagree and think there is no way you can know that as absolute truth, unless you have scripture.

Well, first, before I give you Scripture, I will appeal to you with basic logic.

Okay, if God made an exception for a person to enter His Kingdom for breaking one of His Commands that was very serious, then He would have to just make exceptions for everyone and just allow everyone into His Kingdom. For if there is no moral standard that you can rely upon then God cannot be trusted in regards to His goodness, and fair justice. For imagine if you will there was a criminal who just killed your family and destroyed half of the world. What if a judge let this person get away with his crimes and he was now out to kill you? All because the judge decided to make an exception. Does that sound fair? What if God just let this person get away with his crimes, too (And he has not changed)? But would God really do that? No. God is fair and just with everyone and He is not a respecter of persons. There are no exceptions to God's goodness. In other words, if a person lies and God knows that they will always be like that, why would God force them to not lie by re-creating their being when they arrive in His Kingdom if that is who they really are? See, God does not violate a person's free will. If they do evil, or good they will reap what they sow. For life is a test. It is a test to see if you love God or if you love yourself or your sin more than God.

Second, Scripture says God will render according to every man according to his deeds and that God is not a respecter of persons.

3 "And do you think, O man, that judge them who do such things, and do the same, that you shall escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart treasure up unto yourself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God."
(Romans 2:3-11).

I mean, why do you think we are told to, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." in Philippians 2:12 ?

In your view, we would not need to fear God because there would be exceptions to the rule that we could rely upon that could save us. We could erroneously think that God's good ways could be bent or that His justice was not always fair or trust worthy because our case to choose sin over God is different. I am sorry, to inform you. The Bible does not teach that. A person reaps what they sow.

Do you have scripture to back up God doesn't just let people die naturally and that he has his personal hand on every death?

1 Samuel 2:6
Job 1:21
Revelation 1:18

Remember, satan could not take the life of Job without his permission (We see this in Job 2:6).

If God is merciful and desires for a person to repent and God knows their heart that they will do so and live honorably for the Lord the rest of their life, then God will let them live so as to repent instead of taking their life without giving them a chance to repent.

I think you're just making some of this stuff up. Sounds like some of this are things that you have considered and somehow turned speculation into fact. But you may be able to back it up with scripture, and if so, please do.

For me to live is Christ and to die is gain (Philippians 1:21). When we are forgiven by God, we can then glorify God and Christ so as to live like Christ has lived. We gain in our death by seeing Jesus and in being able to be with Him in the after-life. As for believers who do evil: We see Ananais and Sapphria are both killed for their lying to the Holy Spirit and a great fear fell upon all the church who heard it (Acts 5:1-11). The emotion of fear is not usually expressed by a people who believe their friends are in God's Kingdom or that they are with the Lord in Paradise.

I think you are masking assumptions there

You mean, "making" assumptions and not "masking" assumptions.

Anyways, you are free to believe whatever you like. But ask God about His uncompromising goodness and search the Scriptures for yourself with His help over a long period of time. Don't be impatient. Seek it out with God for a really good amount of time. Talk to the Lord about it and He will lead you to have the understanding on it. But if you want to make excuses for man to get away with evil, and that God can bend some of His Laws to let evil people into Heaven, then you are free to believe that. Just please know that God is good and He would never allow for something like that. For if what you believe is true, surely you should have Scripture to back up your belief, as well.


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[Bible Highlighter]

This analogy doesn't hold true for the Kingdom of God. Look at what Jesus says about little children and who gets into heaven, it's not the grown-ups. Those with real faith never grow up, they only become littler and littler as they mature.

I notice you focus a lot on the "crime" of sin. I think that's a problem because it focuses on the human condition in purely legal terms, and only thinks of God as a judge. Jesus wants us to think of God as a parent, not a judge.

We cannot mold our thoughts of what we think of God because it is comfortable to our way of thinking. The Bible teaches that God is both a parent and a judge. For God will judge every human being according to their deeds. Read Romans 2:3-11.


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[Kaleb5000]

We cannot mold our thoughts of what we think of God because it is comfortable to our way of thinking. The Bible teaches that God is both a parent and a judge. For God will judge every human being according to their deeds. Read Romans 2:3-11.


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I just hope as you go through life you are not condemning. You are not passing judgement on unbelievers. With regards to you brothers and sisters I hope if you see something them sinning you approach them out of love.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why is so hard for some people to understand that knowing that you are saved forever will not lead one into sin?

Most people don't need to be "led" into sin....
society is so pernicious, like the days of Noah only worse today,
there's more than enough sin already (it is encouraged greatly, and widely accepted and practiced)...
as Jesus says it is necessary to "Judge with Righteous Judgment" (very very rare today, no one is teaching this it seems, as .... .... no one knows how ? ) only Yhwh has saved for Himself a remnant....

 

[Hank77]

If you aren't speaking of all children, I wish you would have stated it. Since not all children love their parents, can we assume from your story that all Christians do not love God? Can we assume that all Christians do not have normal behavior?

The analogy that I was using is how knowing one is love can produce love in return. That if one does not know they are loved they may not care to return love. As in we love God because He first loved us, not because we loved Him first.

So when someone makes statements about people that believe they are saved and that God will never desert them because of His most amazing love (mercy and grace), that will somehow give them a license to sin is not true. The only way someone could believe that God's love for them gives them a license to sin, is if they want to believe it. In their heart of hearts they know better. Not only are we born with a conscience but once we know God we have the helper, the Holy Spirit who guides us into His truth. John 16:7-14

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This analogy doesn't hold true for the Kingdom of God. Look at what Jesus says about little children and who gets into heaven, it's not the grown-ups. Those with real faith never grow up, they only become littler and littler as they mature.

I notice you focus a lot on the "crime" of sin. I think that's a problem because it focuses on the human condition in purely legal terms, and only thinks of God as a judge. Jesus wants us to think of God as a parent, not a judge.

I also think you are taking the analogy of how we are to have the heart of a child too far, as well. It is not in the sense of us being immature. For Paul rebukes the Corinthian church for their carnal thinking and their inability to receive the meat of the Word. Paul said he could only feed them with the milk of the Word as if they are babes. So obviously being immature in this sense is not a good thing. For obviously God wants us to be mature in His Word and in His righteousness.


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[Hank77]

Our free will is not taken away once we have become born again of the Spirit; And God is not a respecter of persons in regards to His promises. If someone genuinely believes and accepts Him, that does not mean they cannot fall away due to loving their own sin again. A new good nature does not erase their own will to choose either good or evil. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments. So if you believe believers truly love Jesus, then we should see all Christians everywhere obeying Jesus and following Him perfectly. But that is not what we see. We see people with free will who can act contrary to their good nature. Just as Adam acted contrary to his good nature of his own free wil. That is why there are many warnings to us believers in the New Testament.


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And none of this has anything to do with what I was talking about.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So when someone makes statements about people that believe they are saved and that God will never desert them because of His most amazing love (mercy and grace), that will somehow give them a license to sin is not true.

It is true in experience though, for multitudes of multitudes of people.
Consider that "a license to sin" is the same as giving people a reason not to repent, allowing them to continue sinning willy nilly without warning them to repent to escape the judgment to come,
or perhaps more properly without delivering in line with God's Word whatever Word or Message from God He Gives to speak to them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I just hope as you go through life you are not condemning. You are not passing judgement on unbelievers. With regards to you brothers and sisters I hope if you see something them sinning you approach them out of love.

First, the Scriptures say we can correct others according to His Word (See 2 Timothy 3:16, Ephesians 5:11).

Second, love is the gospel and the hope of being saved thru Jesus Christ. If I only preached condemnation and no hope or salvation or no relationship with Jesus Christ then I could see where you are coming from. I also believe love is the foundation of our faith, as well. Without speaking in kindness and leading people with one's love, one is just a tinkling cymbal. One has to genuinely care about the lost and love them properly. They do not do this on their own power of course but by the transforming power of Jesus Christ. We are talking about a specific topic of how believers today are justifying a sin and still be saved doctrine (Which goes against God's morality) with other believers. The issue here is a matter of believers (Who should already be are of the love of God) in them understanding the concept of morality or God's goodness. Some times folks need a splash of cold water to wake them up out of what they think is God's love when it is not. Meaning, they extend the grace and love of God to cover current rebellion done against Him (or wrong thinking about sin). This does not mean I do not care for those who I believe are justifying sin with the thinking they are saved (even despite some of these people (over the years) have called me bad names or accused me falsely and or when they have done bad things towards me). I continue to pray for them and at any given opportunity to do good to them (with love). Not love in words, but by my actions (genuinely). Forgiving and loving in truth according to God's Word.


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[Bible Highlighter]

And none of this has anything to do with what I was talking about.

Then why don't you explain how it has nothing to do with what you are talking about. Please tell us how the free will of the believer does not apply to what you are saying.


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[Hank77]

Can a child disobey his mother many times daily, without his mother permanantly disowning him?

Absolutely.
If humans are capable of loving their children so very much, how much more powerful is God's love for His kids?