Are there Christians today who minimize the consequences of sin and ignore morality on some level?

[Hank77]

Then why don't you explain how it has nothing to do with what you are talking about. Please tell us how the free will of the believer does not apply to what you are saying.


...

I already have explained how believing one is saved and how God will never desert them, does not cause them to believe that this love of God gives them a license to sin.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I already have explained how believing one is saved and how God will never desert them, does not cause them to believe that this love of God gives them a license to sin.

Perhaps true.
But when they are sinning willy nilly (without restraint),
and no one is delivering Yhwh's message of repentance to be saved from sin,
how
is that any different from "having a license to sin" ?

 

[Hank77]

Perhaps true.
But when they are sinning willy nilly (without restraint),
and no one is delivering Yhwh's message of repentance to be saved from sin,
how
is that any different from "having a license to sin" ?

Again, that is not what I was addressing. Everyone one of my posts relate to what a person believes about God's love (mercy and grace) towards them, which is truly a perfect love, will not cause them to believe they have a license to sin.

The causes of sin are many, but this isn't one of them.

If one believes that God only loves them when they are good that makes God out to be like Santa Claus, "you'd better watch out, you'd better not cry."
One is not a good parent if they only love their kid when they are good. One is not a good parent if they don't correct their kid when they do something that will harm themselves or others, including the kingdom of God. That is not love.

I have found that the people who go around navel gazing instead of keeping their eyes firming fixed on Jesus, the picture of God's love for us, have far more trouble with sin than those who don't spend their lives worrying about sinning. Living firmly fixed in knowing God loves them keeps them from sinning. God's love is powerful and changes who we used to be.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Again, that is not what I was addressing. Everyone one of my posts relate to what a person believes about God's love (mercy and grace) towards them, which is truly a perfect love, will not cause them to believe they have a license to sin.

I don't know WHY they* sin willy nilly, (without restraint),
but they* do. (there are rare exceptions observed and admitted).
IF it is because they* believe God loves them, then that's it.
IF it is because of some other reason, then that's it.
Maybe it's because they* are blind ? I don't know.
Whatever the reason,
they* sin willy nilly. (by most observations, of most of their posts or in life what can be seen in their lives.

*"they": perhaps we are referring to different groups of "they" ? No worries.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Second, Scripture says God will render according to every man according to his deeds and that God is not a respecter of persons.

Yes, according to his deeds, both good and bad. As I said, he's been a good man all his life and one slip then he dies before repentance, and all those good deeds are out the window? Nope, I just don't think you are looking closely enough at the scripture. Just as I mention the extenuating circumstances in our court system, God may be able to see each and every extenuating circumstance we cannot and make calculations with them we could never dream of. God is fair, meaning he will take everything into consideration.

Well, first, before I give you Scripture, I will appeal to you with basic logic.

Okay, if God made an exception for a person to enter His Kingdom for breaking one of His Commands that was very serious, then He would have to just make exceptions for everyone and just allow everyone into His Kingdom. For if there is no moral standard that you can rely upon then God cannot be trusted in regards to His goodness, and fair justice. For imagine if you will there was a criminal who just killed your family and destroyed half of the world. What if a judge let this person get away with his crimes and he was now out to kill you? All because the judge decided to make an exception. Does that sound fair? What if God just let this person get away with his crimes, too (And he has not changed)? But would God really do that? No. God is fair and just with everyone and He is not a respecter of persons. There are no exceptions to God's goodness. In other words, if a person lies and God knows that they will always be like that, why would God force them to not lie by re-creating their being when they arrive in His Kingdom if that is who they really are? See, God does not violate a person's free will. If they do evil, or good they will reap what they sow. For life is a test. It is a test to see if you love God or if you love yourself or your sin more than God.

If he does it for one, he has to do it for another has nothing to do with it, I expect he will if it the circumstances are the same. that's just not an argument.

You aren't paying attention to what I'm saying...a criminal that kills your family and half the world has to be hardened and at it for quit some time. My scenario was in terms of a generally good man/woman.

Being a respecter of persons or not, has nothing to do with this either, it's all about true fair play.

If they do evil, or good they will reap what they sow.

Bet you are thinking one doesn't cancel out the other, at least that's what all you say here indicates, so I'll leave that at this, and this is just one example of what I'm trying to get across:

1 Peter 1:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

Keep your eye on the subject and think in terms of enough good can outweigh the bad. The bad in this case only being not repenting and/or asking forgiveness in time in a case of extenuating circumstance. That being, due to death, that last possible sin that puts people in this position.

Second, Scripture says God will render according to every man according to his deeds and that God is not a respecter of persons.

3 "And do you think, O man, that judge them who do such things, and do the same, that you shall escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart treasure up unto yourself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God."
(Romans 2:3-11).

I mean, why do you think we are told to, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." in Philippians 2:12 ?

In your view, we would not need to fear God because there would be exceptions to the rule that we could rely upon that could save us. We could erroneously think that God's good ways could be bent or that His justice was not always fair or trust worthy because our case to choose sin over God is different. I am sorry, to inform you. The Bible does not teach that. A person reaps what they sow.

All that tells me you are just throwing things at the argument and aren't going to hear what I'm saying, so I'll just pull this one from it:

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Yes, according to his deeds. Get out of your box for just a moment and think about the good deeds, not just the bad: We will be judged on the good as well...is that sinking in?

The man:

"But God, it's true, I tried to be a good man all my life or ever since I was saved and always repented of my sin when I failed, but I failed to repent of this one thing. I intended to when I got home so I could get on my knees and talk to you about it in private but I died before I got there. So I guess I deserve Hell"

So, you wanted to appeal to my basic logic earlier, and don't get me wrong, I thrive on the logical, but it's also logical to use common sense, and if common sense tells you, you think God will really send this man to Hell, you are entirely too caught up in "my view of things has to be right, I am the teacher of truth no matter how hard it is to take" ...while not considering is it really true or not.

1 Samuel 2:6
Job 1:21
Revelation 1:18

Remember, satan could not take the life of Job without his permission (We see this in Job 2:6).

None of those things even come close to backing your argument that God has his hand on when each and every individual dies, but not really all that important to the subject we are discussing.

For me to live is Christ and to die is gain (Philippians 1:21). When we are forgiven by God, we can then glorify God and Christ so as to live like Christ has lived. We gain in our death by seeing Jesus and in being able to be with Him in the after-life. As for believers who do evil: We see Ananais and Sapphria are both killed for their lying to the Holy Spirit and a great fear fell upon all the church who heard it (Acts 5:1-11). The emotion of fear is not usually expressed by a people who believe their friends are in God's Kingdom or that they are with the Lord in Paradise.

How does any of that back your point?

As for believers who do evil

This isn't about just that, there is more too what we are talking about. Again, your just throwing stuff at the argument, irrelevant stuff.

You mean, "making" assumptions and not "masking" assumptions.

Anyways, you are free to believe whatever you like. But ask God about His uncompromising goodness and search the Scriptures for yourself with His help over a long period of time. Don't be impatient. Seek it out with God for a really good amount of time. Talk to the Lord about it and He will lead you to have the understanding on it. But if you want to make excuses for man to get away with evil, and that God can bend some of His Laws to let evil people into Heaven, then you are free to believe that. Just please know that God is good and He would never allow for something like that. For if what you believe is true, surely you should have Scripture to back up your belief, as well.

Why would I need to make excuses for that? No one is "getting away" with anything with my point of view.

So you are saying you have the knowledge and I should study the scripture till I reach YOUR level of true understanding? Now that's just arrogant.

As I said from the onset, you have a wrong understanding of things as I see it. Your post seems to put you in the category of a few I've seen around here...people that feel their way is true and others don't get it only because they aren't as knowledgeable/into scripture or as close to the God as you are. Or the, haughty "I'm brave enough to teach it no matter how bad it sounds" while that haughtiness keeps you from giving enough thought to whether what you are teaching is truth or not. There is no arguing with someone when they have that higher view of themselves. All I can tell you is come down off your throne, and rethink, you might be surprises at what those of us the live down here in the real world have to offer.

 

[bcbsr]

When I speak of a little bit of sin that can cause one to forfeit their salvation, I am talking about sins that excusively lead unto the Second Death (Like lying, murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, and drunkenness, etc.). Hidden or secret faults are not the type of transgressions that Jesus and his followers ascribe to a person being a sinner. These types of transgressions are minor and they do not lead to the Second Death. There are also transgressions that do not lead unto death that we can consciously commit or be aware of, too. For example: Not being baptized is not a transgression that leads unto the Second Death (1 Peter 3:21).


...

Jason,

So how frequently do you lose your salvation? Or is it that since allegedly becoming a Christian you think you never committed a "serious" sin as you call it? Logically the only sins you would confess are the serious sins you committed intentionally, seeing as as first of all you claim that one is unaware of "secret sins" and therefore doesn't confess and repent of those, and you claim that Christians don't commit unintentional serious sins. So the only sins left are the serious sins one commits intentionally. So are you claiming not to have committed any serious sins intentionally, and therefore have never since your alleged conversion confessed and repented of sins?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I already have explained how believing one is saved and how God will never desert them, does not cause them to believe that this love of God gives them a license to sin.

Then are you saying God over rides a person's free will to be that way? Or that God only chooses to regenerate only those he knows will behave correct all their life?

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason,

So how frequently do you lose your salvation? Or is it that since allegedly becoming a Christian you think you never committed a "serious" sin as you call it? Logically the only sins you would confess are the serious sins you committed intentionally, seeing as as first of all you claim that one is unaware of "secret sins" and therefore doesn't confess and repent of those, and you claim that Christians don't commit unintentional serious sins. So the only sins left are the serious sins one commits intentionally. So are you claiming not to have committed any serious sins intentionally, and therefore have never since your alleged conversion confessed and repented of sins?

Again, this is not Facebook where we talk about our personal lives. This is a Bible discussion forum. If you want to know the truth on a particular subject, ask your questions in light of what you think the Bible says (using Scripture and not opinion). Besides, the standard of truth is not your life or my life. The standard of truth is God's Word. So let's please stick with Scripture and debate the topic at hand using verses from the Bible.

Anyways, when God forgives you of sin that you confess after being a believer it is forever forgiven. For if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). Also, Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil in a believer's life (1 John 3:8). Also, if you walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses you of all sin (1 John 1:7).

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, according to his deeds, both good and bad. As I said, he's been a good man all his life and one slip then he dies before repentance, and all those good deeds are out the window? Nope, I just don't think you are looking closely enough at the scripture. Just as I mention the extenuating circumstances in our court system, God may be able to see each and every extenuating circumstance we cannot and make calculations with them we could never dream of. God is fair, meaning he will take everything into consideration.



If he does it for one, he has to do it for another has nothing to do with it, I expect he will if it the circumstances are the same. that's just not an argument.

You aren't paying attention to what I'm saying...a criminal that kills your family and half the world has to be hardened and at it for quit some time. My scenario was in terms of a generally good man/woman.

Being a respecter of persons or not, has nothing to do with this either, it's all about true fair play.

If they do evil, or good they will reap what they sow.

Bet you are thinking one doesn't cancel out the other, at least that's what all you say here indicates, so I'll leave that at this, and this is just one example of what I'm trying to get across:

1 Peter 1:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

Keep your eye on the subject and think in terms of enough good can outweigh the bad. The bad in this case only being not repenting and/or asking forgiveness in time in a case of extenuating circumstance. That being, due to death, that last possible sin that puts people in this position.





All that tells me you are just throwing things at the argument and aren't going to hear what I'm saying, so I'll just pull this one from it:

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Yes, according to his deeds. Get out of your box for just a moment and think about the good deeds, not just the bad: We will be judged on the good as well...is that sinking in?

The man:

"But God, it's true, I tried to be a good man all my life or ever since I was saved and always repented of my sin when I failed, but I failed to repent of this one thing. I intended to when I got home so I could get on my knees and talk to you about it in private but I died before I got there. So I guess I deserve Hell"

So, you wanted to appeal to my basic logic earlier, and don't get me wrong, I thrive on the logical, but it's also logical to use common sense, and if common sense tells you, you think God will really send this man to Hell, you are entirely too caught up in "my view of things has to be right, I am the teacher of truth no matter how hard it is to take" ...while not considering is it really true or not.




None of those things even come close to backing your argument that God has his hand on when each and every individual dies, but not really all that important to the subject we are discussing.



How does any of that back your point?

As for believers who do evil

This isn't about just that, there is more too what we are talking about. Again, your just throwing stuff at the argument, irrelevant stuff.



Why would I need to make excuses for that? No one is "getting away" with anything with my point of view.

So you are saying you have the knowledge and I should study the scripture till I reach YOUR level of true understanding? Now that's just arrogant.

As I said from the onset, you have a wrong understanding of things as I see it. Your post seems to put you in the category of a few I've seen around here...people that feel their way is true and others don't get it only because they aren't as knowledgeable/into scripture or as close to the God as you are. Or the, haughty "I'm brave enough to teach it no matter how bad it sounds" while that haughtiness keeps you from giving enough thought to whether what you are teaching is truth or not. There is no arguing with someone when they have that higher view of themselves. All I can tell you is come down off your throne, and rethink, you might be surprises at what those of us the live down here in the real world have to offer.

I am not sure you understand what it means to not compromise when it comes to morality. God is holy and good and just and fair 100% of the time. If God were to allow just one person into Heaven for doing evil, then God will have to completely ignore all our sins and let everyone into Heaven who is evil and wicked. For it only took one sin for Adam to cause a separation between God and mankind.

Anyways, I am not sure it is worth debating this with you unless you are truly open to seeing my viewpoint with Scripture. So far, I am not getting that impression. You are only seeking to justify immorality (or one sin) because you think somebody was pushed into doing something beyond their control. But could they have not resisted in doing evil? Sure they could. That is what faith is all about. Faith leads us to be persecuted in doing the right thing. Think about it. Nobody is rewarded for doing evil. Why you think otherwise is beyond me.


....

 

[Hank77]

Then are you saying God over rides a person's free will to be that way? Or that God only chooses to regenerate only those he knows will behave correct all their life?

...

Again I am not addressing either of these doctrinal views, whether to be free will or election. Sheesh....

 

[Kenny'sID]

If God were to allow just one person into Heaven for doing evil, then God will have to completely ignore all our sins and let everyone into Heaven who is evil and wicked.

I never once even suggested God let anyone into heaven for doing evil, and if you will look closely you can prove that out. You may not be interested in my opinion on this but, I assure you it is only to help. Seems when you cannot back up what you say, you tend to completely jump subject and try to throw something irrelevant into the argument. OMO, best not to say things that you cannot back up, and in all honesty I think you are sincere enough that you really don't want to be passing things around as fact if there is even a chance they may not be.

At any rate, I can see this isn't going to get us anywhere so, I only ask that you think about what I said, as well as how your arguments are met by others here, and try to discern something from it all that might help you. And I don't mean help with this particular subject, but in general.

Thanks for taking the time to listen anyway, and hopefully we can both get something out of this.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I never once even suggested God let anyone into heaven for doing evil, and if you will look closely you can prove that out. You may not be interested in my opinion on this but, I assure you it is only to help. Seems when you cannot back up what you say, you tend to completely jump subject and try to throw something irrelevant into the argument. OMO, best not to say things that you cannot back up, and in all honesty I think you are sincere enough that you really don't want to be passing things around as fact if there is even a chance they may not be.

At any rate, I can see this isn't going to get us anywhere so, I only ask that you think about what I said, as well as how your arguments are met by others here, and try to discern something from it all that might help you. And I don't mean help with this particular subject, but in general.

Thanks for taking the time to listen anyway, and hopefully we can both get something out of this.

So you are not of the position that there is an excusable circumstance for a person to commit a horrible sin like murder, adultery, theft, lying, and drunkeness, etc.?

If that is not the case, then please explain what you are talking about then.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again I am not addressing either of these doctrinal views, whether to be free will or election. Sheesh....

But it is at the heart of your seeking an answer from me, though (and or in gaining and understanding with Scripture). If you do not want the answer, or you are refusing to address something that involves the answer, I cannot help you.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

 

[Hank77]

But it is at the heart of your seeking an answer from me, though (and or in gaining and understanding with Scripture). If you do not want the answer, or you are refusing to address something that involves the answer, I cannot help you.


...

It was a rhetorical question in relationship to a point in the OP. It really doesn't have a definitive answer.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It was a rhetorical question in relationship to a point in the OP. It really doesn't have a definitive answer.

You mean you don't know? Or do you think it is not possible for Christians to do such a thing?


...

 

[Hank77]

You mean you don't know? Or do you think it is not possible for Christians to do such a thing?...

I am not going to get into it with you about free will or election. I'm just not.

Is not a "Sin and still be saved" type of belief minimizing sin and ignoring morality on some level?

I said my piece about a particular point in the OP. If you don't understand what I was saying that is fine. It's no big deal.
If you would like to discuss what I was talking about in my posts then I will do that.

 

[Kenny'sID]

So you are not of the position that there is an excusable circumstance for a person to commit a horrible sin like murder, adultery, theft, lying, and drunkeness, etc.?

If that is not the case, then please explain what you are talking about then.

Again, that is not the subject, but all those sins are forgivable.

If you are asking if those who do those things would maker it to heaven if they did it, and didn't repent in time or before they died, it would all depend on God and the circumstance surrounding it. I gave a scenario where I thought he may not condemn a man. Ongoing drunkenness for instance did not fit into what I was claiming, so has nothing to do with the subject.

Once again, I'm talking about a man/woman who was generally very good all their life, and even that is just a for instance..there are all types of situations where your view of things may not be the way it is. If those people you mention were doing that as a lifestyle and die in those sins, they would likely be up the creek, but if they did it once and the rest of their life was good and circumstance had it where they didn't get to repent before they died but God knew full well they would have, that is an example of where I feel he might just let them into the Kingdom.

God would be fair, and he is better at that than us.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

God is fair ? That is not written anywhere in His Word the way it is meant here.
God says that no one is righteous on earth, not one.
God says that He sought for ONE PERSON doing what's right, and found NONE.

Fair? (again) What is fair ? >
No worries for those who ... well, let's see.....

The penalty for ONE SIN ? >>> DEATH. (eternal separation from God)

So, no worries for those who don't have one or more sins in their lives.

That leaves EVERYONE out. No one can enter heaven. ... ...

Is that fair ?

hint: God knew that would happen - that EVERYONE would deserve eternal death.....

and God was not caught by surprise. No. He knew everything before even creating anything.

He chose for Himself a remnant , to forgive them for their sins, so they could be restored to Him, for His Own Purpose.

The penalty for sin remained death. That did not change.

WHO DIED (for the remnant?). !!!!!! That is what changed.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Peace be with you.

Talking about a case whereby a person has lived a Good, Virtuous, Righteous and Holy life by obeying the Word of God and doing God's Will for a Long time. It is Impossible for this person to fall into sin by temptation or trial at the end of a holy life filled and sanctified with the Holy Graces of God. The person will not fall short at the end.

The only exception in this case is if the person only obeyed part of the Word of God and partly did God's Will for a long time. In another words the person was Not absolute and Not resolute in obeying the Word of God and doing God's Will in the person's life. In such a case, there is a High probability (99.9%) this person will Not be saved at the expiration of the person's mortal and earthly life.

God bless you.