Are there Christians today who minimize the consequences of sin and ignore morality on some level?

[Kaleb5000]

The original question is an obvious yes. Respectfully I ask why you felt like you needed to ask it?


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[Bible Highlighter]

The original question is an obvious yes. Respectfully I ask why you felt like you needed to ask it?


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See my last recent reply in post #20.

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[Kaleb5000]

"Are there Christians today who minimize the consequences of sin and ignore morality on some level?"

Of course and there always will be.

"You know, are there believers today who treat serious sins (like murder, hate, adultery, theft, etc.) as if it was like we spilled a glass of milk before God?"

Yes and always will be. However I would question if one was a Christian and thought the things you listed were ok if they were really Christians.

I would have to answer both of these questions with a "yes."

"Why? Well,, when I hear certain believers speak about sin: It makes it sound like God is saying this to them when

Is not a "Sin and still be saved" type of belief minimizing sin and ignoring morality on some level?

It depends on people's view of sin and still be saved. I would say someone who goes out an knowingly sins everyday on purpose and never repents is not saved.

Someone who walks out the door everyday and lives for God but slips up time to time and repents is still saved.

"Is not God good?"

Of course he is

“Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭136:1‬ ‭ESV‬‬


"Why would God allow His people to get away with doing evil?"

Here is why

“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭ESV‬

Does the work of Christ's death, burial, resurrection, and ascension really undo a person's current rebellion against God?

Jesus covers all sin. Past, present, and future.

"Why would God allow evil and rebellious people into God's Kingdom?"

He doesn't. That's why he sent Jesus. It's not what we do that makes us holy it is Christ who makes us holy.


"Why doesn't God just save everyone then?"

Because it is not his will to save everyone. Why would he save people who refuse to accept the gift of Jesus? It also goes back to God being holy and because he is holy and we are not we can not dwell with him unless Jesus makes us clean and holy.

If everyone accepted Christ as their savior then they would be saved.










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[jimmyjimmy]

Because it is an error on the behalf of many professing Christians today that they need to be corrected on.
But Jesus said narrow is the road that leads unto life and few be there that find it.

Side Note:

Also, by your negative response so far, you are making me believe you are against morality or God's goodness. I hope this is not true. If you are not against morality or God's goodness, then explain your belief in light of morality (or God's goodness) using Scripture.


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Christianity is about what you are "for", more than it is what you are "against". You never speak "for" anything Christian. Have you proclaimed the gospel to all of these filthy sinners?

 

[Kaleb5000]

One of our church services they played a video of all the things we Christians are against. It was hilarious and the list was long. At the end of the video the speaker asked what are we for? The church was silent. He got his point across.

This is exactly why Christians are not well received. Everyone knows what we are against but little know what we are for.


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[Bible Highlighter]

"Are there Christians today who minimize the consequences of sin and ignore morality on some level?"

Of course and there always will be.

Technically, all sin and evil will be eradicated or destroyed. So this is not true. For why would God keep evil and sin hanging around? That wouldn't make any sense. God has always destroyed His enemies and gained the victory.

"You know, are there believers today who treat serious sins (like murder, hate, adultery, theft, etc.) as if it was like we spilled a glass of milk before God?"

Yes and always will be. However I would question if one was a Christian and thought the things you listed were ok if they were really Christians.

Yes, and the majority of them coincidentally believe in the phrase Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved. Yet, they differ from you in the fact that you do not appear to make excuses for sin like they do. My concern is why believe in a doctrine that has the same name (and yet is totally different)?

I would have to answer both of these questions with a "yes."

"Why? Well,, when I hear certain believers speak about sin: It makes it sound like God is saying this to them when

Is not a "Sin and still be saved" type of belief minimizing sin and ignoring morality on some level?

It depends on people's view of sin and still be saved. I would say someone who goes out an knowingly sins everyday on purpose and never repents is not saved.

I agree.

Someone who walks out the door everyday and lives for God but slips up time to time and repents is still saved.

I agree.

"Is not God good?"

Of course he is

“Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭136:1‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Well, I asked the question not because I did not know that God was good. I asked the question so as to get certain believers here who think they can abide in unrepentant sins like lying or lusting after a woman with the thinking they are saved.

"Why would God allow His people to get away with doing evil?"

Here is why

“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭ESV‬

Again, I did not ask this question because I did not know the answer. I have given a similar answer many times before in answering for the existence of evil with Scripture. I asked the question because there are believers who think they can do evil or sin and not repent of such a sin and still be in God's good graces.

Does the work of Christ's death, burial, resurrection, and ascension really undo a person's current rebellion against God?

Jesus covers all sin. Past, present, and future.

This is one point where I disagree with you strongly. This is very serious for you to say this. For if you are not clear in how you say this to people, then you can give people the wrong impression that they have a license to sin if you do not say that they must live holy lives in order for their OSAS or present and future sins to be forgiven. For example: Let's say you told a crowd that was being filmed live by another person and you were telling people that their present and future sins are forgiven them and then Billy who has been looking for one last sermon to convince him that all sins are paid for as a justification in him into thinking he can continue to abide in unrepentant sin and still be saved hears your message right before the electricity is cut off. By your own preaching (if not explained in full detail), he could be misled into a wrong doctrine or belief and justify living in a lifestyle of sin.

Also, the Bible never actually says present or future sin is forgiven a believer. If that was the case, then how could Jesus say to others that they could be cast into hell fire for looking upon a woman in lust?


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[Bible Highlighter]

One of our church services they played a video of all the things we Christians are against. It was hilarious and the list was long. At the end of the video the speaker asked what are we for? The church was silent. He got his point across.

This is exactly why Christians are not well received. Everyone knows what we are against but little know what we are for.


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Christianity is about what you are "for", more than it is what you are "against". You never speak "for" anything Christian. Have you proclaimed the gospel to all of these filthy sinners?

Everyone here in the Christian section knows that you have to believe in Jesus to be saved. I also do not neglect to say that you also need to have a belief in Jesus or the gospel. But just because I focus my efforts on the aspect of Sanctification (Which is also a part of salvation) does not undermine it's importance. Unless of course you do not think Sanctification holds any value for the believer in being saved. Then I can see why folks here are attacking it. Most people's argument here is that we are sinners and not saints in conduct. They get me to focus on how I am a sinner and they do not encourage me to do the righteousness of God. Yet, the Bible doesn't speak in this way.


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[Kaleb5000]

I saved a draft and can't find it. Do you know where it goes?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Everyone here in the Christian section knows that you have to believe in Jesus to be saved. I also do not neglect to say that you also need to have a belief in Jesus or the gospel. But just because I focus my efforts on the aspect of Sanctification (Which is also a part of salvation) does not undermine it's importance. Unless of course you do not think Sanctification holds any value for the believer in being saved. Then I can see why folks here are attacking it. Most people's argument here is that we are sinners and not saints in conduct. They get me to focus on how I am a sinner and they do not encourage me to do the righteousness of God. Yet, the Bible doesn't speak in this way.


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Believing in Christ for salvation is only the entry point of a redeemed life. You have reduced everything to sin and salvation. The Christian life is infinitely more than that, and Christ's redemption encompasses more than personal salvation.

"For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." (Galatians 5:1)

 

[alexandriaisburning]

No. Morals is the same thing as righteousness; And righteousness comes from the Bible. Prove your case with Scripture if you believe otherwise.

I'll guess we'll just have to disagree, then. To me, saying that "morality" and "righteousness" are equivalent is a very naive and uninformed opinion; but you are, nonetheless, entitled to it.

Please take note that while man may have morals of his own that may differ from God's morals (or righteousness or goodness), they are not the same thing as God's true morals or righteousness (Which are always right and good) that come from the Bible.

Morals and righteousness come from the Bible? Really?

 

[Kaleb5000]

"unrepentant sins like lying or lusting after a woman with the thinking they are saved."

You I think even if you repent of these sins you will not be saved?

Have you not lied since you were saved?


"because there are believers who think they can do evil or sin and not repent of such a sin and still be in God's good graces."

You can be evil and sin and still be saved. You and I are evil. It is only Christ who makes us holy.

What if you committed sin and was killed before you have time to repent? Would you still not be saved?

What if you stole candy from a store at 5 years old and forgot all about it and never repented? Would you got to hell?







"This is one point where I disagree with you strongly. "

I do not think its that we disagree. It's just I did not go into further detail. Jesus does cover all sin. But for one to receive the gift of forgiveness accept Christ first and then we must repent (turn from that sin).

" Also, the Bible never actually says present or future sin is forgiven a believer. If that was the case, then how could Jesus say to others that they could be cast into hell fire for looking upon a woman in lust?"

The following verse explains what I believe about Jesus covering all sin perfectly

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:7‬ ‭ESV‬

It does not say from past, present, or future sin it says all which would cover just that all. Every single one. But a key part of that is this is for believers who walk in the light.







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[Kenny'sID]

Jason, your concerns are 100% viable.

To me, that is what it sounds like whenever hear certain Christians say that a believer can abide in unrepentant sin like (lusting after a woman or lying) and still be saved (as long as they have a belief on Jesus).

That's the basis of what is probably the greatest deception of our time, and one that will end in those who want to have it both ways going straight to Hell. These people do away with the narrow road to heaven, choose to make it wide, then teach it to others.

It's being pushed on this very thread, and those who teach it... well, do a search on "millstone" in the Bible. I wouldn't want to be them.

 

[Kaleb5000]

Jason, your concerns are 100% viable.



That's the basis of what is probably the greatest deception of our time, and one that will end in those who want to have it both ways going straight to Hell. These people do away with the narrow road to heaven, choose to make it wide, then teach it to others.

It's being pushed on this very thread, and those who teach it... well, do a search on "millstone" in the Bible. I wouldn't want to be them.

Are you saying if you told a lie tomorrow and repented it would not be forgiven because as Jason puts it is a unrepentant sin?

I'm all about picking the narrow gate. But just say you mess up. Are you saying you are damned forever if you lie or lust?


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[Kaleb5000]

Are you saying if you told a lie tomorrow and repented it would not be forgiven because as Jason puts it is a unrepentant sin?

I'm all about picking the narrow gate. But just say you mess up. Are you saying you are damned forever if you lie or lust?


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I think I have misunderstood the phrase unrepentant. You are not saying that you can't repent of these sins you are saying a person can not continually live in the same sin and never repent. Correct?


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[Kenny'sID]

Are you saying if you told a lie tomorrow and repented it would not be forgiven because as Jason puts it is a unrepentant sin?

Of course not.

Unrepentant sin? I guess that would be unrepentable or unforgivable? Is that what we are saying? If Jason says any sin that is not the unforgivable sin is unrepentable or unforgivable, he is wrong. and I'd have to demand scripture to prove it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Of course not.

Unrepentant sin? I guess that would be unrepentable or unforgivable? Is that what we are saying? If Jason says any sin that is not the unforgivable sin is unrepentable or unforgivable, he is wrong. and I'd have to demand scripture to prove it.

Well, nowhere did I say one cannot repent of their sins (i.e. to confess and forsake sin) and be forgiven. I was saying if one died in the sin of murder, or the sin of lying, or the sin of adultery, etc. without repenting of it (before they die), they will not be forgiven or saved (Revelation 21:8) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Luke 13:3) (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 2:3-6) (Proverbs 28:13) (Matthew 12:41 cf. Jonah 3:6-10). Ananias and Sapphira died immediately for their lying to the Holy Spirit, and a great fear fell upon the church and all who heard it. Now, if they were in God's Kingdom or paradise, it wouldn't make sense if others experienced the emotion of fear. They would feel sorrow because they miss them but not fear. For Paul says to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Now, I do not believe the Scriptures teach all sin is the same. Jesus said there is a "greater sin." There are sins that lead to death (the second death or the Lake of fire) and sins (minor faults and not serious sins, like not being baptized - 1 Peter 3:21) that do not lead to death (1 John 5:16-18). There are also unforgivable type sins. Those who worship the beast and take his mark do not even have their names written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. Those who commit the sin of speaking blasphemy (bad words) against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven in this life or the one to come (the Millennium). If one commits suicide and is not brought back to life by doctors or a miracle of God (whereby they will have a chance to repent of it), they are not forgiven. If a believer had the Holy Spirit and the gifts thereof and they decided to reject Jesus, they are not saved. Please take note that Peter did not have the Spirit when he rejected His Lord. But do I believe it is possible for a believer to not reject Jesus and yet backslide into a life of sin and become unsaved by their sin? Yes. But I also believe they can return back to God in this case and be forgiven of their life style of sin. This is illustrated to us in the parable of the prodigal son and James 5:19-20.

Anyways, our friend here erroneously believes that future sin is forgiven a believer but even he admits that this is only applied if they confess of their sin and if they generally live a holy life. But yet he said we are evil. How can one be evil and yet live holy? Yes, Jesus forgives us when we first come to Him and we do not have to confess sins every single sin from our old life to be saved. But we do have to confess and forsake all serious sins after coming to Christ. Our friend here thinks that if I generally live a holy life but yet die in one or two serious sins like hate or lying I will be still saved because future sin is forgiven me. This is OSAS type #2 and it is just as wrong and evil as OSAS type #1 because they both are seeking to justify serious sin with the thinking one is saved on some level.

OSAS Type #1 says you can sin as much as you like and still be saved. All one needs is a belief on Jesus as their Savior.

OSAS Type #2 is a little more deceptive and requires a little more investigative work to get them to spill the beans to eventually admit their own belief. They are basically saying you have to generally live a holy life to be a believer but dying in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) does not mean one is not saved. Basically you can get away with a little bit of sin versus a lot of sin.

This is why you will very rarely see OSAS type #2 folk correcting OSAS type #1 people. At least in my experience anyways.


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[Bible Highlighter]

"And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" (1 Peter 4:18).


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[jimmyjimmy]

"And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" (1 Peter 4:18).


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Are the righteous "scarcely" saved by what Christ has done or some other means?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Are the righteous "scarcely" saved by what Christ has done or some other means?

Jesus saves us both in Justification (by believing in Him and what He has done for us) and in Sanctification (by allowing Christ to do the good work thru us by our cooperating with Him). Salvation is abiding in Jesus Christ who is the source of our eternal life. For if one abides in Christ, good fruit and not bad fruit will be evident in one's life. Salvation is Relationship-ism (Jesus) and Salvation is not Belief Alone-ism or Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism.


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[Kaleb5000]

Well, nowhere did I say one cannot repent of their sins

and in a previous post I admitted to not misunderstanding the phrase unrepentant. I took it to mean sin you have not yet confessed. But I see now that you mean it as sin one is refusing to repent and continues to live in. If this person were to tell me once saved always saved. I would tell them to read the bible and see what it means to be saved and a follower of Christ and seriously ask themselves if the Holy Spirit dwells in them.

I was saying if one died in the sin of murder, or the sin of lying, or the sin of adultery, etc. without repenting of it (before they die), they will not be forgiven or saved.

Here is my problem with that and it is not biblical I will admit that. But If lying is a sin and we do not repent for it we are all going to hell. We are all liars. We all tell little lies from time to time. Whether you mean to or not. That does not mean we should knowingly lie or justify it because we are OSAS. But we all slip up and the day gets busy and we forget all about it. So alot of us probably 99.9% are going to hell for not repenting of a lie.

Now, I do not believe the Scriptures teach all sin is the same. Jesus said there is a "greater sin." There are sins that lead to death (the second death or the Lake of fire) and sins (minor faults and not serious sins, like not being baptized

So you are saying there is sin you can not repent of and not recieve forgiveness for?

But yet he said we are evil. How can one be evil and yet live holy?

I should of clarified a little all believers WERE evil before Christ. It is Christ who makes us Holy.

serious sins

Does the bible rank one sin over a other? Is beating your wife worse then homosexuality? Or is lying worse then adultery? I see no scoreboard for sin.

Our friend here thinks that if I generally live a holy life but yet die in one or two serious sins like hate or lying I will be still saved because future sin is forgiven me.

I do not think if I live Holy I will be saved. I have never said such a thing. There is nothing I can do to save myself. There is only one way to the Father and that is through Christ Jesus. Jesus saved me.

Hebrews 10:10-14:

By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

notice Paul says Jesus "offered one sacrifice for sins for all time." All time not just past or present but all time. Because if Jesus's sacrifice did not cover sin for all time then he would have to be crucified over and over. What hope is there in that?

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


As far as dying in sin. If I follow Christ and accept him fully yet forgot to repent of a sin I am still saved. I will not be banished for forgetting to repent about a lie I told a year ago.

Hebrews 10:26
"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,"

key word deliberately. So a person who claims once saved always saved and knowingly lives in sin is not saved and was never saved. They clearly do not have the Holy Spirit residing in them. but if our sins were not deliberate then there still remains a sacrifice.