Are Protestants dead?

[The Times]

Post retracted.

 

[The Times]

I didnt see the answer to the OP question.

Why not? It is there. Can you find it?

 

[Archivist]

Am I?

The views regarding Holy Communion vary widely between Protestant denominations. Lutherans and Anglicans have very different views from Baptists.

 

[The Times]

I didnt see the answer to the OP question.

Post #192 also.....

Are Protestants dead?

 

[thecolorsblend]

The views regarding Holy Communion vary widely between Protestant denominations. Lutherans and Anglicans have very different views from Baptists.

Mmm, I see what you mean. So if I’ve got this right, when I said in an earlier post that some Protestants (such as Lutherans and some Anglicans) do believe in the Real Presence, you’re saying I had a fair point? Golly...

 

[Randy777]

Because we are taught both inside the Catholic Churches and Sunday School that Protestants have a different understanding of the "Lord's Supper."
The whole idea is that Catholics actually believe that the bread and wine become the actual true Body and Blood of Christ. MOST Protestants do not have the same belief.

So what does your "Church" teach? Are christians who don't partake communion on a regular basis still saved?

 

[The Times]

I was told by Catholics that Protestants dont actually partake of the real Lords supper. If this is true then doesnt that mean that protestants are dead, according to John 6:53?

The real supper is not a misinterpretation of John 6:53.

Shall have drunk (Imperfect Future tense)

You shall certainly drink from my cup.

The act of preparing a human altar for sanctification onto martyrdom.

The imperfect future tense is a continuous act, of sanctification of a human altar, according to St. Augustine of Antioch.

Shall certainly drink, it is the continuous act of being transformed as a believer, through the partaking of the King, at communion, in Spirit.

 

[Theo Book]

I started this thread as a spin off thread from another thread i have going. As i was discussing the Lords supper, I was told by Catholics that Protestants dont actually partake of the real Lords supper. If this is true then doesnt that mean that protestants are dead, according to John 6:53?

John 6:53 New King James Version (NKJV)
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

I see two issues here, both of which are based upon dividing words supplied by Men, not God.

The first of these is "Transubstantiation" a word invented early in the church's history as one denomination took over the others through threat of death for alleged "Heresy."

It means there is a crossing over of a substance to become a different substance; i.e., bread and wine BECOME (transubstantiation) body and blood of the Christ.

The second issue is based upon the occasion in which the Apostle Paul castigated the church for dividing into denominations.

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"[I Cor 1:10-13]

I am of Rome; I am of John the Baptiser; I am of Martin Luther; I am of the church of Christ;"

Paul made no exception for any of them. He did not say "Everyone except those who are of_____ are wrong!" Nope! He said all are wrong for excluding ANY brother over dividing issues.

So anyone who excludes others for questioning a doctrine, or a tradition, or an issue not expressly stated in scripture, is as wrong as those corrected by Paul for dividing the body of Christ.

As for the issue of communion, some even divide over whether it is limited to Sunday; others insist the Sabbath (Saturday) is the exclusive assignment; still others insist it can be taken "As oft" as desired, even daily if practiced consistently.

Christ does NOT divide brethren over issues which may have different interpretations within the pages of scripture itself. Man-made doctrines and traditions have no place in the decision making process.

We answer to a common redeemer, not to self-appointed church leaders or favorite preachers.

 

[Galilee63]

If a friend asked you to remember him, would you frame a photograph of his bloody body at an accident scene, and stare at it? People (C or P) that are hooked up on that may just be missing everything Jesus lived for.

Willie it is actually our Lord Jesus Christ Himself Whom said to thousands of His Catholic Saints Nuns to Love Adore Venerate Me on The Cross particularly My Sacred Wounds on The Cross of which in Heaven are like Gold in The Crucible and Holy Divine Gifts Blessings and Graces in our Lords Holy Divine Mercy and Will come from immersing our hearts Souls and illnesses Grief Sorrows Sadness whatever people suffer in our Lords Holy Sacred Wounds and Precious Holy Blood

Then Jesus asks us all to Beseech God The Most High our Heavenly Divine Majesty our Holy Glorious Father to look upon our Lord Jesus Holy Sacred Cross in Heaven and through His Holy Sacred Wounds offering them up with our Lord Jesus Holy Divine Love united with My Mothers Love for God while praying His Holy Wound Chaplet delivered by Jesus Himself to Holy Saint Marie Chambon in the early 1900s

If you read Gods Holy Word Willie on all Holy Passages in God our Heavenly Fathers Old Holy Covenant and Jesus New Covenant of Gods Holy Spirit you will realise that we were saved by God through repentance of sins Blood Offerings of undefiled animals pure unblemished then God brought His Holy Divine Lamb Whom saves us through His Precious Holy Divine Blood in many Holy Divine Heavenly Mysteries one being through His Holy Flesh and Holy Blood in Holy Mass and in our Lords Precious Holy Blood droplets from Heaven poured out upon those prayed for in our Lords Holy Divine Will and His Holy Timing and another in our Lords Holy Divine Mercy Rays Shone upon us and or through immersion of hearts Souls in our Lords Holy Sacred Wounds and Precious Holy Blood and or through Holy Confession where Jesus said to Holy Saint Faustina He is Present behind His Priests waiting for the misery of souls to approach My Fount of Mercy then Our Lord Jesus in Holy Absolution shines His Holy Two Rays one being His Holy Sacred Blood the other our Lords Holy Divine Water on that Soul purifying and Cleansing the sins confessed

Our Lord Jesus says He Loves hearts focussing on Him on The Cross and on His Bitter Passion His Sorrows Torments and Agonies in order for us in prayer and talking with Him receiving Him into hearts deeply

I know part of where you are coming from however it's the opposite to what you believe and think and feel Willie because it is through our Lords Precious Holy Divine Sacred Blood that we are saved every time

We were born in Gods Holy Divine Blood and Water from our Mothers Womb created by God The Most High

To turn away from our Lord Jesus Christ on The Cross is denying Jesus Holy Heavenly Divinity and His Holy Divine Mysteries most of all it's denying the deepest most Loving Holy in Him Relationships with our Lord Jesus Christ that anyone can ever have now

 

[Galilee63]

Gods Holy Word

Jesus Christ God The Most High Holy Spirit and Most Holy Mother Mary all strongly encourage each Century thousands of His Holy Saints to Focus on Me on The Cross Adore Me in My Blessed Sacrament "few do this" our Lord Jesus said and to Love Honour Adore Me and My Sacred Wounds and Precious Holy Blood

 

[Galilee63]

O Eternal Father I offer Thee The Body and Blood Soul and Divinity of Thy Dearly Beloved Son our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for our sins and those of the whole world Amen

From God The Most High and Holy Spirit our Lord Jesus Himself

O Eternal Father I offer Thee The Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son Jesus in union with the Masses said throughout the world today for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory for sinners everywhere for sinners in the Universal Church for those in my own home and within my family Amen

Delivered by God The Most High to Saint Claude to Saint Gertrude to Saint Bridget and to thousands of Gods Holy Saints now in Heaven in accordance with His Holy Word Old Holy Divine Covenant and New Holy Divine Covenant our Lord Jesus Christ Himself

Is

Gods Holy Word Himself since the beginning of the Foundation of the earth laying Gods Foundations in Him with Him in Holy Spirit

O Eternal Father I offer Thee The Wounds of our Lord Jesus Christ to heal the Wounds of our Souls Amen

From God Our Most Holy Divine Glorious Majesty in our Lord Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit

O Eternal Father I offer Thee The Holy Divine Love of our Lord Jesus Christs united with our Most Holy Blessed Virgin Mother Mary's Love in Their Two Holy Divine Hearts for Thee for the whole world and the prolonging of Thy Mercy in our Lord Jesus Christ Holy Spirit and in Most Holy Mother Mary Amen

O Blood and Water which gushed forth from The Heart of Jesus as a Fount of Mercy for us I trust in You

Jesus Christ delivered all of these Holy prayers for conversions and salvation of all souls whom are then led to repentance healing then to salvation Jesus says whom prays the above x 3 times

You will notice on Cf many Christians not so much Catholics Beseech Jesus through His Precious Blood in particular prayer Warriors of many different Christian denominations and those hearts people you can be sure have received Jesus into their hearts as opposed to just minds they have a deep loving relationship with Jesus Holy Spirit and smile unbeknownst to them Most Holy Mother Mary

Holy Heavenly Divine Mysteries of God The Most Highs Unfathomable to us mere mortals

 

[Galilee63]

Gods Universal Church with Holy Masses first

Souls are saved by Jesus Himself through His Holy Divine Masses offered up in His Precious Holy Flesh and Blood and Holy Wounds in His Holy Divine Real Physical and Spiritual Presence Jesus said at His Holy Divine Altars

Jesus favours humble souls the most in Holy Confession He said to thousands of His Holy Saints

 

[W2L]

With respect, I am entitled to challenge relevant dogmatic statements made on the thread
My comment was valid 3/ in my list below - some seem surprised that any version of eucharist will not do. I urge them to study early church. Few protestant churches can even mount a relevant argument they have a valid eucharist in the terms the apostolic succession defined.

The answer to the bigger question is complex. Not yes/no

Both aquinas and augustine have clarified this at considerable length, as have magisterial statements been made as well.

To summarise a long theological debate.
Dogma is...
1/ Baptism is necessary
2/ To be effective a eucharist needs to be valid - the point I addressed
3/ The eucharist can be as effective in condemning as it is in saving. "eat and drink judgement" - it is not enough just to partake.
4/ That the reason eucharist is centre of our faith is that Jesus is centre of our faith, and Jesus truly present in the eucharist.
5/ Knowing that and failing to act on it or indeed profaning it is therefore a serious sin and sin does endanger salvation
6/ Not being aware of it does not carry the risk that knowingly avoiding it does. But nobody on this thread can say they "did not know" if they fail to take this opportuity to see what the fathers say.

7/ In the end it is an ordinance of our Lord that you must do so. And since none of us merit salvation, it is therefore by Grace alone we are saved, disobeying a direct ordinance , indeed disobeying a direct call by Christ to meet him in the eucharist clearly demonstrates lack of faith. And it is grace through formed faith which therefore requires the best attempt you can muster to meet the ordinances.

8/ But it is by grace we are saved , the decision is by Christ alone. But clearly failing to do what he asks you to do in any regard (eg sheep and goats) can have CONSEQUENCES!.

9/He cannot make it clearer. If you eat my body, drink my blood you will have eternal life. If you do not you have no life in you. Why would you ignore such a statement?

So in summary you definitely harm your chances. Badly.

10/ Let me turn the question on its head.

If you are given an invitation to meet Christ, in heaven meets earth. Why as a christian would you not accept the invitiation? and what does it say of the formation of your faith if you do not?
We accept the invitation, as often as we can.

Its a simple question.

 

[W2L]

Why not? It is there. Can you find it?

A yes or no answer would be helpful.

 

[W2L]

I see two issues here, both of which are based upon dividing words supplied by Men, not God.

The first of these is "Transubstantiation" a word invented early in the church's history as one denomination took over the others through threat of death for alleged "Heresy."

It means there is a crossing over of a substance to become a different substance; i.e., bread and wine BECOME (transubstantiation) body and blood of the Christ.

The second issue is based upon the occasion in which the Apostle Paul castigated the church for dividing into denominations.

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"[I Cor 1:10-13]

I am of Rome; I am of John the Baptiser; I am of Martin Luther; I am of the church of Christ;"

Paul made no exception for any of them. He did not say "Everyone except those who are of_____ are wrong!" Nope! He said all are wrong for excluding ANY brother over dividing issues.

So anyone who excludes others for questioning a doctrine, or a tradition, or an issue not expressly stated in scripture, is as wrong as those corrected by Paul for dividing the body of Christ.

As for the issue of communion, some even divide over whether it is limited to Sunday; others insist the Sabbath (Saturday) is the exclusive assignment; still others insist it can be taken "As oft" as desired, even daily if practiced consistently.

Christ does NOT divide brethren over issues which may have different interpretations within the pages of scripture itself. Man-made doctrines and traditions have no place in the decision making process.

We answer to a common redeemer, not to self-appointed church leaders or favorite preachers.

I agree.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You cannot cherry pick verses. You are proof texting again.

It is clearly not symbolic. How can you profane a symbol? Why were they horrified .. because he used the word that means "gnaw" as of flesh, not consume. Why did the romans think they were cannibals? If they did not to quote ignatius "profess the eucharist to be the body and blood of our lord" "real flesh" as Justin martyr said.

You cannot interpret scripture without authority and tradition handed by the apostles. It is why protestants schism on every matter including eucharist.

The entire church, believed it was the "flesh of jesus"until renegades in the reformation, and most of it still does. Athough there is a philosophical distinction between us and orthodox.

The bible also makes it quite clear you can profane the eucharist and "eat and drink judgement" on yourself. How so if itis just a symbol. So your reference to Judas disregards scripture.

One day, people like you might just study early fathers, and find out what the apostles taught the early church! It is clear what John taught...you see it in ignatius.

I know what Ignatius wrote in his Epistle to the Smyrnaeans I’ve read it sir. I’ve also mentioned to you earlier this week that Iranaeus specifically stated

When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorantof tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but vivâ voce. Adversus Haereses Book3 Chapter2 1st sentence

The source of Godly knowledge is the Holy Spirit. It is not confined exclusively to the Catholic Church. Please understand it is not my intention to discredit the Roman Church. I believe salvation can be found both in and out of the RCC but no church is beyond error.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

I started this thread as a spin off thread from another thread i have going. As i was discussing the Lords supper, I was told by Catholics that Protestants dont actually partake of the real Lords supper. If this is true then doesnt that mean that protestants are dead, according to John 6:53?

John 6:53 New King James Version (NKJV)
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

Protestants dead? Some questions to be answered by the NT scriptures:
Question: How often does a person need to take Communion to count as sufficient for salvation?

Answer: The Bible does not say. Once may be sufficient, just like with Baptism. Besides, I never heard of a protestant who never partook of the Lord’s Supper. Perhaps some converts in foreign prisons. What about the thief on the cross or those people who have deathbed conversions? Being legalistic about this is exactly what Paul argued against with the Jewish Christians who pushed the requirement of circumcision. God knows each of our hearts, and ultimately that is what will matter.

Question: How much do these sayings express a symbolic and spiritual reality rather than a physical and ritualistic requirement?

Answer: Belief in Him is what Jesus mostly preached about, not any kind of ritual. The body and blood metaphor was used only once in the gospel accounts prior to the Last Supper celebration of the Passover with His Apostles. Many times, however, we hear of the necessity of belief for salvation (for example, John 3:16, John 6:29, and many other places).

Believing that His sacrifice of body and blood is what merited our salvation is the important gospel point, along with our unity with Him by faith--- this is what the bread and wine so graphically express. There is nothing magic in the ritual. It is spiritual act of worship by those who are already saved believers, not a manipulative transaction to make God save us (which would be superstitious and pagan). The Lord is always Really Present with believers and the Holy Spirit is always in believers … from first faith forward.

“Don't you know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?” (1 Cor 3:16)
“Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom have received from God?” (1 Cor 6:19)

“And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another helper, even the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in You.” (John 14:16-17; “in you”- meaning from Pentecost forward)

“Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.” (Revelation 3:20)

“And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (Jesus, in Matt 28:20)

“.. for He has said, ‘I will never leave you nor forsake you.’” (Hebrews 13:5)

This is about faith in Christ, and His always being with and in us, not just at the Eucharist/ Communion service. It is our heart, our faith, and our relationship with Christ that matters, not the little ritualistic things we do to express that faith. We cannot manipulate God. He is not some supernatural machine where we plunk in our two coins and out comes our salvation. Rather, it is about a real relationship.

 

[Enlightened Through Truth]

I started this thread as a spin off thread from another thread i have going. As i was discussing the Lords supper, I was told by Catholics that Protestants dont actually partake of the real Lords supper. If this is true then doesnt that mean that protestants are dead, according to John 6:53?

John 6:53 New King James Version (NKJV)
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

Absolutely not! Because Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross to cover all sins with his blood. All that is required is to put your trust and faith in Jesus

 

[redleghunter]

That would depend on which mass. Sunday masses seem to last an hour. Weekday masses last 30 minutes. That is how the books present the matter.

And if he mass is a high mass. But Fr. Foley could get through a Sunday or Saturday evening mass in 33 minutes flat.

The inside joke was that since he was the chaplain to the local Fire Dept. he said mass like he was getting to a fire.

 

[Ronald]

At masses the old testament is read then a psalm then a reading from Paul's letters or some other part of the new testament and finally a reading from the gospel. After the readings comes a homily that is usually centred on the gospel reading. After the homily there are prayers and then the Holy Eucharist. That is what Catholic books say and what is in a Catholic Missal. Have a look and see for yourself that reading scripture before receiving communion is the norm.

As Jesus told us to do: "and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, 'Take, eat: this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me'. In the same manner he also took the cup after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
1 Cor. 11:24, 25.
Now, He hadn't sacrificed His body and shed His blood yet, so if what Catholics believe is true, how could it be true at that table at that time? How could that bread and wine have been his literal body and blood? It was a ritual done to reflect on, give thanks and join together in common beliefs, unity, as a body, just as Passover reflected on when the Angel of Death passed over them in Moses' time. That was a shadow of Christ in essence. The blood was painted over the doors as Jesus's blood cleanses our hearts and the death itself is defeated.
The Jews had performed rituals and shared many feasts that all were celebrated to remember what God did for them. They were all symbolic. Jesus was using bread as a symbol for Himself, the Bread of Life, that we consume. Our belief in Him is spiritual, it is not physically consumed! He was using the wine to represent His blood sacrifice that He was about to make and also represented His New Covenant. Without His blood sacrifice and resurrection, we would be still in our sins. It is the serious reflection of what He did for us, an eternal gift of love that I take seriously and remember. Honestly, His death and resurrection is brought to mind everyday, not once a week or when I receive communion.
In the next verse Paul said: "For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes." 1 Cor. 11:26
So, we reflect on our lives, prepare ourselves, approach the table with a pure heart, give thanks to Him for our salvation and receive the elements and remember His sacrifice and Covenant. We proclaim the New Covenant (which was fulfilled by His blood) and His return as well. We commune together and where two or more pray, He is there with us.
Water Baptism is symbolic for the washing of our sins as well. It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves. The thief next to Christ was neither baptized nor did he receive bread and wine, but he believed and confessed the Lord with his mouth and was saved. People before they die are given last rights (without water baptism or communion) and if they repent and humbly ask for forgiveness, and believe that Jesus died for our sins, rose on the third day, they will be saved.