Are Protestants dead?

[W2L]

Because we are taught both inside the Catholic Churches and Sunday School that Protestants have a different understanding of the "Lord's Supper."

The whole idea is that Catholics actually believe that the bread and wine become the actual true Body and Blood of Christ. MOST Protestants do not have the same belief.

Are protestants dead according to John 6:53?

John 6:53 New King James Version (NKJV)
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Then define the apostolic tradition.

I only have time for one response at this time. The answer, to teach with the authority of the Apostles. That is authority that is handed down from them.

 

[aiki]

It wasn't obvious to the people who abandoned Him in St. John 6... a point which nobody in this thread seems willing to discuss.

I think it was obvious to those in John 6 to whom Christ was speaking that he was speaking figuratively - so much so that his meaning was completely opaque to them.

John 6:51-58
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

Jesus is referring to his sacrifice at Calvary here. Without his atoning death on the cross, Christ's presence on Earth would not have meant "life for the world." He was "wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him and by his stripes we are healed." (Isa. 53:5) In his flesh, Christ suffered terrible punishment and in so doing obtained salvation for all who would receive it. This is what Christ meant when he said, "the bread that I shall give is my flesh"; he was not referring to a communion cracker.

52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"
53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

Is there any instance in Scripture where anyone literally eats Christ's flesh and drinks his blood? Nope, not one. The Twelve didn't drain a few liters of blood from Christ's veins and drink it, nor did they carve him up like a roast turkey and munch on his flesh. But they did, by faith, trust in him as their Saviour and Lord and became thereby recipients of the atonement obtained for them by the broken body and shed blood of Christ. This is what it means to "eat" Christ's flesh and "drink" his blood.

John 6:63-64 (NKJV)
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

Here Christ orients his disciples properly in comprehending his words. It is by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, called the Spirit of Christ by the apostle Paul (Ro. 8:9), that a lost sinner obtains the life of Christ. Literally eating the flesh of Christ was not what Christ was actually describing; he was speaking of a spiritual reality, a spiritual life, the life of the Spirit, taken hold of by faith in Christ as Saviour and Lord. Paul explains to Titus:

Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Paul makes Christ's meaning very plain in his letter to the Romans:

Romans 8:9-11
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[The Times]

The Liturgy, necessarily requires, in order to be fulfilled and complete, a human altar (Temple of God), not a built one. But the altar erected in the Church, where two or more are gathered in my name, which is built on the relics of the saints, means that the true altar is the martyr, a human being turned completely into Christ (Sanctification for martyrdom). Martyrs have turned into Christ like Image, to the extreme limits of the capabilities of human nature, to martyrdom, and martyrdom becomes a symbol of eucharistic sacrifice “That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.” (Philp 3:10). St. Augustine of Antioch on his way to martyrdom in Rome, wrote to the Romans saying: “I am the wheat of God, and let me be ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of Christ.”(Chp IV) (Sanctification for martyrdom). Therefore, when we are fed Christ at the Eucharist we must have the Christ intentions, which is a mentality of love and sacrifice even to death (To die for your Lord). A Christian adapts his life to that of Christ not of this world, he must grow in us the spirit of love and sacrifice such as that of Christ himself, in order to be able to complete our Christian journey of life in this world (No Purgatory in the After life). We cannot continue living in this Christian living without that Christian spirit, the spirit of love, sacrifice and offering, the spirit of a wheat grain that dies in order to give many fruits… “For it is not my desire that you should please men, but God, even as also you do please Him. For neither shall I ever hereafter have such an opportunity of attaining to God; nor will you, if you shall now be silent, ever be entitled to the honour of a better work…I desire the bread (spiritual and through our sanctification) of God, the heavenly bread, the bread of life, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ…I desire the drink (spiritual and through our sanctification), namely His blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life.” (Chp VII).

Our bodies (Temple of God) become the living sacrifices which transfers the sufferings of Christ onto the sanctified believers, through trans-substitution of the spiritual body and spiritual blood of Christ in the human altar. (Romans 12:1)

Finally, we have reached the understanding that the liturgy has three faces, Heavenly, Ecclesiastically (Church), and from the heart. But they are all ONE Liturgy and we cannot disconnect them or separate them. They are the One Church, which Christ is the corner stone of this building. He is personally in heaven, and in mysteriously in the body of the Church on earth and in our hearts where there is no life without his existence. Therefore, this Liturgy of Body and Blood of Christ, is a complete, universal, and entire. A liturgy that encompass heaven and earth, Angels and human, saints and non-saints, and through this Liturgy we will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, the kingdom of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Through and by this Liturgy we are hollowed, and we are hollowed we will carry the word of God to others.

In conclusion, the real presence of Christ is enveloped in the one Church, comprising of the heavenly and the earthly, encompassing Heavenly, Ecclesiastically (Church), and from the heart of every witness present at the Eucharist.

The trans-substitution is happening within the human altar, so that those sanctified for martyrdom, in the Image of Christ are become the body and blood of Christ, manifest in the earthly realm, for the world to see the works of God, by the sanctifying works of the Holy Spirit. Christ's presence is in the temple of God, as Jesus said.....

"You in me and I in you"

And in another place he says....

You shall surely drink from my cup, for this points to the greater calling, that is sanctification to martyrdom and we who are sanctified in Christ become the living sacrifices, that are pleasing to God.

As far as producing flesh and blood in the earthly realm through objects like bread and wine, is never the purpose of the Eucharist. The purpose is to make the believers the good tasting wine that would be pleasing to the wedding organiser who is God the Father, who compliments his Son at his wedding, in saying that you have left the best tasting wine until last. So his body and bread commemorated in Christ, is for the memorial of our own bodies, the human altar, who is being transformed literally in our adoption into sonship.

No priest is performing the sacrifice, rather our Father in Heaven, is binding up things from earth to heaven, in honouring his Son, by transforming us into the Image of his beloved Son, Jesus Christ. As St. Augustine of Antioch would say present your bodies as living memorials onto God. This is where Jesus said.....

whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 18:18)

 

[redleghunter]

I only have time for one response at this time. The answer, to teach with the authority of the Apostles. That is authority that is handed down from them.

Which means faithfully transmitting and upholding the Truth.

 

[Christie insb]

No, the real presence is held by a number of Protestants. The unique Catholic belief is the real absence, i.e. that the elements not only become Christ's body and blood but stop being bread and wine. I've always suspected that the difference is more in metaphysical terminology than reality (at least with Lutherans, Anglicans, and probably Reformed).

Well... I learned the Doctrine of the Real Presence when I joined a LCA church back when there was such a thing. I see the difference as being metaphysical too, but what the LCMS taught was not what I learned. Add: I just read something on Wikipedia that indicated that they do believe in the Doctrine of the Real Presence, so obviously it is my understanding that is lacking.

 

[redleghunter]

Are protestants dead according to John 6:53?

John 6:53 New King James Version (NKJV)
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

Followers of Christ are the Body of Christ. St Augustine is clear on this:


St Augustine SERMON 272
On the Day of Pentecost to the Infantes, on the SacramentDate: 408
One thing is seen, another is to be understood


What you see on God's altar, you've already observed during the night that has now ended. But you've heard nothing about just what it might be, or what it might mean, or what great thing it might be said to symbolize. For what you see is simply bread and a cup - this is the information your eyes report. But your faith demands far subtler insight: the bread is Christ's body, the cup is Christ's blood. Faith can grasp the fundamentals quickly, succinctly, yet it hungers for a fuller account of the matter. As the prophet says, "Unless you believe, you will not understand." [Is. 7.9; Septuagint] So you can say to me, "You urged us to believe; now explain, so we can understand." Inside each of you, thoughts like these are rising: "Our Lord Jesus Christ, we know the source of his flesh; he took it from the virgin Mary.

Like any infant, he was nursed and nourished; he grew; became a youngster; suffered persecution from his own people. To the wood he was nailed; on the wood he died; from the wood, his body was taken down and buried. On the third day (as he willed) he rose; he ascended bodily into heaven whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. There he dwells even now, seated at God's right. So how can bread be his body? And what about the cup? How can it (or what it contains) be his blood?" My friends, these realities are called sacraments because in them one thing is seen, while another is grasped. What is seen is a mere physical likeness; what is grasped bears spiritual fruit. So now, if you want to understand the body of Christ, listen to the Apostle Paul speaking to the faithful: "You are the body of Christ, member for member." [1 Cor. 12.27] If you, therefore, are Christ's body and members, it is your own mystery that is placed on the Lord's table! It is your own mystery that you are receiving! You are saying "Amen" to what you are: your response is a personal signature, affirming your faith. When you hear "The body of Christ", you reply "Amen." Be a member of Christ's body, then, so that your "Amen" may ring true! But what role does the bread play? We have no theory of our own to propose here; listen, instead, to what Paul says about this sacrament: "The bread is one, and we, though many, are one body." [1 Cor. 10.17] Understand and rejoice: unity, truth, faithfulness, love. "One bread," he says. What is this one bread? Is it not the "one body," formed from many?

Remember: bread doesn't come from a single grain, but from many. When you received exorcism, you were "ground." When you were baptized, you were "leavened." When you received the fire of the Holy Spirit, you were "baked." Be what you see; receive what you are. This is what Paul is saying about the bread. So too, what we are to understand about the cup is similar and requires little explanation. In the visible object of bread, many grains are gathered into one just as the faithful (so Scripture says) form "a single heart and mind in God" [Acts 4.32]. And thus it is with the wine. Remember, friends, how wine is made. Individual grapes hang together in a bunch, but the juice from them all is mingled to become a single brew. This is the image chosen by Christ our Lord to show how, at his own table, the mystery of our unity and peace is solemnly consecrated.

All who fail to keep the bond of peace after entering this mystery receive not a sacrament that benefits them, but an indictment that condemns them. So let us give God our sincere and deepest gratitude, and, as far as human weakness will permit, let us turn to the Lord with pure hearts. With all our strength, let us seek God's singular mercy, for then the Divine Goodness will surely hear our prayers. God's power will drive the Evil One from our acts and thoughts; it will deepen our faith, govern our minds, grant us holy thoughts, and lead us, finally, to share the divine happiness through God's own son Jesus Christ. Amen!

Augustine Sermon 272 on The Eucharist

 

[Eloy Craft]

Is there any instance in Scripture where anyone literally eats Christ's flesh and drinks his blood? Nope, not one. T

whos claim are you attempting to refute? Is anyone making this claim?

 

[GingerBeer]

Well, it was a common perspective of Protestants, thinking Catholics did not study their bible much. And then there are the apparent empty repetitious prayers that contain no personal communication to God.

At masses the old testament is read then a psalm then a reading from Paul's letters or some other part of the new testament and finally a reading from the gospel. After the readings comes a homily that is usually centred on the gospel reading. After the homily there are prayers and then the Holy Eucharist. That is what Catholic books say and what is in a Catholic Missal. Have a look and see for yourself that reading scripture before receiving communion is the norm.

 

[redleghunter]

At masses the old testament is read then a psalm then a reading from Paul's letters or some other part of the new testament and finally a reading from the gospel. After the readings comes a homily that is usually centred on the gospel reading. After the homily there are prayers and then the Holy Eucharist. That is what Catholic books say and what is in a Catholic Missal. Have a look and see for yourself that reading scripture before receiving communion is the norm.

That's about right and what I remember. Timelines vary . I knew one priest who would take an entire hour for the mass. Then there was Fr. Foley who could get through a mass in 33 mins flat.

 

[GingerBeer]

That's about right and what I remember. Timelines vary . I knew one priest who would take an entire hour for the mass. Then there was Fr. Foley who could get through a mass in 33 mins flat.

That would depend on which mass. Sunday masses seem to last an hour. Weekday masses last 30 minutes. That is how the books present the matter.

 

[Mountainmike]

Protestants partake in the lord's supper just as much as any other denomination. I'm not sure your catholic friends got that information.

Oh, so now Protestants do take the real Lords supper?

Not according to apostolic teaching.

Read ignatius to smyrneans ( he and polycarp taught by John the apostle who should know, since he wrote the gospel and knew what Christ intended,

Read that letter, that describes the true doctrine handed down.
A valid Eucharist is only possible if performed by an appointed succession bishop or his nominee, and that of course also omits all who renounced their succession by breaking with the church.( or by expressing allegiance elsewhere) so excommunicated by their own decision or the church.

He declares as heretic those who " confess not the Eucharist to be the body and blood of Jesus" or as Justin Martyr says even more clearly " the flesh of Jesus" which is stated in orthodox liturgy. None except a few heretics even disputed this till mid second millennium.

Which leaves many churches without even a possible justification for validity in the terms iraneus defines, since they have no clergy or succession.

Indeed any who regard it as just symbolic, i.e. Other than flesh.

Protestants should study the early church, before judge.

 

[The Times]

Post retracted.

 

[The Times]

Post retracted.

 

[The Times]

Post retracted.

 

[The Times]

Post retracted.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Which means faithfully transmitting and upholding the Truth.

Yes

It is clear Irenaeus recognized the Holy Scriptures as Holy Spirit inspired through the Prophets and apostles.

It is clear to me too.

Indeed. Now what are these traditions of apostolic origin which are not written in Sacred Scriptures?

When you say 'traditions' I get the feeling you mean some documented teaching that is refered to as a tool of instruction or reminding. Or 'written' it must be described in explicit detail to be the faith of the Apostles.

A tradition is also a practice, or a rule of life. St Francis renewed apostolic faith in a rule of life that is like the seventy disciples Jesus sent to places He intended to go. They were not to have money, no bag to carry belongings and not even shoes. They were to be completely dependent on others. St Francis lived this life and it was fruitful for him and the Church and now is a part of the Living tradition of the Apostles. I can't disagree with you that the Apostolic Tradition is united to Sacred Scripture in that they both flow from the same source.

I fully understand Cardinal Newman's Doctrinal Development theology from the 19th Century (required reading in Jesuit university). It was shortly after that that your magisterium started to 'remember' traditions long forgotten.

I am not familiar enough to comment on that. I don't understand what you mean or point you are trying to make.

Again what are the big "T" traditions not handed down in writing---Sacred Scriptures?

I'll post Jesus honoring a Big 'T' tradition and denouncing the little 't' traditions. Can't put the little 't' before the big 't'

Matt. 23
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it;

And then He lists traditions that are supposed to make things easier for particular times and places that they refuse to lift or do themselves.

Matt 23:16-23
“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the sanctuary is bound by nothing, but whoever swears by the gold of the sanctuary is bound by the oath.’ 17 You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the sanctuary that has made the gold sacred? 18 And you say, ‘Whoever swears by the altar is bound by nothing, but whoever swears by the gift that is on the altar is bound by the oath.’ 19 How blind you are! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred?

Jesus puts things back in proper order in the passages 20 -22 below.

Matt 23:20-22
20 So whoever swears by the altar, swears by it and by everything on it; 21 and whoever swears by the sanctuary, swears by it and by the one who dwells in it; 22 and whoever swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by the one who is seated upon it.

A little more clear indictment of the practices of Tradition from God that are necessary for eternal life being put under traditions that are temporal and meant to support the practices that are necessary

Matt 23:23-24
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practiced without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel!

 

[The Times]

Post retracted.

 

[Daniel R. Hamilton]

Ok, ladies and gentlemen, we all know this is true since there are tears amongst the wheat. For those who are in Christ are alive. If Protesant's be true brothers and sisters in Christ, then no, since they are spiritually alive and their flesh is quickened by The Holy Ghost, which points us to be more like Jesus, and if they be dead and not sanctified then they are to be exercised. Protesant congregation's still exhist so in that since, no they are not dead. Protestant ecompasses other's than Eastern Orthodox-like Hank H. currently, or Roman Catholics. Matthew 13:24-30, Matt 18:20, Luke 20:38.
Here is an okay site: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

 

[Daniel R. Hamilton]

Concerning the resurrection, and the Sadducees, also especially death/life read Matthew 27:52