Are most Messianic Jews overdoing it?

[lucky13]

Having been involved in the Messianic Faith for 10+ years now I am growing concerned with its recent expansion and new look.

It used to be comprised mostly of interfaith couples, Jews who had come to know the Lord and many immigrants. Now we have this far right wing Hal Lindsy / apocalyptic kind of flava. Not that I think its wrong but the title Messianic is becoming obsolete.

When one says they are a messianic Jew they are in effect saying that they acknowledge other forms of Judaism (unlike saying one is orthodox).
When I think of Judaism I think of something a bit tamed down, ritualistic and orderly.

 

[simchat_torah]

When one says they are a messianic Jew they are in effect saying that they acknowledge other forms of Judaism (unlike saying one is orthodox).

I suppose you are unfamiliar with the idea that the first century believers were a Jewish sect?

When I think of Judaism I think of something a bit tamed down, ritualistic and orderly

This only shows your ignorance of Judaism. Each tradition captures a longing in the heart. Each act of obedience expresses the passion from within.

These "rituals" are not empty.

If one has a desire to know and understand, they can find the beauty behind the 'orthodox' expressions.

Shalom,
Yafet.

 

[Multi-Elis]

Am I allowed to say this? Delete this is I'm not.

One of the things that struck me most is how different a lot of the messianic stuff is from the reality I knew - secular jews who's only worry was to do the bat-bar mitzva, celabrate the holidays, and not eat pork. In my messianic synagogue, the one I used to go to, we often found ourselves with delemas between the secular jewish way of life, the expected way to follow the Torah, expected by secular people, and the natural tendancies of the many jews who used to attend regular christian churches before, have.

So some of the stuff... I am sorry to say... seems a little too pushed to me... though I don't care if people having done this all their life continue. It's just that I knew a reality where people were very jewish, and yet their life was different than a lot of what I see outside... forget it. I'm afraid of offending.

 

[lucky13]

I think what I am getting at is the Messianic groups have left themselves venerable to twisted teaching. Benny Hinn like doctrines have made their way into the movement.

I think this is in part due to the lack of support (both ideological and financial) from the "Church".
So when a leader or a movement accepts us we feel obligated to welcome that persons teachings into our movement thus we now have the Prophecy in The news Guys mingled into the movement.

Simchat,
you seemed to have taking the words orderly, tamed down and ritualistic as being of a negative connotation. That doesn't make any sense!
These are positive terms.

 

[Henaynei]

Having been involved in the Messianic Faith for 10+ years now I am growing concerned with its recent expansion and new look.

It used to be comprised mostly of interfaith couples, Jews who had come to know the Lord and many immigrants. Now we have this far right wing Hal Lindsy / apocalyptic kind of flava. Not that I think its wrong but the title Messianic is becoming obsolete.

When one says they are a messianic Jew they are in effect saying that they acknowledge other forms of Judaism (unlike saying one is orthodox).
When I think of Judaism I think of something a bit tamed down, ritualistic and orderly.

If you study any of the great revivals of the past (even Azuza Street) you will find they go through maturing stages. In Messianic Judaism it is all about Torah.

The Messianic congregations who hold you can't have the Ruakh and Torah usually choose to have only the Ruakh and "a form of Judaism" - often seen as "churches w/a kippah." Those who hold that you have to have both the Ruakh and Torah usually are rather much more Jewish traditional and definately growing toward Torah obedience, and you will see much less "freedom of the Spirit," (i.e. Vineyard, two house, etc.).

This can be most clearly seen in the fact that the MJAA (which holds itself as "the" representative of MJism) rotates their yearly International conferences between the two camps.

 

[BenTsion]

I don't think such phenomenon is exclusive to the Messianic movement. Human beings
as a whole have a lot of trouble achieving ANY kind of balance. Besides, the whole
issue of achieving a balance between 'too legalistic and too liberal' is pertinent to the
entire body of Messiah. The fact that Christianity doesn't use the Torah doesn't mean
it doesn't have its sets of dogmas that put them in danger of becoming legalistic (here
in Brazil this happens a lot with 'Neo-Pentecostal' churches). Under the Messianic flag,
such issue takes a different shape, but the core of the problem is still the same. And,
personally, I don't think believers will ever find a solution to such dilemma. At least,
not until Messiah comes back.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

 

[yod]

Many messianic congregations ARE overdoing it...but in the opposite direction that you have mentioned. The Orthopractic movement is much scarier than the charismatic factions, imo. They usually go down a path which leads to denying the divine nature of Yeshua and it seems to permeate the UMJC. The Ephraimite congregations are also pretty stiff but that is the least of their error.

I haven't seen but one hyper-charismatic messianic congregation and it wasn't a cult like Benny GaHinna churches are.

 

[simchat_torah]

The Orthopractic movement is much scarier than the charismatic factions, imo. They usually go down a path which leads to denying the divine nature of Yeshua and it seems to permeate the UMJC. The Ephraimite congregations are also pretty stiff but that is the least of their error.

I dunno, I think I'd have to disagree. Maybe I'm missing what you call "Orthopractic" expressions. Yes, I would agree that many gentiles who pretend to be orthodox (aton, atom, nazarenes, etc) end up denying the Messiah, but these are usually rather "weird" sects/congregations. These groups are usually self-proclaimed gentiles who have no foundation in Torah but instead have strange practices they themselves invented.

However, I myself have attended a great number of these scary pentacostal/messianic congregations. These, in my opinion, are far worse. Not only have they too made up strange theologies, but their practices are borderline demonic.

But some of the most powerful and strong messianic congregations I have attended were firmly rooted in the Torah (you might call this orthodox?). I have seen congregations that have solid theology, are unwavering, have been around for decades, grow in strong numbers, and don't 'change with every wind of doctrine'. Wtihout a set form of observances in the community any wind of doctrine will sway the congregation and very strange and weird things can come about.

The UMJC and Ephraimite congregations are not in this section of believers I'm speaking of. The UMJC was pretty much an off-shoot of 'church in a kippah' groups, and the Ephraimites are gentiles who pretend they aren't practicing replacement theology.

Shalom,
yafet.

 

[yod]

But some of the most powerful and strong messianic congregations I have attended were firmly rooted in the Torah (you might call this orthodox?).

Orthopractic congregations are the ones who take rabbinal judaism as if it were biblical. Look ya'll...I'm messianic because of the error of the church...but rabbinical orthodox judaism is just as babylonian in a different way and degree. THe UMJC may have been charismatic at some point but it's not anymore! They are trying to out-jew the Orthodox which is meshugganah! The Orthodox resent it and the secular hate the orthodox. They have put jewish tradition on an equal footing with the Lord.

I'm sure that will start a fire here but whatever....

 

[Hix]

There is a difference. It seems to me by your description UMJC try to be rabbinic to try and make themselves seem as Jewish as possible. Orthodox Rabbinic Judaism follows the Talmud and their tradition which they percieve to be part of the law.

I really cant say of cource since im not sure what the UMJC are or what they represent ;;; *blushes*

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

 

[yod]

Have you ever been to a messianic congregation in Israel? It's so cool...jews who don't have to prove they are jewish to anyone.

 

[ShirChadash]

Have you ever been to a messianic congregation in Israel? It's so cool...jews who don't have to prove they are jewish to anyone.

Yod
I can't express how I long to experience such a thing. For months, until very recently, I would go every day to the Aish.com wall cam and have been considering how to swing a trip to Israel, but it just isn't doable financially for TL and me right now... so I finally had to quit letting myself long ... but the one thing that bummed me out so much about all the tours of Israel we looked into was how TOURISTY they all seem to be... meaning that *I* want to spend my time with PEOPLE not so much running all over Israel to see the places and rushing on to the next (though I *do* want to see and experience the places too, yes, but my heart is very focussed on the people of Israel and on the Messianic believers there, on Jerusalem, on going to the Wall, and on prayer and intercession and service... ). I read your other post about setting up a tour; I think TL and I would go in a heartbeat if we could swing it -- it sounds SO awesome! But alas, I think our Lord has other thoughts for us this year

 

[simchat_torah]

P4I knows of an organization where you go for very cheap... and it doesn't involve any tours but rather you do things like feed the homeless, wash Israeli army tanks, things like that... and you have the second half of your days free to do as you wish.

 

[Hix]

Ive been with Sar-el before, they have won many awards in Israel for their good work and they are actually a part of the IDF which is cool of cource.

You get to help out Israel, and of cource get the Shabbat off. Its cheap too, but you need quite a bit of recommendation, either from a recognised pro-israel group or from a Rabbi.

If you get the chance Zemirah, dont turn down the opertunity to see Eretz Yisrael and G-ds holy city Jerusalem. It really will change you forever, I know it did for me. And you have to go pray at the western wall and put a message in it

I cant say ive been in many messianic congregations in Israel. But if anyone has visited Christ Church the CMJ place ive been there, as well as Assemblies of G-d.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

 

[simchat_torah]

An important thing to keep in mind concerning Sar-El:

Although sometimes the work may seem menial, your efforts provide the additional manhours to allow soldiers, hospital and other professional staff to focus their time where their skills are needed.

 

[ShirChadash]

Looking at their website now!

 

[Charlesinflorida]

In this subject line, I was wondering what your opinions might be concerning the YAHashua folks who are becoming Messianic in practice but have this insistence on using the name of God Yah, or YAHVEH and insist on spelling of names like Yahashua instead of Yeshua. A congregation I have visited on seveal occasions wouldn't even use the word LORD (Adonai) in the lyrics of a song but insist that you must use the name.

Charles in Florida

 

[simchat_torah]

Yes, this group is often referred to as "Sacred Namers." Its very difficult to pinpoint their exact beliefs as they vary from congregation to congregation. Because of this, we only have tell-tale signs to watch out for. They also don't usually have 'sacred name' in their title, but there are things we can use to help us distinguish between 'messianic' and 'sacred namer'.

A set of things to beware of:
1) strange made up hebrew transliterations (one way to spot them from a mile away). Often they may go as far as to base salvation on the correct Hebrew transliteration. As well, often they are quite disgusting in their lack of knowledge concerning Hebrew.
2) uses a weird or previously unheard of transliteration (usually I have found that these groups have little to no knowledge of Hebrew, but proclaim otherwise)
3) claims to have 'secret knowledge', or specifically 'secre knowledge' about a name of G-d
4) often may worship images or objects (such as a torah scroll, etc)
5) has their own translation of the bible that explicitly uses the name for G-d that they think is the only right one
6) practices that resemble jewish ones, but are weird and strange (such as women must wear a tallit, etc)
7) lean heavily towards replacement theology, and subsequently make it one of their primary doctrines.
8) basing salvation on the exact pronounciation of a particular name of G-d.
9) often come off as quite "cultish"

...and other strange practices that seem "Jewish" but don't resemble Judaism at all. For some reason, most are very pentecostal. *shrugs*

These groups will often go under the banner of 'messianic' but truly aren't anywhere near this expression of faith. Don't trust their messianic disguise... they are nothing close to messianic.


I hope these pointers... or "land marks"... will help in identifying 'sacred namer' groups.

One merley needs to do a search on google for "sacred name" or "sacred namer" and you will find a plethera of information.

Shalom,
yafet.

 

[Henaynei]

Actually, I was just about to mention Sar-El.
That is who my husband and I will be returning through.
The first two times we went through Israel Project.

As Yafet said, you work for the Army during the day assembling gas masks, washing tanks, etc. but you have all evenings and Shabbat to go touring and attend Shabbat Services.

Guess what? It's free! All room and board, food and transportation are paid for. You only have to buy the plane tickets.

Go to www.sar-el.org

The application process is extensive but well worth it.
I have already communicated with the New York offices and they are more than helpful.
I greatly urge you to consider it.

I personally can't wait to go back!

If you can get the guide Zvi Ravai - he is the absolutely best AND he is a jewish believer!! Last I heard he was still with Sar-El.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Thanks Yaphet,

I knew these folks were sacred namers, but haven't been around to know what their end game is, or what ideas they might have about what is correct. Sometimes these things are only revealed by a particular group after you have invested a great deal of time with them, which I didn't want to do, if it was leading to cultish behavior or twisted doctrine. How I long for a real life community of true Messianics.

Charles In Florida