Are most Messianic Jews overdoing it?

[Henaynei]

Looking at their website now!

I thought I posted this but it is not here:

If you can try to get the Israeli guide named Zvi Ravai or Rivai - he is a most excellent and extremely knowledgable guide, personable with a very good sense of humor. He also is a Jewish believer - not exactly Messianic as we normally call it - but definately Jewish and Israeli and a believer.

Last I knew he was working with Sar-El.

 

[lucky13]

Great comments guys Thanks!

One thing I noticed is that many of you used terms I never heard of (ortopratic being one of them). I always new there were two camps of messianics but now I am starting to think that the other one is even more dramatic then I thought.

The congregation I belong to is UJMC affiliated and was to some degree tamer than others. Is there another side to the faith that is even more extreme than what I am used to?

On a tangent........

If any of you read the book "Messianic Judaism" by the non Christian author whose name I am at a loss for there seems to have been a group in Ny or Ny that really thrived. Is this group still around?

I think this group is the non - UJMC, are they the extreme wing of the movement?

 

[Henaynei]

Great comments guys Thanks!

One thing I noticed is that many of you used terms I never heard of (ortopratic being one of them). I always new there were two camps of messianics but now I am starting to think that the other one is even more dramatic then I thought.

The congregation I belong to is UJMC affiliated and was to some degree tamer than others. Is there another side to the faith that is even more extreme than what I am used to?

On a tangent........

If any of you read the book "Messianic Judaism" by the non Christian author whose name I am at a loss for there seems to have been a group in Ny or Ny that really thrived. Is this group still around?

I think this group is the non - UJMC, are they the extreme wing of the movement?

LOL the information you offer is definitely tangential -

Could you be referring to the MJAA - the quasi-alter-ego of the UMJC?? The UMJC is actually a break-off from the MJAA quite a few years ago. There was deep schism until about 10 years ago when they basically "kissed and made up."

 

[simchat_torah]

ortopratic being one of them

I never heard of it either, but to be honest, I think it was just made up today

 

[Henaynei]

[/font]

I never heard of it either, but to be honest, I think it was just made up today

From the Mistress of neowordsmything!!

The word used was "orthopratic" - as in Orthodox practice or "straight" practice according to a standard.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled programing!!

 

[lucky13]

let me ask this, is the majority of the movement MJAA?

 

[Henaynei]

MJAA thinks so, and markets itself as such - I personally think that there are now quite a few other organizations: IFMJ, OMJRA, ATC - to name a few - in some cases communities will "associate" with several "coverings" - in other cases I know of communities that refues to "associate" with either MJAA or UMJC. By "associate" I mean official connection to - not a failure or refusal to fellowship with other MJs.

 

[yod]

"weirdo" comes to mind

 

[yod]

Ooopsss

I was answering something from another page about the sacred name group

 

[JewishHeart]

Simchat Torah,

I was reading your posts on this page and see that you are much more balanced than I thought. Slicha Beomet. I do disagree with you in that I do like Pentecostal groups ( Benny Hinn, Toronto, Brownsville, Dr Michael Brown, etc.). I think that if messianic Judaism is going to be effective it needs the power as well as the format of the first kehillah.

By the way, I am a youth leader of a messianic congregation in Tel Aviv, Israel. Come and visit us sometime ! Yod is absolutely right, most believers in Israel don't have to proove they are Jewish and there is much more freedom. We love the feasts and Jewish things, but most of us would probably be labeled traditional/Spirit-led. We really don't make much of an issue about Jewish lifestyle as both seculars, traditional, and orthodox who come to Yeshua in Israel usually end up blending together in traditional messianic Spirit-led Judaism. Aretz Yisrael in Israel already makes you Jewish, so you don't fight for Jewish identity among the goyim. Anyways, we also here look for a balance between Torah-led and Spirit-led. You guys should come and visit our congregation in Israel. We are experiencing revival. Every week somebody is getting saved for the past 10 months. Our congregational leader is Ari Sorkoram and elders Asher Intrater and Eddie Santora. The congregation is Tiferet Yeshua. Come and visit and see what God is doing.

 

[simchat_torah]

let me ask this, is the majority of the movement MJAA?

In the US, yes...

Globally, no.

 

[TovahTikvah]

IYes, I would agree that many gentiles who pretend to be orthodox (aton, atom, nazarenes, etc) end up denying the Messiah, but these are usually rather "weird" sects/congregations.

Yafet, when you say atom, do you mean the Associaton of Torah Observant Messianics, which used to be represented at teshuvah.com?

 

[simchat_torah]

Yes, but they are no longer 'messianic'. They have since renounced faith in HaMoshiach.

I think that Henaynei could tell you more than I. Though I have watched them for a number of years, she had direct dealings with their leadership.

shalom,
yafet.

 

[Henaynei]

Yes, but they are no longer 'messianic'. They have since renounced faith in HaMoshiach.

I think that Henaynei could tell you more than I. Though I have watched them for a number of years, she had direct dealings with their leadership.

shalom,
yafet.

We did for a short period but that was a long time ago -- I find it very interesting what Yafet said - "Gentiles who pretend to be Orthodox" (or something to that effect) by a large margin tend to be the ones who fall to rejecting Yeshua, or rejecting him as G-d.

Essentially, non-Jews who try to "take over" the Jewishness of MJism. I am a non-Jew, a gentile, and I live a decidely Jewish Lifestyle to obey and honor G-d BUT I would never seek leadership over Jews in a synagogue or communal setting. That position belongs to the Jew, unless the Jew comes to me and asks me, only then and often even not then. When gentiles start showing their kavannah by demanding "equal treatement" - that is when congregations split and/or die to Torah growth and Jews leave. This is a Jewish movement - the non-Jews have 3,000 various denominations and churches - Why must they demand this one too??
I'm climbing off my soap box now....

 

[ShirChadash]

Ooopsss

I was answering something from another page about the sacred name group

I have been afraid of doing that, myself, LOL.

 

[yod]

We did for a short period but that was a long time ago -- I find it very interesting what Yafet said - "Gentiles who pretend to be Orthodox" (or something to that effect) by a large margin tend to be the ones who fall to rejecting Yeshua, or rejecting him as G-d.

the ones I know personally were all Separdic jews who split a large congregation in half by insisting on more and more and MORE tradition, liturgy, blessing over the forks and spoons in hebrew (and the repeated in English....and even again in Spanish on some things)

What started out as a desire for a pre-Shabbat prayer service ended up being an Orthodox synagogue within the synagogue. Their influence made the regular service go an extra 30-45 minutes with added liturgy eventually. It was already half the day.

This caused an equal yet opposite reaction from the folks who were gentiles in jew-drag and they rejected so much rabbinical influence. They went to a "word-only" kind of defense. If it wasn't found in the Word then it should be dropped.

The Orthopractic group eventually caused a huge split and 1/3 of the congregation left to start a new place. This new place went whole-hog (pardon the expression) into rabbinic studies and put as much space between themselves and the christian segment of the Body (the largest part!) until they were following traditions over faith. Well, actually they always were...but I digress.

Even though the rabbi STILL teaches a strong message of the divinity of Yeshua, the orthopractic jews in that eventually followed judaism. They denounced Yeshua and declared their hatred for christians. This is where all begins, folks. Either we love the body or we don't love the Lord.

That congregation took over...kicked out the rabbi....He since has a thriving congregation of about 80-100 but this scenario took 7 years to play out and sooooo many of my friends were hurt in the process. I blame EVERY BIT of it on the leaven of those who started down the road of contempt for christians. It wasn't the gentiles who were arrogant.

Hear what I'm not saying.....

I would never criticise anyone for study of Oral Law though I find it unnecessary for my walk to be complete. I love the Torah but see it as a document for interpretation according the culture it is given to and read by.

Otherwise you only see the letter of the Law.

I observe Shabbat and the Feasts. It was given to Israel as a special sign just like circumcision. I choose to identify with Israel....but allow the grace for those who don't understand these things.

Because of centuries of bad teaching in the church, they can't overcome the cultural barriers so easily. One day they will...but they are not MY servants to judge.....it's between Him and them.

It seems like some of you guys criticise JewishHeart's opinions because you don't think he's as Torah-Bound as he should be???

Yet that congregation is seeing the most explosive growth in the land. One a week??? Are you kidding???? Anyone want to compare fruit???

I've been hearing this about their congregation for the last year....something is going on there. Ari Sorko-Ram is an amazing pastor/teacher/disciple/man

I think he's probably teaching my young friend what's REALLY important....

 

[yod]

I would never seek leadership over Jews in a synagogue or communal setting. That position belongs to the Jew, unless the Jew comes to me and asks me,

there is a messianic congregation near Haifa where the jews in the congregation asked A PALESTINIAN ARAB to be the rabbi. He's one of the most amazingly humble people you will ever meet.

Only in Sar Shalom is this possible...

 

[simchat_torah]

It seems like some of you guys criticise JewishHeart's opinions because you don't think he's as Torah-Bound as he should be???

Not at all achi...

He came in with a very offensive and attacking attitude seeking opposition. I have never once said a single thing regarding his pesonal Torah observance, I don't even know where he stands. I have also opposed placing non-Torah based leadership over myself. This is the only thing I have had a dispute with.

Where anyone on this forum stands with their committment to carying out Torah is between them and HaShem. period.

I think you should re-evaluate my response to JH.

Shalom,
yafet

 

[yod]

Then I wasn't referring to you, Yafet.

A lot gets lost in the translation of this bulletin board medium...but it seems like there is some contempt for his liberty in some posts around here.

Peace?

 

[TovahTikvah]

Yes, but they are no longer 'messianic'. They have since renounced faith in HaMoshiach.

Yes, I know, and prior to that their theology was all over the place, going Sacred Name for a while then Nazarene. I have been personally acquainted (very closely, actually) with the director/owner/whatever of ATOM (who also had an affiliation with SANJ and the Nazarene "beit din" at one time) and his entire family for nearly twenty years. The reason why I asked is because he was named as amidst Gentiles, and he isn't a gentile. He had, after initially accepted Y'shua as HaMashiach, attended gentile Christian churches, but he is absolutely a Jew. His family is dear to me, there remains a believing remnant within it (though most have denied Y'shua now) and I pray for them daily.

But the leaven of hatred of the Gentile portion of the body of Y'shua, as Yod so fittingly labeled it, has an equal, opposite and just as dangerous correlary -- the leaven of embracing authority which does not "rightfully divide the word of Truth." The Messianic movement must be careful to tread a narrow line, not deviating off and dipping into either type of leaven, not allowing ourselves (personally) or our congregations to become infected either way. It seems to me that this is exactly where grace comes into play. It's not about whether or not a Gentile believer eats pork, it's not about whether or not Jewish believers demand Torah-observance within the synagogue and reject leadership who do not keep those standards. Grace is like, if you'll excuse the metaphor, like a modem. Grace is what enables us to get "online" and stay "online" -- within the center of the Will of HaShem, being guided by Him and knowing what to emphasize, what to hold on to, what's important and what isn't necessarily worth a "fight" (or the disintegration/split/chasm of our congregations) at any given time. And praise HaShem for it, but let's not get carried with using it as a coverall for whatever we want to try to "get away with."