Are modern Bible translations as good as the old ones? KJV versus ESV versus NKJV

[GreekOrthodox]

You argue that everything should be translated word for word but from the Septuagint, which is the EO Old Testament as we do not use the Masoretic text, ἑωσφόρος is dawn (ewo) star (phoros) but Lucifer is from Latin, not Greek or Hebrew. So once again, things are being interpreted as part of any translation.

 

[createdtoworship]

You argue that everything should be translated word for word but from the Septuagint, which is the EO Old Testament as we do not use the Masoretic text, ἑωσφόρος is dawn (ewo) star (phoros) but Lucifer is from Latin, not Greek or Hebrew. So once again, things are being interpreted as part of any translation.

Lucifer is an English word, and that was the destination on the translation, english. So I expect lots of English words in an English translation, don't you?

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Lucifer is NOT English! It's Latin Lucifer (/ˈluːsɪfər/ LEW-si-fər; "light-bringer") was a Latin name for the planet Venus as the morning star in the ancient Roman era, and is often used for mythological and religious figures associated with the planet. (Wikipedia)

 

[Concord1968]

Lucifer is NOT English! It's Latin Lucifer (/ˈluːsɪfər/ LEW-si-fər; "light-bringer") was a Latin name for the planet Venus as the morning star in the ancient Roman era, and is often used for mythological and religious figures associated with the planet. (Wikipedia)

This is correct. The King James translators imported "Lucifer" over directly from the Latin Vulgate. The English translation of the Greek is actually "Morning Star".

 

[Julian of Norwich]

What do all of you think of the KJ21 (KJV 21st Century)? It seems so right since so many have said that numerous words in the KJV are different and even sometimes opposite of what we know today, however I much prefer the "Scriptural Language" as it's what I've been reading in the KJV since I was 4. It's not that hard to understand! Anyway, the KJ21updates those words and keeps the "scriptural Language". What do you think of it tho?

 

[GreekOrthodox]

I havent read the KJ21 much but as a chanter, I appreciate the KJV translation of the Psalms and other songs. One of the challenges for Greek chanters is trying to fit the English into the Greek melodies and still retain both the meaning and the poetry. One example is a funeral hymn and the older translation reads "for consigned to the grave is he (she) with stone is he (she) to be covered". However, that phrase doesnt fit the tune. In a new version, the translator picked "He/she is taken for burial, and lies six feet under" in order to fit the Greek meter. I'll stick with the older unsingable version thank you very much!

 

[Julian of Norwich]

The KJV is beautiful, however the KJ21 keeps much of the poetic language while updating the words that are so archaic that the words either don't mean anything anymore or have a changed/opposite meaning, however for translating them into Greek song, I just don't know.

But what do the rest of you think about that change? Do you think it makes enough of a difference for you to use it?

 

[GreekOrthodox]

The Orthodox churches use a variety of translations. I have on my shelf a Jerusalem Bible, an RSV, both of which contain the Deuterocanonicals and then a Orthodox study Bible of the NT which uses NKJV. Not sure what official translation that our liturgical books use for the readings. I think it is our own translation.

 

[Julian of Norwich]

From what I've seen, it isn't in many stores and I don't think there's been much marketing boost for it. You can buy it at Amazon, but it's only available in hardcover. It is on the Bible websites I've seen and there is an app for it for the smartphone. I just stumbled upon it. (I have a hard time with most contemporary versions, as they have just plain average language not dignified language.) I've always liked the KJV-I like this even better tho', most of the time.

 

[createdtoworship]

Lucifer is NOT English! It's Latin Lucifer (/ˈluːsɪfər/ LEW-si-fər; "light-bringer") was a Latin name for the planet Venus as the morning star in the ancient Roman era, and is often used for mythological and religious figures associated with the planet. (Wikipedia)

This is correct. The King James translators imported "Lucifer" over directly from the Latin Vulgate. The English translation of the Greek is actually "Morning Star".

at least three dozen english words come directly from latin:

English Vocabulary Derived from Latin - Page 1

 

[createdtoworship]

Proverbs 16:6 "through the fear of God men depart from evil"

check out the NIV:

"through the fear of the LORD evil is avoided."

people reverence God and repent.

they don't avoid evil, they repent of it.

 

[Dr. Jack]

I hear that a lot. Always from KJVO-ers who have never actually read the Greek or the Hebrew.

I am old enough that all of my teachers graduated to glory, except one. Those men read the Greek, and of course, some the Hebrew. I could present a rather long list of men who are quite educated in the Biblical languages ... so to make such an assertion is quite ludicrous.

Yes, I'm KJ only, and I feel for good reason. After having spend decades in the ministry researching and teaching, I have become more familiar with this topic than the average bear.

The root causes of the problem cannot be stressed enough ...

1) The Alexandrian family of MSS is inferior to the Byzantine;
2) The rules of Textual Criticism were developed by men who denied both the inspiration of all Scripture, and the equal authoritativenes of all Scripture;
3) The use of Dynamic Equivalence rather than a Formal Equivalence in the translation process.

 

[Dr. Jack]

The ESV is very accurate too but I think most scholars would agree that the NASB is superior. Still they're probably the best if we're looking for best english "translation" (all bibles are equal because they're all inspired). I would have to disagree about the KJV being the most accurate (though the singular and plural you's are incredibly helpful) but again I really couldn't care. If you're reading scripture than you can choose whatever makes you feel the most comfortable.

p.s. the shady past you're referring to is KJV only propaganda since when we refer to the Alexandrian texts as one "group" it's best quite frankly on geography rather than a tradition though that being said they are roughly 80% similar but you'd expect that due to being closer to the actual original documents.

Are you saying the Alexandrian texts are roughly 80% similar to one another?

 

[createdtoworship]

I havent read the KJ21 much but as a chanter, I appreciate the KJV translation of the Psalms and other songs. One of the challenges for Greek chanters is trying to fit the English into the Greek melodies and still retain both the meaning and the poetry. One example is a funeral hymn and the older translation reads "for consigned to the grave is he (she) with stone is he (she) to be covered". However, that phrase doesnt fit the tune. In a new version, the translator picked "He/she is taken for burial, and lies six feet under" in order to fit the Greek meter. I'll stick with the older unsingable version thank you very much!

Pretty cool job, you got there. I like Gregorian chant

 

[GreekOrthodox]

I
1) The Alexandrian family of MSS is inferior to the Byzantine;
2) The rules of Textual Criticism were developed by men who denied both the inspiration of all Scripture, and the equal authoritativenes of all Scripture;
3) The use of Dynamic Equivalence rather than a Formal Equivalence in the translation process.

Morning Dr. Jack,
One question for you on #3, is how you handle archaic terms or phrases in KJV. Do you believe that there is a time for a dynamic equivalence or do you go for a footnote and further explanation? One of the examples, I am thinking of is not on a Biblical phrase but rather one of the Orthodox hymns.

In Greek, one of the phrases reads
νίκας τοῖς βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων

Literally,
victory the Emperor over barbarians
There arent any Orthodox emperors anymore and well and now everyone is a barbarian so it is typically translated as the following.

Translated for the service
granting victory to the faithful over the enemy,

How would you handle those types of cases in the KJV? One very Biblical example is the translation of unicorn in the Psalms and making sure that people dont think that there were horned horses that only virgins could ride out in the Judean desert.

 

[Knee V]

I prefer to use translations which are from the textus receptus. for the old testament, I used the English translation of the Septuagint which is closer to the Hebrew original

I use the Michael Asser translation of the Old Testament as my main go-to Old Testament. It starts with the text of the KJV and amends it where necessary to bring it into conformity with the LXX, and keeps the KJV wording where possible. It is essentially a "Septuagintized" KJV. It is available on Lulu dot com in both paper back and hard cover.

The New Testament that I use as my main go-to is a version translated at a convent (Holy Apostles Convent). It is the same language style as the KJV and is based on the Byzantine textual family. If I had had a say in that translation there are a few stylistic changes I would have made, but they're minor and I don't sweat it.

 

[Knee V]

i will buy the Orthodox Study Bible in the future that have the English translation of the Septuagint and the Textus Receptus/Byzantine/Majority Texts

Being Orthodox myself, I consider the quality of the OSB's translation of the Old Testament to only be so-so. I am not saying not to get it, and I am not saying that it cannot be useful. Just don't let the fact that it is based on the LXX get your hopes up too high.

 

[Knee V]

A parish I had previously attended used (and probably still uses) the KJ21 for their readings. I think that it is a great update of the KJV!

The KJV is beautiful, however the KJ21 keeps much of the poetic language while updating the words that are so archaic that the words either don't mean anything anymore or have a changed/opposite meaning, however for translating them into Greek song, I just don't know.

But what do the rest of you think about that change? Do you think it makes enough of a difference for you to use it?

 

[createdtoworship]

A parish I had previously attended used (and probably still uses) the KJ21 for their readings. I think that it is a great update of the KJV!

it looks like the KJ21 retains the "bible english" while newer translations use what is called "secular english." 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) - Version Information - BibleGateway.com

 

[friendl]

Sorry I'm new to this thread - and a newest follower of the faith - so excuse me, but seeing that the NIV Bible is the most popular in English language, should that be the one we read that is most accurate?