This Thread has been a learning experience for me....and I'm still learning....Nice....to see no fighting....smile
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GAL.3:24-25 = 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.I have to disagree....because the Gentiles were not chosen to keep the law...which by default makes it their tutor as well....all are included under sin
GAL.3:24-25 = 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Problem is, the Law was never the tutor that brought Gentiles to Christ because Gentiles did not live under the Law. Only Jews kept the Law and lived under the Law. The Law was the tutor that brought Jews to Christ for salvation, not Gentiles. Once saved from hell or coming to faith, the Jewish Christians are no longer under the Law for salvation.
....... Old Testament figures like Moses, Elijah and beggar Lazarus were saved from hell while they were still under the Law - LUKE.16:19-31(Deut.15:11), MATTHEW.17:3 & 27:52, 1PETER.3:19 & 4:6.
....... Jewish Christians being no longer under a tutor/Law for salvation does not mean that the Law has been destroyed or abolished or discarded or ignored or done away with because salvation is for the afterlife. Until salvation comes(= resurrected/raptured), in this life on earth, they still have to live under the Law. Hence, 1CORINTHIANS.5: says ...
Immorality Must Be Judged
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”
Hence, it is quite easy for the non-Law-tutored Gentile Christians to be led astray into lawlessness, sins/evilness, back-sliding and departing from the faith.
P S - Even US Christians have to live under US Law, on top of having to live under God's Law.
I believe the Gentiles knew they were without the law.....GAL.3:24-25 = 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
It is a fact that Gentiles do not keep the Law and do not live under the Law. Most Gentiles are not aware of some of their sins or of being sinners or of being under sin.(ROMANS.7:7 = On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law.)
....... Gentiles are usually brought to Christ for salvation not by the tutor/Law, eg by the miracles of healing or exorcism, by seeking a spiritual cure for their life problems/mental problems/drug addiction, by promises of prosperity, by peer pressure, etc.
You said.God's WORD teaches..
COLOSIANS 2:6 [6], As you have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk you in him
We have received him by faith right? We walk in him by BELIEVING and FOLLOWING his WORD by Faith. We need to be born again not to sin and to have a new heart to LOVE (1 John 3:9) Whatever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith (1 John 5:4). Those who ABIDE in Christ by FAITH do not brake God's LAW and those who sin [break God's LAW] do not know him (1 John 3:6). It is not God's will that after we come to him that we sin [break God's Commandments] but if we do we have an advocate with the father (1 John 2:1)
Hope this helps brother
Are you saying that you do not sin?Those who ABIDE in Christ by FAITH do not brake God's LAW and those who sin [break God's LAW] do not know him (1 John 3:6).
When I wrote: thought that.. but to establish the Law may mean if it has done its purpose which was meant to bring us to Christ. Has it brought you to Christ? Did it meet up to its purpose?
What law does it establish WHEN BROUGHT TO faith in Christ, but the Law of Love...
I use to think the law of Moses....
Not true.I believe the Gentiles knew they were without the law.....
And therefore by that knowledge the law still was a tutor for them....all were accounted under sin those with and those who were without
Not being under the law does not make one lawless. We have been set free from a yoke of bondage to the law. The Apostle Peter said it best in Acts chapter fifteen.Hi Steve, sorry God's Word disagrees with you and does not teach lawlessness. Good luck trying to say that to God come judgment day. Those who continue in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN do not enter into God's KINGDOM. ....
Wrong, wrong, and wrong.…
Seems you do not understand the covenants and what the OLD and NEW COVENANT are. Or what is the difference between God's eternal law that gives us a knowledge of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS (Romans 3:20; 7:7; James 2:10-11; Psalms 119:172).
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2 Corinthians 3:6-11 is talking about the change of covenants (OLD TO NEW) and the ministration from the letter to the Spirit of LOVE. It is not saying God's 10 commandments are abolished the are fulfilled and established under the NEW COVENANT through LOVE (Romans 3:31; Romans 13:8-10).
The 10 commandments in the OLD COVENANT was written on two tables of stone (Deuteronomy 4:13) but in the NEW COVENANT they are written on the heart through LOVE by walking in the Spirit (Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 3:31; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; James 2:18-20). …
Not being under the law does not make one lawless. We have been set free from a yoke of bondage to the law. The Apostle Peter said it best in Acts chapter fifteen.
Acts 15:10-11
Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
The Apostle Paul explained how we have been set free from the prison of the law.
Galatians 3:23-25
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
Not really Steve, what is wrong? Just saying wrong, wrong wrong does not make the scriptures sent to you magically dissappear.Wrong, wrong, and wrong
This scripture (God's word) is comparing two ministries. 1) The new covenant, and 2) The Ten Commandments (which was engraved in letters on stone)
The Ten Commandments are said to be the transitory ministry that brought death, which has no glory now. The ministry that brought condemnation, because the letter of the law kills.
Is the SABBATH a DAY? Good question JBL, which day is it?
As you can see the Sabbath is a day.
It’s the seventh day.
It’s a day that that some esteem over other days while neglecting to love their neighbor.
This is context that Paul is teaching in Romans 14.
Now that you see that the Sabbath is a day you have the choice to do good and love people on just that day or you can do good on everyday.
Which is better?
Loving God and loving His people one day a week or everyday of the week?
any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-11
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. Romans 14:5
JLB
If you disagree prove that this chapter is talking about the SEVENTH DAY Sabbath. It is not even the topic of conversation within the chapter which is food and fasting connected to days that men esteem over other days.
It simply refers to the Jew. It is the Jew who is subject to the Law of Moses. This is well-established in the Old Testament and it is clear that Paul believes this is as well. As we will see now, you draw an incorrect conclusion about "under the Law" in Romans 3GALATIANS 3:23-25 VERSE BY VERSE
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[23], But before faith came, we were kept UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
v23, says before faith has come it says we were kept "UNDER THE LAW", shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE "UNDER THE LAW"?
[/URL]ROMANS 3:19-20
By ignoring context - as is your common pattern - you conclude, erroneously that all are under the Law. But the Romans 3 context context shows that, as always, it is the Jew and the Jew only whose sin is revealed by the Law:[19], Now we know that WHATSOEVER THINGS THE LAW SAYS, IT SAYS TO THEM WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW: THAT EVERY MOUTH MAY BE STOPPED AND ALL THE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD. [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.
I just did.
You have closed your eyes to the context that comes from Romans 13.
Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-11
It’s about loving God and loving our neighbor.
Tell us where in the New Testament does Jesus command or teach the Church to keep the Sabbath?
The scripture says Jesus broke the Sabbath (according to Moses) and declared He and His Father are working on the Sabbath.
17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. John 5:17-18
JLB
Thanks for sharing JBL, I see you still have provided no scripture to show that Romans 14 is talking about God's 4th Commandment does it concern you that you are reading into the scriptures things that are not there?
It simply refers to the Jew. It is the Jew who is subject to the Law of Moses. This is well-established in the Old Testament and it is clear that Paul believes this is as well. As we will see now, you draw an incorrect conclusion about "under the Law" in Romans 3 By ignoring context - as is your common pattern - you conclude, erroneously that all are under the Law. But the Romans 3 context context shows that, as always, it is the Jew and the Jew only whose sin is revealed by the Law:
Nice try.
You are ignoring the scriptures from the context.
Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
The Sabbath is a day. Lol.
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. Romans 15:5
You will have to prove that the Sabbath is not a day.
You will also have to prove Paul is not dealing with all the law of Moses, which he calls out in the previous chapter and also deals with Sabbath days and food laws in chapter 14
The onus is on you to prove the Sabbath is not a day.
Paul is teaching about Love.
You are condemning people to hell for not esteeming the Seventh Day over the other days of the week when Paul nor Jesus did no such thing.
JLB
Everyday in our world that one cast their cares upon Christ, is the meaning of the shadow of the Sabbath. Why because we enter His rest. We have Eternal life....it is a everyday thing that we do to cast our cares upon Christ....When you do that you cease from trying to fix things yourself.Is the SABBATH a DAY? Good question JBL, which day is it?
EXODUS 20:8-11
[8], Remember the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> Because God made it Holy for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day)
[9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
[10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY>
[11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT.
The origin of God's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH commandment is from the creation week of Genesis
GENESIS 2:1-3
[1], Thus the heavens and the earth WERE FINISHED, and all the host of them.
[2], And on the SEVENTH DAY GOD ENDED HIS WORK which he had made; and HE RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY from all his work which he had made.
[3], And GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY, AND SANCTIFIED IT: BECAUSE HE HAD RESTED FROM ALL HIS WORK WHICH GOD HAD CREATED AND MADE.
DEUTERONOMY 5:12 [12], Keep the SABBATH DAY [SEVENTH DAY] to sanctify it, as the LORD your God has commanded you.
NEHEMIAH 13:17 [17], Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said to them, What evil thing is this that you do, and profane the SABBATH DAY [SEVENTH DAY]?
JEREMIAH 17:21-22 [21], Thus said the LORD; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the SABBATH DAY [SEVENTH DAY], nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem; [22] Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do you any work, but hallow you the SABBATH DAY [SEVENTH DAY], as I commanded your fathers.
yep everyone in the OLD COVENANT knew God's Sabbath was a day. What about the NEW?
MATTHEW 12:8 [8] For the Son of man is Lord even of the SABBATH DAY [SEVENTH DAY]
Yep Jesus says that the Sabbath is a day so that about does it for me. What about you?
MATTHEW 12:11 [11], And he said to them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the SABBATH DAY [SEVENTH DAY], will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
MATTHEW 24:20 [20] But pray you that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the SABBATH DAY [SEVENTH DAY]
Yep Jesus is still calling the Sabbath a day even after his death.
ACT 13:44 And the next SABBATH DAY [SEVENTH DAY] came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
ACT 15:21 For Moses of old time has in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every SABBATH DAY [SEVENTH DAY].
Yep seems like Jesus, Paul and all the Apostles knew that the Sabbath day was the SEVENTH DAY of the WEEK .
Now we know that God's Sabbath is the SEVENTH DAY that God set apart as a HOLY DAY and it is God's 4th Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) and there is SEVEN OTHER DAYS that make up a week.
Now please show the scriptures to your claim that ROMANS 14 is talking about the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH?
Where in Romans 14 does it talk about God's 4th Commandment Sabbath? If you are quoting Romans 14 were does it say in this chapter that it is talking about God's commandments or where does it talk about God's Sabbath? Are you reading something into scripture here that it does not say?
Romans 14 is talking about eating and fasting connected to days that some men esteem over others. It is not talking about what God esteems or God's commandments. Romans 14 is not talking about God's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH Commandment and there is not one scripture in the chapter that supports what you are trying to read into the scriptures.
If you disagree prove that this chapter is talking about the SEVENTH DAY Sabbath. It is not even the topic of conversation within the chapter which is food and fasting connected to days that men esteem over other days.
The Context of ROMANS 13:8-12 is that LOVE is summed up in the EXPRESSION of OBEDIENCE to God's LAW (10 Commandments) v8;10 Paul in Romans 13:8-12 is focusing on the 2nd great commandment of LOVE to our neigbore v10 and says that the 2nd great commandment of LOVE do our neighbore is fulfilled in OBEDIENCE to God's LAW (10 Commandments) v9 concluding that LOVE to our neighbore is summed up in OBEDIENCE/fulfilling or doing God's Commandments [Exodus 20:12-17 or commandments 5-10 the last 6 of the 10 Commandments).
Now Paul's focus here is on the 2nd great commandment of LOVE to our neighbore. There are two great Commandments from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 that Jesus talks about in Matthew 22:36-40 and says that LOVE sums up all of God's LAW in these two great commandments of LOVE. Now your not suggesting are you JBL that because the first 4 Commandments are which sum up our duty of LOVE to GOD are not being discussed in Romans 13:8-12 which is talking about our duty of LOVE to our neughbore that we are now free to break the first 4 Commandments of the 10 Commandments that show our duty of LOVE to God are you?
Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.
Hope this is helpful