Are Christians to Obey the Law of God/Jesus?

[BobRyan]

Paul who in Romans 7 tells us that the Law actually keeps us from bearing fruit for the Lord because the Law Scripture tells us is not of faith and the just shall live by faith. Law is do this and live fail at any point and you break the entire Law. If the Law only prevented us from living for the Lord that would be awful beyond measure. But Paul tells us to be married to the Law prevents you and me from being wed as Christ's Bride to our proper and only Husband.

In Romans 7 Paul says the Law of God is "holy, just and good" 7:12
In Romans 2 "it is not the hearers of the law that are just before God but the DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED.. according to my Gospel" Rom 2:13-16
1 John 3:4 "SIN Is transgression of the LAW" even for NT saints
The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

 

[Vicky gould]

Paul warns against Christians imagining that law breaking will get the born-again Christian into heaven.. in 1 Cor 6
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

lots of "commandment breaking" getting noticed by Paul there

Which goes even more so for "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7



Paul defines his term "under the Law" to have the context (in most cases) as Romans 3 "under the condemnation of the law"

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

But he does not generalize that to mean that even for Christians it is not still "sin" to commit adultery or take God's name in vain (as we probably all know).

In Rom 8:4-10 Paul says it is only the lost who "do not and indeed CAN not submit to the LAW of God"

Where that law according to Paul includes the one where the 5th commandment "is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 --- the TEN.

So Paul writes "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19

And John reminds us "this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

So then no affect on whether we go to heaven , it just affects our sense of communion along the way?


Paul warns against Christians imagining that law breaking will get the born-again Christian into heaven.. in 1 Cor 6
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Which goes even more so for "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7

Sin will always be sin until the Lord removes it forever. tell me how the following teaching of Paul effects your claim. The written Law can only condemn. It caused Adan and Eve to flee from the Good Shepherd who came seeking the lost. Satan caused Man to reject the Tree of Life for The Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil, the Law. With that Law they saw their uncovered sin and fled. The Good Shepherd took an unidentified, for us at this time, Innocent slaying it in the place of the Guilty. With that Adam and Eve "passed over from death to life."

Here is Paul teaching in Galatians 2:

how do we understand Paul teaching here?

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. Ga. 2

one of the big errors of our days is that the covenants as given by the Lord are just a series that dovetail one into the other. The covenant from Sinai can no more be mixed together than you could combine Hagar and Sarah or the two pictures of the what have become the Way of Cain for the apostate portion of Israel and Law of Grace. We are all called Jew and Gentile to be from the one symbolic woman Sarah and the Covenant of the Good News of the Promised Son. Paul who was a Pharisee of pharisees completely conversant with the Law was used by the Lord to take the teaching about Law or Grace to the all men. Paul who in Romans 7 tells us that the Law actually keeps us from bearing fruit for the Lord because the Law Scripture tells us is not of faith and the just shall live by faith. Law is do this and live fail at any point and you break the entire Law. If the Law only prevented us from living for the Lord that would be awful beyond measure. But Paul tells us to be married to the Law prevents you and me from being wed as Christ's Bride to our proper and only Husband.

 

[BobRyan]

Sin will always be sin until the Lord removes it forever. .

True.

1 John 2:1 "these things I write that you sin not"
1 John 3:4-5 "sin IS the transgression of the LAW"
Rom 8:4-10 it is only the lost who "do not submit to God's Law and indeed CAN not" as compared to the saints.
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

 

[Soyeong]

There is a new law in town, pardner:

Romans 13
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

Civil authorities are not servants of God, so Paul was speaking about submitting to religious authorities who had the authority to administer justice.

 

[Vicky gould]

Civil authorities are not servants of God, so Paul was speaking about submitting to religious authorities who had the authority to administer justice.

Everyone is a servant of God willingly or unwillingly. The Lord holds the kings heart in his hand and turns it which ever way He chooses. No one rises to the throne that the Lord has not allowed it. The Lord calls us not to be rebels against the established order, Joseph in Egypt, Daniel in Babylon served utterly sinful rulers and rose to the heights of power as they served the Lord by serving His appointed ruler. I believe Scripture is quite clear rebelling against those in power is to oppose His Will for us. Does this mean they or any of His people are to do what is wrong not in the least Daniel was willing to die to not perform false worship. Romans 13.

I am interested in whether you think the present day church has affected changes in there move into politics or is the leaven wreaking havoc in the church? Just curious thanks

 

[Soyeong]

Everyone is a servant of God willingly or unwillingly. The Lord holds the kings heart in his hand and turns it which ever way He chooses. No one rises to the throne that the Lord has not allowed it. The Lord calls us not to be rebels against the established order, Joseph in Egypt, Daniel in Babylon served utterly sinful rulers and rose to the heights of power as they served the Lord by serving His appointed ruler. I believe Scripture is quite clear rebelling against those in power is to oppose His Will for us. Does this mean they or any of His people are to do what is wrong not in the least Daniel was willing to die to not perform false worship.

If everyone is counted as a servant of God regardless of whether or not they willing seek to serve God, then it robs the meaning of what someone is communicating by saying that they are a servant of God. While God can certainly use for good and what someone intended for harm, I don't thinking it is meaningful to refer to those who oppose God as being His servants. While it is true that God raises up secular rulers, in this chapter Paul was speaking about submitting to religious rulers with the context of how to behave as a community of believers. While it is true that Daniel served a sinful ruler, he stayed in submission to God, so the post that I was responding to using Romans 13 to say that there is a new law in town that we should be submitting to is not correct.

I am interested in whether you think the present day church has affected changes in there move into politics or is the leaven wreaking havoc in the church? Just curious thanks

I'm going to recommend this podcast to you:

The Prophetic Table

The whole podcast is excellent and is teaching through the Bible with a much needed perspective. However, this episode in particular imagines a scenario where various prophets from the Bible are sitting around a table and discussing what should be done with Babylon or with Persia. The Bible presents many voices that see it from differing perspectives. Some say to need to fight, some say we prepare to be here for the long haul, some say we need to restore our relationship with God, some say we need to return and restore, and some say we need to stay in a position to influence. The Bible presents an ongoing dialogue that we have a tension to wrestle with, not as a codified list of things that we need to do.

 

[Vicky gould]

If everyone is counted as a servant of God regardless of whether or not they willing seek to serve God, then it robs the meaning of what someone is communicating by saying that they are a servant of God. While God can certainly use for good and what someone intended for harm, I don't thinking it is meaningful to refer to those who oppose God as being His servants. While it is true that God raises up secular rulers, in this chapter Paul was speaking about submitting to religious rulers with the context of how to behave as a community of believers. While it is true that Daniel served a sinful ruler, he stayed in submission to God, so the post that I was responding to using Romans 13 to say that there is a new law in town that we should be submitting to is not correct.



I'm going to recommend this podcast to you:

The Prophetic Table

The whole podcast is excellent and is teaching through the Bible with a much needed perspective. However, this episode in particular imagines a scenario where various prophets from the Bible are sitting around a table and discussing what should be done with Babylon or with Persia. The Bible presents many voices that see it from differing perspectives. Some say to need to fight, some say we prepare to be here for the long haul, some say we need to restore our relationship with God, some say we need to return and restore, and some say we need to stay in a position to influence. The Bible presents an ongoing dialogue that we have a tension to wrestle with, not as a codified list of things that we need to do.

Hi, I have not tried the podcast I am older not for computer literate where and how do I find the podcast. The biggest problem as you know is Romans 13:4. But the same thing is taught in the call for us to be subject to our slave masters not if they are good but for the Glory it brings to God. David while being pursued by Absalom who sought to kill his father and take his throne was asked if they should go and kill him were told not to by David because it might be an action that was contrary to the Lord’s Will.

Couple quick other takes on the matter if you would indulge a little further. In 1 Samuel 8 Israel, in an apostate condition tells Samuel they want a human king instead of God to rule them. Samuel takes the message and the Lord tells Samuel they have rejected the Lord not Samuel. The Lord gives Samuel an unsurprisingly accurate prophecy of what human government would be like. Ours certainly fits the description. But that is not our concern because God tells us in Daniel 4 I think verse 17 that He, the Lord, raises up the Worst of men” to rule. How can that be? The Lord’s will in all this is to teach men the insanity of not turning to Him and instead trusting in men. If the Lord raises who He wants, sparrow doesn’t fall OT king lifted up, to rule. IMHO we need to pretty sure that God’s will is not for this ruler to do what they do to accomplish His purpose. Do we then do the things that are evil? Daniel always did two things in Babylon he always spoke the truth to Nebby and also served and loved him so that he probably was not converted but to declare to the entire world that Daniel’s God is the one, true God.

Please let me know how to find the podcast, thanks. Great subject of your post. God bless

 

[Soyeong]

Hi, I have not tried the podcast I am older not for computer literate where and how do I find the podcast. The biggest problem as you know is Romans 13:4. But the same thing is taught in the call for us to be subject to our slave masters not if they are good but for the Glory it brings to God. David while being pursued by Absalom who sought to kill his father and take his throne was asked if they should go and kill him were told not to by David because it might be an action that was contrary to the Lord’s Will.

Couple quick other takes on the matter if you would indulge a little further. In 1 Samuel 8 Israel, in an apostate condition tells Samuel they want a human king instead of God to rule them. Samuel takes the message and the Lord tells Samuel they have rejected the Lord not Samuel. The Lord gives Samuel an unsurprisingly accurate prophecy of what human government would be like. Ours certainly fits the description. But that is not our concern because God tells us in Daniel 4 I think verse 17 that He, the Lord, raises up the Worst of men” to rule. How can that be? The Lord’s will in all this is to teach men the insanity of not turning to Him and instead trusting in men. If the Lord raises who He wants, sparrow doesn’t fall OT king lifted up, to rule. IMHO we need to pretty sure that God’s will is not for this ruler to do what they do to accomplish His purpose. Do we then do the things that are evil? Daniel always did two things in Babylon he always spoke the truth to Nebby and also served and loved him so that he probably was not converted but to declare to the entire world that Daniel’s God is the one, true God.

Please let me know how to find the podcast, thanks. Great subject of your post. God bless

Hello, I'll respond more fully tomorrow, but simply clicking on the link should take you there:

The Prophetic Table

Alternatively, you could click on this link and go down to episode 71:

BEMA Session 2: Prophets & Writings — BEMA Discipleship

 

[Vicky gould]

Hello, I'll respond more fully tomorrow, but simply clicking on the link should take you there:

The Prophetic Table

Alternatively, you could click on this link and go down to episode 71:

BEMA Session 2: Prophets & Writings — BEMA Discipleship

Wow I guess I am old old school just click and you’re there I thought it was gotten through Roku somehow. This is very funny, the realization that I Old old school hit me funny. I was alright at just thinking I was old now I have to readjust my thinking. A whole new world awaits me.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

eve disobeyed GOD as did adam

John 14:15 [Full Chapter]
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

[Vicky gould]

eve disobeyed GOD as did adam

John 14:15 [Full Chapter]
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

My commandments are fulfilled by love God with all your might and to love all men.

 

[Andrewn]

Civil authorities are not servants of God, so Paul was speaking about submitting to religious authorities who had the authority to administer justice.

Romans 13 is about submission to civil authorities and this is how it has always been understood. The meaning is parallel to 1Pe 2:13-14:

13 Submit yourselves to every human authority for the Lord’s sake, whether it be to the king, as supreme, 14 or to governors, as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and to praise those who do right.

 

[Bob S]

eve disobeyed GOD as did adam

John 14:15 [Full Chapter]
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Keep my commandments, great verse if one would only put it in its proper perspective and not try to make it point to the laws of the Sinai covenant. Let's see what happens when it is put in the proper perspective.

9 ‘As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

Jesus' Father's commands were laid down at Sinai to the new nation of Israel. Jesus lived on this Earth subject to those commands. Satan tried to break His will and become a sinner just as he did to Adam and Eve. Jesus was faithful to the end fulfilling the commands of the Father and being God had every right to give mankind new commands. Jesus commands are not full of rituals like those found in the Sinai covenant. The new covenant Jesus ratified with His own blood is all about love. Vicki Gould's comment could not have said better. Jesus commands for us can be accomplished every minute of our lives while we are going about our daily activities. Thank you Jesus. You are all we need.

We know we belong to the truth if we believe and love others as He loves us. 1Jn3:19-24

 

[Original Happy Camper]

just as I have kept my Father’s commands

please list the father's commands

 

[BobRyan]

"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" - Ex 20:6, John 14:!5
"This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3
"What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Rom 8:4-10 the lost "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed can they"
Rom 3:31 "do we abolish the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

Rom 2: "13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified."... on the day when "according to my gospel God WILL judge" Rom 2:16

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus' Father's commands were laid down at Sinai to the new nation of Israel.

Heb 8:6-12 says that at Sinai it is Jesus speaking.

Bible details.

 

[Andrewn]

Heb 8:6-12 says that at Sinai it is Jesus speaking.

Interesting. Heb 8:6-13 actually says the opposite:

6 But now, Jesus has obtained a ministry that is as much superior as the covenant that he mediates is better, because it has been established on the basis of better promises. 7 Indeed, if that first covenant were without fault, there would have been no reason to look for a second. 8 But because God found fault with the people, he said: Look, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 13 When God said “new,” he made the first covenant obsolete, and something that is obsolete and growing old is going to disappear.

Elsewhere, the NT says the Old Covenant was given by angels:

Act 7:53 who have received the law by the disposition of angels, but have not kept it.”

Gal 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to whom the promise was made. And it was ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator.

Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was true, and every sin and disobedience received a just recompense,

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus' Father's commands were laid down at Sinai to the new nation of Israel.

Heb 8:6-12 says that at Sinai it is Jesus speaking.

Bible details.

Interesting. Heb 8:6-13 actually says the opposite:

hmmm... let's see if that is true

4 For if He (Jesus) were on earth, He (Jesus) would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He (Jesus) said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He (Jesus) has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He (Jesus) is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
A New Covenant

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He (Jesus) says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I (Jesus) will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I (Jesus) made with their fathers in the day when I (Jesus) took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My (Jesus') covenant, and I (Jesus) disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I (Jesus) will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I (Jesus) will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I (Jesus) will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I (Jesus) will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He (Jesus) says, “A new covenant,” He (Jesus) has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

================= and so that adds light to Jer 31:31-33

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord (Jesus), when I (Jesus) will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I (Jesus) made with their fathers in the day that I (Jesus) took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I (Jesus) was a husband to them, says the Lord (Jesus). 33 But this is the covenant that I (Jesus) will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I (Jesus) will put My (Jesus') law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I (Jesus) will be their God, and they shall be My (Jesus') people.

============ YHWH speaks at Sinai
Ex 20
Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2 “I am the LORD (YHWH) your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD (YHWH) your God, am a jealous God,

9 Then they said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die.” 20 Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin.” 21 So the people stood at a distance, while Moses approached the thick cloud where God was.

22 Then the LORD (YHWH) said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven.

 

[Andrewn]

6 But now He (Jesus) has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He (Jesus) is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
A New Covenant

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He (Jesus) says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I (Jesus) will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

13 In that He (Jesus) says, “A new covenant,” He (Jesus) has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Your own quotations show that the new covenant is better and established on better promises.

And that the first covenant is faulty, obsolete, and ready to vanish away.

What more do you need to be convinced?

 

[BobRyan]

Your own quotations show that the new covenant is better and established on better promises.

And that the first covenant is faulty, obsolete, and ready to vanish away.
What more do you need to be convinced?

The old straw man that says that those who choose not to take God's name in vain and choose to keep the 4th commandment, must be those who are arguing that we should be under the old covenant -- that straw man has never been able to stand on two feet.

As even the pro-sunday Bible scholars admit - the moral law of God defines what sin is .. in both the Old Covenant and the New. It is the"Covenant" that is different - not the moral law of God that defines what sin is and that is written on the heart. The moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers, defining what sin is 1 Johnn 3:4 -- exists in both OT and NT and it is part of both the OC and the NC.