Apostasy

[TheLostCoin]

The first point is why I will not go to Greek churches anymore unless it is the sole Orthodox church around. In the USA they tend to treat the church more like a social club with a priest attached to it. If today's Greeks are indicative of their ancestors than it is simply miraculous that Sts. Cyril and Methodius even became missionaries in the first place.

I think it's more of a case that Greek immigrants have been around here longer, more integrated, and thus more contaminated by an antithetical culture.

My dad is a Protestant/Catholic engineer who travelled across Europe on various business trips, and he always points out Greece as his favorite location because people were the most hospitable and loving. He even bought an icon of Christ from Greece for my Evangelical minister grandfather, who hung it on his wall till his death.

 

[SalemsConcordance]

I've been trying to take to heart many talks of Fr Kosmas of Australia, which say "go slowly" and measuring any progress in terms of years, not months. Even when I hear it, or read about Saints who struggled with a passion for 20 years, I still think I should have it the next day in my pride. Then, I fall into despair as if I'm holy and should never fall for sin - its all stupid tricks!

Otherwise, I'm at risk of the burning out very quickly. In my pride, I did a big Lenten fast, and ended up going a bit mental, being angry and snapping at work, family, and passing out at the Pascha service. Of what was I offering God that whole time? Its just easier to care about oils then wondering why my heart is so bitter, etc.

New-comers and going slow, reading too many deep books, doing a little bit daily being better then huge "exercises" of fasts or feats, etc.

"God gives grace, in the beginning – otherwise people wouldn’t even be able to come to Church and pray.” Then, if you have felt that grace, we incorrectly think we should have that all the time, instead of struggling.

Fr Kosmas said in a video which just punched me in the gut, "sitting at home all day reading the Philokalia and pretending like they are Christians."

 

[Lukaris]

This may seem like a contradiction since I take my cue from St. John Climacus’ Ladder of Divine Ascent which I have never read except a few excerpts. St. John told a lay inquirer what laity should do. It is the 21st excerpt from step 1:

21. Some people living carelessly in the world have asked me: ‘We have wives and are beset with social cares, and how can we lead the solitary life?’ I replied to them: ‘Do all the good you can; do not speak evil of anyone; do not steal from anyone; do not lie to anyone; do not be arrogant towards anyone; do not hate any one; be sure you go to church; be compassionate to the needy; do not offend anyone; do not wreck another man’s domestic happiness;3 and be content with what your own wives can give you. If you behave in this way you will not be far from the Kingdom of Heaven

http://www.prudencetrue.com/images/TheLadderofDivineAscent.pdf

I have taken this statement to heart by always recommending anyone to have the New Testament ( & Old but with more caution), Creed, prayer book, & Didache as our primary guides that are what the saint is telling us. This, I believe, is where our foundation & ark of salvation stand ( yes, it is all about Jesus).


Surely I am not discouraging anyone’s spiritual growth but we all vary. Read the Philokalia, the councils etc. if you choose
but we must not lose hold of the synopsis of our faith.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The first point is why I will not go to Greek churches anymore unless it is the sole Orthodox church around. In the USA they tend to treat the church more like a social club with a priest attached to it. If today's Greeks are indicative of their ancestors than it is simply miraculous that Sts. Cyril and Methodius even became missionaries in the first place.

I think it depends on where you are. there are a lot of OCA parishes in NEPA that are Russian bingo clubs.

 

[rusmeister]

I think it depends on where you are. there are a lot of OCA parishes in NEPA that are Russian bingo clubs.

What is NEPA?

 

[Phronema]

What is NEPA?

I believe NEPA is Northeastern Pennsylvania.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What is NEPA?

haha, sorry. Northeast Pennsylvania.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

I grew up in an older immigrant German church and it's not surprising that church may be the last area of safety for immigrants. Many in my congregation were older folks who had experienced discrimination and had their names changed to something less German during anti-German sentiment of WW1.

The city’s attitude is reflected in the Cincinnati Post [28 September 1918]:
“All Huns look alike. They are savage, brutal, contemptible and evil-looking and they are all numbskulls and flat-heads.”

The Cincinnati library removed all German books: “This library has been used to further a reptilian and insidious propaganda by enemies of the United States,” said board trustee James Albert Green. “German literature published during the last 40 years is tainted with the ideas and ideals which American boys now are giving their lives to combat.”

The German newspapers were shut down and German was forbidden to be taught especially in German Catholic and Lutheran schools.

The only place where German could be safely spoken was in church. Reaching out in Christ's name was dangerous as outsiders might report them.

After a lynching of a German-American in a suburb of St. Louis, the mob was acquitted and the newspaper reported, "The community is well convinced he was disloyal. The city does not miss him. The lesson of his death has had a wholesome effect on the Germanists of Collinsville and the rest of the nation."

Woodrow Wilson stated that in regards to "German-Americans", "Any man who carries a hyphen about with him, carries a dagger that he is ready to plunge into the vitals of this Republic when he gets ready."

Even back in the 1980s, I went with a group of friends to a gaming convention. All of our last names are extremely German, Wagner, Schnettler, Fink, Boercherding, Baeuerlin. The guy signing us in wondered why all of us "Nazis" were there.

So I understand why some ethnic churches are very insular.

 

[buzuxi02]

Most orthodox immigrants did not come here to convert anyone, nor to even assimilate to the natives. For them their parishes are simply embassy churches. Here on a temporary basis to serve their community for as long as it exists.

 

[ArmyMatt]

and also, to be fair, many came to the West just to ensure Orthodoxy's survival from the threat of communism.

 

[E.C.]

I think it's more of a case that Greek immigrants have been around here longer, more integrated, and thus more contaminated by an antithetical culture.

It's been both Greeks fresh off the boat and 3rd generation or more Greek-Americans. Seeing as the Ecumenical Patriarch has told his bishops that "you're not here for missionary work" it clearly shows that the Greeks, or at least the Greek Archdiocese, have zero interest in missionary work.

I think it depends on where you are. there are a lot of OCA parishes in NEPA that are Russian bingo clubs.

That I believe, but I've not been in that area of PA yet. The closest I came was a parish outside of Philadelphia. The priest and his family are old family friends and I've heard him complain quite a bit about that. He's trying to break that mentality.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That I believe, but I've not been in that area of PA yet. The closest I came was a parish outside of Philadelphia. The priest and his family are old family friends and I've heard him complain quite a bit about that. He's trying to break that mentality.

yeah, it can be bad in NEPA.

 

[LaSorcia]

not submitting to what the Church teaches. they go too far to left or right, and want the Church to conform to what they think it should be.

It's really easy to blame the convert instead of the leaders of the church who fail to take converts under their wings. One of the things I've found extremely frustrating about the EO church is the tendency to tell everyone to ask their priest. I have no idea what kind of parish everyone else has, but asking my priest about everything is not feasible. I actually came pretty darn close to apostasy since conversion, and tried to make an appointment with my priest to discuss it, but he failed to respond to my emails and then cancelled several appointments we had made. Thank the Lord for his mercy, which sustained me through my severe tribulations when all human beings I reached out to let me down. Don't be so quick to blame the apostate. Instead, look inside and see how one can be a better witness and help to those in spiritual need.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It's really easy to blame the convert instead of the leaders of the church who fail to take converts under their wings. One of the things I've found extremely frustrating about the EO church is the tendency to tell everyone to ask their priest. I have no idea what kind of parish everyone else has, but asking my priest about everything is not feasible. I actually came pretty darn close to apostasy since conversion, and tried to make an appointment with my priest to discuss it, but he failed to respond to my emails and then cancelled several appointments we had made. Thank the Lord for his mercy, which sustained me through my severe tribulations when all human beings I reached out to let me down. Don't be so quick to blame the apostate. Instead, look inside and see how one can be a better witness and help to those in spiritual need.

while bad clergy will be judged if/when they scandalized their flock to lead them away, the act of apostasy rests on the apostate.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

One of the things I've found extremely frustrating about the EO church is the tendency to tell everyone to ask their priest. I have no idea what kind of parish everyone else has, but asking my priest about everything is not feasible.

Why we direct people to talk to their priest is because we laity don't know or in some cases, want to know your personal situation. For example, every fasting season we see the usual fasting questions. We can tell you the general guidelines, but if you are newly illumined, your priest may want you to ease into the fast. It is not all about food or checking ingredients. It is also about prayer life, spiritually beneficial reading, and other things.

For example, I'm diabetic and doing the full blown Lenten fast is unhealthy for me, as it is carb heavy. So in talking with my priest, I have a different diet and only go fully Lenten during the first week of the fast and during Holy Week. As a result, the reading of the Paschal homily has a huge impact on me as I tear up when Father reads, "for the Lord, who is jealous of his honor, will accept the last even as the first; He gives rest unto him who comes at the eleventh hour, even as unto him who has wrought from the first hour." I'm that eleventh hour guy!

That's why we direct you to your parish priest.

 

[Light of the East]

another good point

Not just an Orthodox problem. Protestantism preaches in a way that makes you think that the USA is the Kingdom of God. Then they send their military out to conquer the world for Jaaaayzuz.

 

[Light of the East]

I think it depends on where you are. there are a lot of OCA parishes in NEPA that are Russian bingo clubs.

Bingo??? Is Roman Catholic!!! Is outrage!!!

 

[ArmyMatt]

Bingo??? Is Roman Catholic!!! Is outrage!!!

is big outrage!

 

[Phronema]

It's really easy to blame the convert instead of the leaders of the church who fail to take converts under their wings. One of the things I've found extremely frustrating about the EO church is the tendency to tell everyone to ask their priest. I have no idea what kind of parish everyone else has, but asking my priest about everything is not feasible. I actually came pretty darn close to apostasy since conversion, and tried to make an appointment with my priest to discuss it, but he failed to respond to my emails and then cancelled several appointments we had made. Thank the Lord for his mercy, which sustained me through my severe tribulations when all human beings I reached out to let me down. Don't be so quick to blame the apostate. Instead, look inside and see how one can be a better witness and help to those in spiritual need.

That's a rough situation to be in, and I'm sorry to hear it.

I'd say that some questions can be directed toward your Godmother in lieu of a priest depending on the question of course. In addition another Orthodox priest may be able to assist if there's one close by, or a monastery. These may not be helpful suggestions due to location, or proximity to another Orthodox church, or monastery of course. I do hope that's at least somewhat helpful.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Not just an Orthodox problem. Protestantism preaches in a way that makes you think that the USA is the Kingdom of God. Then they send their military out to conquer the world for Jaaaayzuz.

oh, I know. I have watched John Hagee.