Apostasy

[East of Eden]

The point that was made, and to which I responded with the "character in post 51" was that an awful lot of people have been driven away from Christianity by such folks. Sadly, my children are among that group, and I take full responsibility for subjecting them to the kind of preaching that tends to drive people away. Slobbering, Bible-thumping, screaming polyesther suits yelling about how mad God is at you because you didn't give the preacher his tithe least week. Warnings of the coming of the Anti-Christ and a bunch of drivel about how sinful it is to go to movies, have long hair on men and short hair on women.

Children don't respond well to that.

I have to wonder how different things might have turned out if our family had been blessed to be part of the Orthodox parish in Harrisburg. If they had heard about the God who is "the lover of mankind" instead of the angry God who is looking for every fault you have so that He can spank you. I suppose that some folks think that all that hellfire and brimstone preaching is a good way to scare people into the Kingdom.

Well, Jesus did speak quite a lot on hell. Finding the balance is the tricky part, IMHO the churches today focus mostly on love, leaving out God's justice and holiness, so we have a lot of Christians who live little different than the world.

 

[Light of the East]

Well, Jesus did speak quite a lot on hell. Finding the balance is the tricky part, IMHO the church focus mostly on love, leaving out God's justice and holiness, so we have a lot of Christians who live little different than the world.

There is a difference between warning people with love and making it a constant horror show every Sunday.

 

[East of Eden]

There is a difference between warning people with love and making it a constant horror show every Sunday.

That is just as much an imbalance as speaking solely about love and nothing about God's justice and holiness.

Children often respond badly to correction and discipline, the Bible talks about the foolishness of youth. Some who blame church X or Y for why they left Christianity were just looking for an excuse, as my mom used to say, one excuse is as good as another. The Apostles were often massive screw ups, why should today's church leadership be perfect? There was only one of those......

 

[Light of the East]

That is just as much an imbalance as speaking solely about love and nothing about God's justice and holiness.

Agreed. I guess you have never been in the kinds of fundamentalist churches I went to. Yes, balance is important.. We didn't find it, and that is my fault.

 

[rusmeister]

The “worship words” part made me think of Omega Glory. Not sure if you get my connection

View attachment 300490

That was precisely the connection I had in mind.

 

[rusmeister]

The point that was made, and to which I responded with the "character in post 51" was that an awful lot of people have been driven away from Christianity by such folks. Sadly, my children are among that group, and I take full responsibility for subjecting them to the kind of preaching that tends to drive people away. Slobbering, Bible-thumping, screaming polyesther suits yelling about how mad God is at you because you didn't give the preacher his tithe least week. Warnings of the coming of the Anti-Christ and a bunch of drivel about how sinful it is to go to movies, have long hair on men and short hair on women.

Children don't respond well to that.

I have to wonder how different things might have turned out if our family had been blessed to be part of the Orthodox parish in Harrisburg. If they had heard about the God who is "the lover of mankind" instead of the angry God who is looking for every fault you have so that He can spank you. I suppose that some folks think that all that hellfire and brimstone preaching is a good way to scare people into the Kingdom.

I think you would catch more sinners with the honey of God's love as I have heard it in Orthodoxy.

Just my .02.

There are two different things here to distinguish between. I’ve already tried to express it as actual education in the classical sense vs a false modern education that the Prussian system now adopted by all major countries in the world uses to indoctrinate (in the bad sense, being given that all teaching is “indoctrination”) people into specific world views without teaching them to truly understand their ancestors and history, in which Latin and Greek are generally not valued, nor is philosophy, let alone theology (the academic side of it, such as it is), where false impressions of history are indirectly taught, leaving in the minds of the graduates an impression that the world began in chaos, and has gradually improved, or progressed, and that we are the most “advanced” and intelligent people in history, where the invisible philosophical current underpinning everything is one of agnostic relativism and pluralism. This kind of graduate is why we have this desperate mess in the world, the “educated” fool, who has truly been fooled. When you think it through, you realize that that includes most of us, who, if we are lucky, have at least partly crawled out of that false mindset. And not everyone who comes into the Church from the world is so lucky. Some still value, if not openly worship, that modern education, and have faith in its “experts” to the point of thinking it equal to and even capable of correcting Holy Tradition.

You rightly defend actual education. We are attacking and challenging the mass pseudo-education that predominates in the world today. What the modern schools produce is NOT that good thing you defend by condemning low-brow village evangelical protestantism. So we’re talking apples and oranges here, really.

 

[rusmeister]

Yup, they are extensively educated in a false world view.

I'll add that the electorate that brought Hitler to power was the most educated in the world at the time.

And they were the ones who originated that Prussian system imported into the US in the 1840’s in Massachusetts by Horace Mann and Edward Everett, who wanted to use it to recondition the children of Catholics and Jews and make good little Protestants who valued their new country more than their parents' religions. Only the newly wealthy magnates saw that they could use it instead to kill Yankee enterpreneurialism and make a nation of compliant consumers, and so established foundations to fund and take control of the nascent education system, including teacher preparation, a process largely complete by 1930. (Note the time when the MacGuffy reader was effectively replaced by Dick and Jane, making Dr Suess look like a genius by comparison, though it was still a massive fall from what kids used to learn to read early on.)

But yes, in Germany the system had long been developed, and had had a head start of well over half a century to get its people to accept what they later accepted.

 

[East of Eden]

Agreed. I guess you have never been in the kinds of fundamentalist churches I went to. Yes, balance is important.. We didn't find it, and that is my fault.

I went to a Baptist college that was ridiculously legalistic at the time, it was almost like a prison. Fortunately it didn't harm my faith, I figured it was man's problem, not God's.

FWIW, that college is a wonderful place now, Cornerstone University

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Dr. Seuss has been canceled for malpractice!

And they were the ones who originated that Prussian system imported into the US in the 1840’s in Massachusetts by Horace Mann and Edward Everett, who wanted to use it to recondition the children of Catholics and Jews and make good little Protestants who valued their new country more than their parents religions. Only the newly wealthy magnates saw that they could use it instead to kill Yankee enterpreneurialism and make a nation of compliant consumers, and so established foundations to fund and take control of the nascent education system, including teacher preparation, a process largely complete by 1930. (Note the time when the MacGuffy reader was effectively replaced by Dick and Jane, making Dr Suess look like a genius by comparison, though it was still a massive fall from what kids used to learn to read early on.)

But yes, in Germany the system had long been developed, and had had a head start of well over half a century to get its people to accept what they later accepted.

 

[buzuxi02]

I have to wonder how different things might have turned out if our family had been blessed to be part of the Orthodox parish in Harrisburg. If they had heard about the God who is "the lover of mankind" instead of the angry God who is looking for every fault you have so that He can spank you. I suppose that some folks think that all that hellfire and brimstone preaching is a good way to scare people into the Kingdom.

Makes no difference. Christianity is hemoraging members, doesn't matter the sect or the country. Orthodoxy included, in fact we are the worse remember that christian region called Anatolia? Today's it's 99.2% Muslim. Greece was 98% Orthodox in 1980, today's lucky if its 75%.
Every approach is failing. Eternal life might sell but no one's buying. We are living in a post christian society and we are the last of the mohicans. We are dinosaurs and there is no longer any guarantee our kids will follow in Christ's footsteps. Jesus a virgin mother, moral values and personal holiness is simply not appealing compared to the worldly life of secular humanism, partying and getting laid.

 

[East of Eden]

Makes no difference. Christianity is hemoraging members, doesn't matter the sect or the country.

True mainly in the dying West, but then the US is only 5% of the world's population. Completely untrue many other places. In 1900 Africa had 9,000,000 Christians, in 2000 it had 380,000,000, and some predict it will have 633,000,000 later this decade. At the time of the Communist revolution, China had 1,000,000 Christians, today it has 100,000,000, more than the number of Communist Party members.
Similar in South Korea and many other places. See the book "The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity" by Prof. Philip Jenkins. Just as the center of Christianity once shifted from the Middle East to Europe, it is today shifting from the West to the Two-Thirds world. As an example, there are more Anglicans in Nigeria alone than in the US, UK, and Canada combined.

Orthodoxy included, in fact we are the worse remember that christian region called Anatolia? Today's it's 99.2% Muslim. Greece was 98% Orthodox in 1980, today's lucky if its 75%.

Every approach is failing. Eternal life might sell but no one's buying.

Again, very untrue in much of the world.

We are living in a post christian society

It really is simply a return to paganism, complete with child sacrifice through abortion and rampant sexual immorality/deviancy.

and we are the last of the mohicans. We are dinosaurs and there is no longer any guarantee our kids will follow in Christ's footsteps.

Was there ever? Augustine for a long time didn't follow in his mother's Christian footsteps.

Jesus a virgin mother, moral values and personal holiness is simply not appealing compared to the worldly life of secular humanism, partying and getting laid.

Not much different than it's always been, Jesus compared His Second Coming to the times of Noah and Sodom, when most were unprepared. The question is, what do WE do with what we know about the Truth?

Where Christianity is in decline such as the West, as long as churches are faithfully preaching the Gospel is it really the church's fault? Jesus was nailed to a cross, the Old Testament Prophets and New Testament Apostles were terribly persecuted for their faithfulness.

 

[buzuxi02]

Where Christianity is in decline such as the West, as long as churches are faithfully preaching the Gospel is it really the church's fault? Jesus was nailed to a cross, the Old Testament Prophets and New Testament Apostles were terribly persecuted for their faithfulness.

While I disagree with how high some of those numbers are in Asia and Africa including the quality and depth of Christianity in these countries, I agree with your statement above.
The poster I was responding to shouldn't beat himself up if only this or that happened. Or if he preached this part of the gospel or emphasized that part. Overall it makes no difference the west will continue to fall away.

 

[East of Eden]

While I disagree with how high some of those numbers are in Asia and Africa including the quality and depth of Christianity in these countries,

You could make the same argument in respect to many 'Christians' in the West.

I agree with your statement above.
The poster I was responding to shouldn't beat himself up if only this or that happened. Or if he preached this part of the gospel or emphasized that part. Overall it makes no difference the west will continue to fall away.

Remember ancient Israel was in a constant state of apostasy and faithfulness, with the faithful parts being the minority. We need another Great Awakening.

 

[JamesTheJust]

***ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN ANSWERS ONLY***

For those who've been around the Church for some time...what do you think/what have you observed as the biggest cause(s) of apostasy as pertaining to new converts? Why do they fall away?
I'm having this discussion with some fellow parishioners right now, because we've heard of it but have not yet seen it in action.

Poor and brief catechism is the primary culprit, in my opinion. What comes easy goes just as easily. Enhanced rigor is beneficial for increasing investment.

 

[JamesTheJust]

[QUOTE="rusmeister, post: 75970937, member: 133419" Also, in Islam, it's a lot easier to live by their standard of what makes a good Muslim (though in the West, converts at least eschew the idea of jihad and pretend it's not core in Islamic teaching).

Making our own Fallen desires and passions OK is seriously not OK when it comes to others looking at us and wondering whether there is anything really different about us. Somebody pays a price, even if we are clueless about it.[/QUOTE]

This is very interesting. Why do you think that personal holiness is easier as a Muslim?

 

[East of Eden]

My apologies for butting in this thread, I missed that is for Orthodox answers.

 

[OrthodoxWanderer]

My apologies for butting in this thread, I missed that is for Orthodox answers.

No worries, you're fine

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Why did I leave Orthodoxy? Because nobody seems to agree on what "real" Orthodoxy is. Everybody kept telling me the Gospel is a lot more complicated than loving people, which is fine, except nobody seems to agree on what that love looks like. This was manifested in the way people treated me as I became sicker and sicker with schizophrenia. Some people were great. Some people were downright awful. This proved to be true of people whether they were Orthodox or not, so I saw no reason to stick around and subject myself to fasting and hours of prayers that didn't seem to be helping anything -- quite the opposite, in fact, when you spend half your time telling God how awful and unworthy you are. Yeah, I'm well aware that I'm human trash.

I'm not Orthodox, of course (and neither am I Catholic, ignore the signature and the avatar), but I used to frequent this place daily as an Orthodox Christian, so some of you might be interested in my answer.

 

[rusmeister]

Why did I leave Orthodoxy? Because nobody seems to agree on what "real" Orthodoxy is. Everybody kept telling me the Gospel is a lot more complicated than loving people, which is fine, except nobody seems to agree on what that love looks like. This was manifested in the way people treated me as I became sicker and sicker with schizophrenia. Some people were great. Some people were downright awful. This proved to be true of people whether they were Orthodox or not, so I saw no reason to stick around and subject myself to fasting and hours of prayers that didn't seem to be helping anything -- quite the opposite, in fact, when you spend half your time telling God how awful and unworthy you are. Yeah, I'm well aware that I'm human trash.

I'm not Orthodox, of course (and neither am I Catholic, ignore the signature and the avatar), but I used to frequent this place daily as an Orthodox Christian, so some of you might be interested in my answer.

I really relate. I would have to challenge the easy temptation to see oneself as trash, if only because God sees us as more than that. But it is true in the Orthodox Church, as well as the Catholic Church, that people in the Church deny Christian teaching, pick and choose what they like, and very often approve or justify their own besetting sins. I can’t say anything about schizophrenia, except that such things are in the soul as well as the body. But I can say that there is nowhere else to go. The Orthodox Church is the last stand, and it is chock-full of messed-up people (including myself), who will hurt as well as help you.
“Where can we go, Lord? You have the words of eternal life.”

In “Finding Nemo”, the fish “Dorothy” is messed-up in having no memory retention. But she says “Keep on swimmin’, keep on swimmin’” to keep herself going. I would not give up on that, or on the sacraments, though the priest who administers them may be a first-class hypocrite (like me!), so “Keep on repentin’, keep on repentin’” and avail yourself of the sacraments. That is right, even if everyone you meet is confused.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

I really relate. I would have to challenge the easy temptation to see oneself as trash, if only because God sees us as more than that. But it is true in the Orthodox Church, as well as the Catholic Church, that people in the Church deny Christian teaching, pick and choose what they like, and very often approve or justify their own besetting sins. I can’t say anything about schizophrenia, except that such things are in the soul as well as the body. But I can say that there is nowhere else to go. The Orthodox Church is the last stand, and it is chock-full of messed-up people (including myself), who will hurt as well as help you.
“Where can we go, Lord? You have the words of eternal life.”

In “Finding Nemo”, the fish “Dorothy” is messed-up in having no memory retention. But she says “Keep on swimmin’, keep on swimmin’” to keep herself going. I would not give up on that, or on the sacraments, though the priest who administers them may be a first-class hypocrite (like me!), so “Keep on repentin’, keep on repentin’” and avail yourself of the sacraments. That is right, even if everyone you meet is confused.

Jesus isn't the problem. It's his followers who act nothing like Him. And I can't help but wonder if Jesus is even there when the people he promised to help don't act any different than people in the rest of the world, minus people like St. Seraphim of Sarov or Elder Ephraim (the hatred for whom I will never understand) or Bl. Seraphim of Platina (ditto). Maybe a few exceptions prove everything, though? That's very difficult to accept.