Anyone here who are Protestant converts what were you?

[SnowyMacie]

primacy was never moved because Old Rome at the time never lost status. the only one who gained was Constantinople, which miffed Alexandria. however, since no bishop has ever had authority over his brother bishops, it was never a theological issue. it is right and valid because it helps maintain good order.

I may have described it poorly. The way the Orthodox preist described it to me is that the Bishop of Rome was considered to be the first amoung equals because that was the capital of the Roman Empire, when the captial moved to Constantinople (may have still been Byzatium at the time) the Bishop there became the first among equals. Rome, however, I believe he said, never acknowledged this.

When I said "we" I didn't necessarily mean to include myself but I know there're many folks in this forum who know the issues and history and evidence a lot better than me. I know because it was an issue for me when I was an inquirer and, apart from other reading, back in the day I paid attention to some debate threads between Orthodox and Catholics, and long story short, the Orthodox convinced me and the other guys didn't. So if you want to chat about it here or in a separate thread, feel free.

I was taught in high school a blantatly wrong idea: Eastern Orthodoxy broke off of Rome (no I didn't attend Catholic school). When I took Western Civ in college, it was just "They disagreed about X, Y, and Z". After I started studying Church history and talking to Catholics and Orthodox, it seemed like "he said, she said", and kind of left me in a place of not knowing who's version of history correct when it comes to the Great Schism.

Have you read the letters of St Cyprian of Carthage?
He considered the bishop of Rome to be on equal footing with his own bishopric, gave advice to the bishop of Rome, and was even referred to by the clergy at Rome as "pope" at a time when they were without a bishop.
His letters definitely show much respect to the bishop of Rome because at that time, being crowned bishop of Rome meant martyrdom within a short period of time. Thus those who accepted the role were exemplary Christians in every way, unfortunately it did not continue to be the case after Rome ceased to be a persecuted Church.

Interesting, I may have to read those letters.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I may have described it poorly. The way the Orthodox preist described it to me is that the Bishop of Rome was considered to be the first amoung equals because that was the capital of the Roman Empire, when the captial moved to Constantinople (may have still been Byzatium at the time) the Bishop there became the first among equals. Rome, however, I believe he said, never acknowledged this.

no, Rome was always first among equals until she left the Church. Constantinople was granted second as the new capital, with all the perogatives of Old Rome, but Old Rome was still first honored

 

[LizaMarie]

Thanks for all your replies! Keep them coming- I'm interested in your journeys.

 

[AMM]

Born and raised an LCMS Lutheran. Thinking about converting, but still in the early stages of that thought process. I've always gone to high-church, conservative, confessional churches, and love the liturgy. I haven't ever been to an Orthodox liturgy (I'm hoping to go to a vespers at some point this summer), and have only had a one brief conversation with a Orthodox priest. One of my close friends is Greek Orthodox though, and she and I talk a lot about religion. Her dad was raised Lutheran, actually.

I'm not sure that I will convert -- I don't think I can compromise on Luther's Small Catechism (but I'm not sure that the Orthodox would reject it as heretical so that may not be an obstacle. All Catholics that I have talked to only have one or two minor quibbles with wording), especially since I took vows at my confirmation that I would "endure all, even death, rather than depart from this Faith," and I don't think I could break that vow in good conscience.

Additionally, I love the music of the Lutheran church (I love Byzantine chanting, too, but man oh man are some western and lutheran hymns just incredibly beautiful) and would hate to lose friendships from my current congregation, or even worse, my family. But, “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword."

Also, I have for quite some time desired to become a Lutheran pastor. I have plans to attend seminary immediately after college graduation, and I feel as though conversion would remove me of a vocation. I know I could become a priest, but I would hesitate to pursue such a venture immediately after conversion, since "He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit."

That being said, I'm pretty much convinced on the practice of infant communion as well as rejecting the filioque (I heard someone say -- perhaps it was Metr. Kallistos? I can't recall -- that it's primarily linguistic. I.e., the Latin, English, etc. use of the filioque is not heretical, whereas in Greek, it is heretical to say "καὶ τοῦ Υἱοῦ" with "ἐκπορεύομαι"). Regardless of it's theological truth, I absolutely believe that it should not be included in the Creed, simply because we should honor the original Symbol and not modify it.

Anyway, this has turned into a much longer post than I anticipated. This has stressed me out a lot recently, as I try to wrestle with all of these considerations. I should talk to my current pastor and see if he can help me, but I'm afraid of what he'll say. Pray for me, please. Guidance and spiritual advice is welcomed.

 

[ArmyMatt]

only thing is not to worry about friends and family, I still have a lot from my Protestant days, and have gained much more.

as for the Filioque, it is heretical because of how the West explained it, which is the heresy of Semisabellianism.

 

[AMM]

only thing is not to worry about friends and family, I still have a lot from my Protestant days, and have gained much more.

Thank you.

as for the Filioque, it is heretical because of how the West explained it, which is the heresy of Semisabellianism.

How so? I've heard that before about semisabellianism but I don't see the connection between those two. Sabellianism is the same as modalism, right?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you.



How so? I've heard that before about semisabellianism but I don't see the connection between those two. Sabellianism is the same as modalism, right?

because the Western understanding is the Spirit is from both the Father and the Son as from one principle. in other words, both the Father and the Son are the Divine origin of the Spirit. this blurs the distinction between the Father and the Son, which is Semisabellianism.

 

[seashale76]

And did you consider Roman Catholism first?
Anyway Protestant converts what made you convert to EO?

I was raised in the Assemblies of God. I got married in and was a member of a Southern Baptist church. We then went to one of those Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement inspired Christian Church Mega-church thingies for a while. Then I was a deist and we didn't go anywhere for a long time.

I have Roman Catholic family. When I started looking at Christianity again because of an interest in Church history, the same issues that came up for me earlier when I first learned about the RCC didn't cease to exist or suddenly make sense. It was only Orthodoxy that seemed to click and make the most sense out of everything.

 

[Unlearner]

And did you consider Roman Catholism first? There was a thread awhile ago featuring converts to Catholicism who later became Orthodox but I can't find it. It was an interesting thread.
Anyway Protestant converts what made you convert to EO? Especially since in North America(excepting maybe Alaska) there are so few EO churches around to experience.
Did you have trouble finding a place to worship.
I still plan on attending a church about 80 miles away, a Greek Orthodox church.
I can't wait but I work nights and weekends and hubby ain't feeling it so he's in no hurry so I'll have to plan a time. Winter's over so traveling is better now for a few months at least LOL here in the North.
Hubby did say if there was a parish closer he would like to attend but he doesn't like the idea of a long distance church since we were so heavily involved in the one were in when our kids were young. Although we're getting older so not as involved but would like to be.

LizaMarie,

I was chrismated earlier this year and am now at a Greek Orthodox parish. I was previously a Continuing Anglican (and before that Episcopalian). I occasionally considered Catholicism, but couldn't ever make the jump because there are things about Catholicism that I just couldn't swallow such as the Papacy, Immaculate Conception, and Purgatory. I was very Anglo-Catholic in a lot of ways and prayed for the departed, sought the intercession of the saints, had high view of the sacraments, etc.

To keep this very, very short. Orthodoxy was something I know existed intellectually, but just wasn't on my radar as a viable option. It wasn't until I got to know a local Orthodox priest that it became "real" to me. Looking back, once it became real for me, it was inevitable that I would convert. Orthodoxy is everything I was aspiring for as a traditional Anglican and so much more!

As for the practicalities of converting, I live in San Antonio and there are a handful of Orthodox parishes in town.

 

[LizaMarie]

Born and raised an LCMS Lutheran. Thinking about converting, but still in the early stages of that thought process. I've always gone to high-church, conservative, confessional churches, and love the liturgy. I haven't ever been to an Orthodox liturgy (I'm hoping to go to a vespers at some point this summer), and have only had a one brief conversation with a Orthodox priest. One of my close friends is Greek Orthodox though, and she and I talk a lot about religion. Her dad was raised Lutheran, actually.

I'm not sure that I will convert -- I don't think I can compromise on Luther's Small Catechism (but I'm not sure that the Orthodox would reject it as heretical so that may not be an obstacle. All Catholics that I have talked to only have one or two minor quibbles with wording), especially since I took vows at my confirmation that I would "endure all, even death, rather than depart from this Faith," and I don't think I could break that vow in good conscience.

Additionally, I love the music of the Lutheran church (I love Byzantine chanting, too, but man oh man are some western and lutheran hymns just incredibly beautiful) and would hate to lose friendships from my current congregation, or even worse, my family. But, “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword."

Also, I have for quite some time desired to become a Lutheran pastor. I have plans to attend seminary immediately after college graduation, and I feel as though conversion would remove me of a vocation. I know I could become a priest, but I would hesitate to pursue such a venture immediately after conversion, since "He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit."

That being said, I'm pretty much convinced on the practice of infant communion as well as rejecting the filioque (I heard someone say -- perhaps it was Metr. Kallistos? I can't recall -- that it's primarily linguistic. I.e., the Latin, English, etc. use of the filioque is not heretical, whereas in Greek, it is heretical to say "καὶ τοῦ Υἱοῦ" with "ἐκπορεύομαι"). Regardless of it's theological truth, I absolutely believe that it should not be included in the Creed, simply because we should honor the original Symbol and not modify it.

Anyway, this has turned into a much longer post than I anticipated. This has stressed me out a lot recently, as I try to wrestle with all of these considerations. I should talk to my current pastor and see if he can help me, but I'm afraid of what he'll say. Pray for me, please. Guidance and spiritual advice is welcomed.

This is so close to where I am! Although it's my son who wants to enter the Lutheran(WELS) ministry not me. I took those vows, too, but I saw them as not abandoning the true Christian faith, not solely Lutheranism. I am planning as soon as I can to attend a service in a beautiful Greek Othordox church about 80 miles away from me, and also for a long while my husband and I were looking at possibly converting to the RC. The reasons behind this are very long, but Apostolic Succession and sacred Tradition played a part in it for me and my dh. Also we got very involved, and still are, in the pro-life movement and The RC is front and center in that. Downside: the annulment process. My dh was married before, and I was willing to go through the process until I learned that we would need to find a canon lawyer, dig up witnesses from 40 odd years ago, contact the ex wife, ect. Kind of like a dash of cold water in the face. Got me looking at a few other things and coming to the conclusion that there are troubling cases of legalism on the RC side. However I haven't ruled out that we would go through that. Oh and they charge for it! Although Pope Francis has even said that should not happen.
In fact even Pope Francis has said that the Orthodox way of handling prior marriages is so much better, I have read several articles on that. But I don't want to make my not wanting to go through a Catholic Annulment the only reason for choosing Orthodoxy, or even staying in Lutheranism. I want to belong to the Church that was founded by Christ, the true Apostolic Church. I have never really been a protestant, to be honest. I always believed that Lutheranism was a reform movement that was necessary to reform the Church but Luther got excommunicated. But the Lutheranism of today is not what it was then in many cases. so for me lots of reading, study, and prayer. I feel like a denominational orphan.

 

[LizaMarie]

LizaMarie,

I was chrismated earlier this year and am now at a Greek Orthodox parish. I was previously a Continuing Anglican (and before that Episcopalian). I occasionally considered Catholicism, but couldn't ever make the jump because there are things about Catholicism that I just couldn't swallow such as the Papacy, Immaculate Conception, and Purgatory. I was very Anglo-Catholic in a lot of ways and prayed for the departed, sought the intercession of the saints, had high view of the sacraments, etc.

To keep this very, very short. Orthodoxy was something I know existed intellectually, but just wasn't on my radar as a viable option. It wasn't until I got to know a local Orthodox priest that it became "real" to me. Looking back, once it became real for me, it was inevitable that I would convert. Orthodoxy is everything I was aspiring for as a traditional Anglican and so much more!

As for the practicalities of converting, I live in San Antonio and there are a handful of Orthodox parishes in town.

I, too have been praying the Rosary for a number of years(none of my Lutheran friends know this but my immediate family does) and also have no problem with the communion of saints, and Mary. Actually I have found that the Orthodox for me have the most balanced view of Mary, while on the one hand the Protestants completely ignore her, and I have always felt that way, The RC does have a bit of exaggerated devotion to her in a way. But I find nothing wrong in honoring Mary as why wouldn't the Lord honor his mother, and the woman who gave birth to Him? Also, I have always believed in ever Virgin, and the fact that Mary never had any other children. This is obvious to me in the fact that Jesus gave her to the disciple JOhn on the cross. (Joseph was likely dead at that point) Had Mary had any other living children they would have been obligated to take her in and care for her. Mary is the Mother of God settled in the first seven Ecumenical councils.
I briefly did consider Anglicanism but The Episcopal church in the U.S. was so left leaning even when I was considering it back about 1990. And conservative Anglican churches are even rarer here than EO churches.
Plus if I was going to remain Protestant I prefer Lutheranism over Anglicanism for many reasons.

 

[AMM]

This is so close to where I am! Although it's my son who wants to enter the Lutheran(WELS) ministry not me. I took those vows, too, but I saw them as not abandoning the true Christian faith, not solely Lutheranism. I am planning as soon as I can to attend a service in a beautiful Greek Othordox church about 80 miles away from me, and also for a long while my husband and I were looking at possibly converting to the RC. The reasons behind this are very long, but Apostolic Succession and sacred Tradition played a part in it for me and my dh. Also we got very involved, and still are, in the pro-life movement and The RC is front and center in that. Downside: the annulment process. My dh was married before, and I was willing to go through the process until I learned that we would need to find a canon lawyer, dig up witnesses from 40 odd years ago, contact the ex wife, ect. Kind of like a dash of cold water in the face. Got me looking at a few other things and coming to the conclusion that there are troubling cases of legalism on the RC side. However I haven't ruled out that we would go through that.
Even Pope Francis, though, has said that the Orthodox way of handling that is so much better. But I don't want to make my not wanting to go through a Catholic Annulment the only reason fro choosing Orthodoxy, or even staying in Lutheranism. I want the Church that was founded by Christ, the true Apostolic Church.

Interesting that we're going through the same process! A few brief thoughts:
1. I do think Apostolic Succession is a hugely significant thing... but based on this, I'd insist that we still have it: “Why The Apostolic Succession Debate Matters,” by the Rev. Heath R. Curtis
2. Confirmation vows: I've thought through those lines as well. That it's the true Christian faith we vowed to follow, not specifically Lutheranism, but wasn't there a line in it about "as expressed by the Evangelical Lutheran Church and Small Catechism"? Not sure how WELS does things, but I believe we have something along those lines in the LSB (maroon hymnal).
3. Tradition: that's a big one for me, but not the largest issue. I think for me it's the combination of filioque and infant communion that raise the largest issues.
4. Lutheranism in America has a lot of problems... but I think the proper response to that is to stay Lutheran (if Lutheranism teaches the true Catholic, Orthodox, and Apostolic faith, at least!) and attempt to help my neighbor by improving the state of Lutheranism for future generations, not jumping ship because Orthodoxy looks prettier [Not that that alone isn't an extremely tempting, albeit selfish, reason!]

I'll be interested to see where your path leads you! Maybe we'll end up the same, or perhaps our paths will diverge...

 

[AMM]

I, too have been praying the Rosary for a number of years(none of my Lutheran friends know this but my immediate family does) and also have no problem with the communion of saints, and Mary. Actually I have found that the Orthodox for me have the most balanced view of Mary, while on the one hand the Protestants completely ignore her, and I have always felt that way, The RC does have a bit of exaggerated devotion to her in a way. But I find nothing wrong in honoring Mary as why wouldn't the Lord honor his mother, and the woman who gave birth to Him? Also, I have always believed in ever Virgin, and the fact that Mary never had any other children. This is obvious to me in the fact that Jesus gave her to the disciple JOhn on the cross. (Joseph was likely dead at that point) Had Mary had any other living children they would have been obligated to take her in and care for her. Mary is the Mother of God settled in the first seven Ecumenical councils.

Ah yes, invocation of the saints is another big factor for me... I'm not really sure why we would reject asking the with-Christ saints to pray when we do not object to asking the in-the-flesh saints to pray for us. I've tried to get a straight answer, but to no avail. And I'm with you on the Mariology -- I believe in Semper Virgo, honoring Mary as my Mother and a type of the Church, etc. That would be no issue for me to accept. Although I do have some concerns about the prayers that are along the lines of "Holy Mary, save us!" and so on.

 

[LizaMarie]

Interesting that we're going through the same process! A few brief thoughts:
1. I do think Apostolic Succession is a hugely significant thing... but based on this, I'd insist that we still have it: “Why The Apostolic Succession Debate Matters,” by the Rev. Heath R. Curtis
2. Confirmation vows: I've thought through those lines as well. That it's the true Christian faith we vowed to follow, not specifically Lutheranism, but wasn't there a line in it about "as expressed by the Evangelical Lutheran Church and Small Catechism"? Not sure how WELS does things, but I believe we have something along those lines in the LSB (maroon hymnal).
3. Tradition: that's a big one for me, but not the largest issue. I think for me it's the combination of filioque and infant communion that raise the largest issues.
4. Lutheranism in America has a lot of problems... but I think the proper response to that is to stay Lutheran (if Lutheranism teaches the true Catholic, Orthodox, and Apostolic faith, at least!) and attempt to help my neighbor by improving the state of Lutheranism for future generations, not jumping ship because Orthodoxy looks prettier [Not that that alone isn't an extremely tempting, albeit selfish, reason!]

I'll be interested to see where your path leads you! Maybe we'll end up the same, or perhaps our paths will diverge...

No I believe you are right about No. 2 in the WELS, actually I was confirmed LCMS in...1970!!! My oldest son has graduated college, he and his young brother have attended this same(WELS) church for all their lives, and now he is thinking of the ministry. Was involved in Campus Crusade during his college years but wants to be a Lutheran minister as he believes in the sacraments and believes modern day evangelicalism has lost it's reverence for God in worship.
My husband was a former Baptist, and when we married we settled on the WELS church in town as the ELCA was too liberal, and he was becoming discouraged with the Baptist church.
Re number 1 I will have to read through the article.

 

[jeffinjapan]

And did you consider Roman Catholism first? There was a thread awhile ago featuring converts to Catholicism who later became Orthodox but I can't find it. It was an interesting thread.
Anyway Protestant converts what made you convert to EO? Especially since in North America(excepting maybe Alaska) there are so few EO churches around to experience.
Did you have trouble finding a place to worship.
I still plan on attending a church about 80 miles away, a Greek Orthodox church.
I can't wait but I work nights and weekends and hubby ain't feeling it so he's in no hurry so I'll have to plan a time. Winter's over so traveling is better now for a few months at least LOL here in the North.
Hubby did say if there was a parish closer he would like to attend but he doesn't like the idea of a long distance church since we were so heavily involved in the one were in when our kids were young. Although we're getting older so not as involved but would like to be.

Grew up in the Southern Baptist world and in my 30s, I converted to Roman Catholicism. About 15 or so years later I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy.

 

[Anhelyna]

Welcome to TAW jeffinjapan

Good to see you have made your way here

 

[ArmyMatt]

welcome, jeff!

 

[LizaMarie]

Welcome Jeff in Japan! Would you care to elaborate why you converted to Orthodoxy from the RC?

 

[mothcorrupteth]

Not converted but definitely convinced of the general teachings. Before I was 13 or so, my parents took me to a Southern Baptist church, followed by a Wesleyan church until I graduated from high school. I continued going Wesleyan until by senior year of college, which a run-in with some radical faith healers made me long for something more rational. So I got into Calvinism and specifically Presbyterianism, and over time I drifted more into the Puritan/Covenanter variety.

But I think something that messed me up starting in junior high school and getting worse as I entered Reformed circles is that I had terrible social anxiety which I responded to by retreating more and more into the world of analytical thought. I met a girl in grad school who acted like she was going along with the Calvinism fully right up into our brief marriage, but really I think she just enjoyed the fact that I was so mentally out of it that she found me easy to manipulate. When she found out just how numb to social interaction I was, she jumped ship, took a whole lot of my money.

But in the process of thinking about it, I realized that there was some practical truth to the Buddhist analysis of human suffering, albeit not metaphysical truth--living your life purely in a world of words and critical thought all the time can make you insensitive, in the most literal sense, to experience. And so I began to meditate and read Alan Watts, and it helped enormously. I mean, today I feel 100% comfortable speaking in front of a group and starting small talk, and I actually want to go out and experience a social life more than I want to read and digest art.

But that places me in stark contrast to the Reformed mindset. Sure, you had Jonathan Edwards and the Dutch Puritans and even the German Puritans (die Feinen) who emphasized experience. But I've found that even the Reformed who emphasize those teachers have a predilection for drifting into simplistic rationalist conclusions; they don't see the value of mystery and apophatic method. That's what drew me at first to read more about Orthodox beliefs, but also, a big hobby of mine is language learning. And the longer I've been at that, and the more techniques I've tried, and the more I've thought about second language acquisition from the perspective of my profession as a behavioral psychologist, the more I realize how context-bound language really is. It's a ridiculous idea that words have definite, genetically programmed meaning or structure. No. Language is simply a process that we go through i to obtain certain results from other people under various particular circumstances. "Meaning" is found in what we aim to get in what context.

And when I realized that, the argument for Apostolic Tradition suddenly clicked with me. I've seen over and over how rationalistic analysis of Scripture leads people down rabbit trails; and I've seen over and over how merely explaining a concept to someone makes no sense to them until they experience what you're talking about. How can I hope to experience Scripture when the context I have for it is something I've read in a scholarly book, not also experienced? And if we face that epistemological quandary, how else can we explain how God expects us to understand Scripture except that He has somehow preserved the experience necessary to its interpretation? There is still a lot I'd like to understand about Orthodoxy, but once you realize the necessity of both experience and Apostolic Tradition, there's really nowhere else to go. The Emerging Church is just youthful rebellion dressed up Oprah psychology, Rome consistently over-analyzes everything, and Methodo-Episcopalianism has long since descended into theological liberalism.

 

[jeffinjapan]

Welcome Jeff in Japan! Would you care to elaborate why you converted to Orthodoxy from the RC?

Why did I convert? Reading history. Many years ago I did a deep dive into the history behind the protestant reformation and came out the other side a Roman Catholic. And after several years of being a RC, I did a deep dive into the reason behind the split between the east and the west and came out the other side an Eastern Orthodox. EO is the authentic Christian faith as passed down from the apostles.