Anyone have good arguments against Calvinism.

[PloverWing]

Well, Calvinism is a broad term.
...
More definitions, please.

I agree. When I think of Reformed (Calvinist) Christianity, the first thing I think of is the form of worship: relatively nonliturgical, few images in the sanctuary, infrequent celebration of the Eucharist, and centrality of the pulpit and preaching.

And then, oh yeah, there's also the predestination stuff.

I never did find out which of these (or something else?) the original poster had in mind. They haven't been back to CF since July 8.

 

[Hoping2]

It is "regrettable" that you think the imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 5:18-19) is a hopeless status.

Imputed righteousness in an unrighteous man is like a pearl in a swine's snout.
The imputation of righteousness, makes us righteous !

Jesus' arm is too short. . .who knew?

Jesus' arm is perfect.
So is everyone that is "in Him".

 

[boughtwithaprice]

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​

i never said a believer is not called to serve.

But first a person must become a believer, a born again child of God and the only way to do this is to believe in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life. If you think loving and serving God is the way to Eternal Life you are sorely mistaken.

Ok, so a member of the elect does not love and serve God. Do you realize what you are saying?

You need to review the scriptures
Mental belief does not save, else Satan would be in heaven

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Imputed righteousness in an unrighteous man is like a pearl in a swine's snout.
The imputation of righteousness, makes us righteous !

Jesus' arm is perfect.
So is everyone that is "in Him".

Yes, God is mighty to save. We read the promise of the New Covenant in the words of the prophet Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 36

26 And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit in the midst of you: and I will cause you to walk in my commandments, and to keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And you shall dwell in the land which I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for corn, and will multiply it, and will lay no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that you bear no more the reproach of famine among the nations.



The imputed righteousness of Christ cleanses us from sin and causes us to walk in God’s commandments. It does not just make us snow covered dung. It cleanses all the filthiness from us

 

[enoob57]

Taking a step back from that way of thinking and am looking for different ways of looking at it.

Yes, I do actually. I was up in the air about it a great many years trying to figure my way through it and a lady showed me a site online called Soteriology101… It really solidified my understanding in the area Soteriology… link- SOTERIOLOGY 101

Isaiah 1:18 (KJV)
18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
there is no doubt in this passage God is speaking about Soteriology and he’s also saying that we need to reason together with Him.

Now this passage says this
2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
every good exegete will admit that this is apparently against the theology of TULIP and their defense is that it is a mystery… however, it cannot be considered a mystery because it has yes and no in the same instance thus it is an irrational reality… so My quandary is why would God call us to reason with him if it was going to be irrational and without reasoning to do so…

 

[d taylor]

Ok, so a member of the elect does not love and serve God. Do you realize what you are saying?

You need to review the scriptures
Mental belief does not save, else Satan would be in heaven

-

​

That is the only kind of belief there is.

If i said i have green eyes. You either believe me or not, there are no actions you can do to, to believe my statement.

So either you believe it is belief in Jesus for Eternal Life, that gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life or you do not.

 

[Fervent]

No argument from me or the Catholic Church
The contention is to those that say Lord, Lord and do nothing and take salvation for granted.
Jesus specifically warns against this

Matthew 7 involves people boasting about what great works they did in the name of Jesus, not those who beat their chest and say "Forgive me, Lord. I am a sinner."

 

[FutureAndAHope]

OSAS is not the logical conclusion to accepting predestination. Secondly, and apart from, predestination is taught in scripture.

Your conclusion here does not follow. OSAS states that ONLY those born again do not loose their salvation, it does not teach that all that profess being a believer prior to being born again will not loose their salvation. In order for your book to work you need to present an honest presentation of what OSAS actually teaches.

Let’s study these passages in context.

1. Hebrews 5 sets the audience.

“Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5‬:‭11‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Hebrews 5:11-14 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the | New American Standard Bible - N

Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the

bible.com

Paul is speaking to people that are extremely immature in their faith. Their understanding is “elementary” and need “milk” (like a baby that cannot eat solid foods yet). Paul states that all partaking in milk are “not accustomed to the word of righteousness”. These are people that are not yet born again. They dont have saving faith.

2. Hebrews 6 begins with “therefore” meaning that it is Paul’s conclusion from chapter 5 (my point 1).

“Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God | New American Standard Bible - NASB 1995 (NASB1995) | Download T

Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God

bible.com

This sets the stage for the verses that follow. Paul is going to try for them to ”press to maturity” (put into reality their unrealized profession of faith) is going to give them a warning first about what happens if they remain immature and not fully accept Christ as their Lord and Savior.

3. Let’s touch on verses 7 and 8 before moving to verses 3 to 6.

“For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6‬:‭7‬-‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Hebrews 6:7-8 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles | New American Standard Bible - NAS

For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles

bible.com

This is a teaching that was first taught by Jesus in His parable in Mat. 13.

“And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow; and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil. But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out. And others fell on the good soil and *yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. He who has ears, let him hear.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭3‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Matthew 13:4-9 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they h | New American Standard Bible - NA

and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they h

bible.com

There are different stages of faith. People can do a profession of faith, even go to a few services and Bible studies, and still not become a believer. The writer of Hebrews is referring directly to this parable.

4. Verses 3-6.

“And this we will do, if God permits. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6‬:‭3‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Hebrews 6:3-6 And this we will do, if God permits. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the g | New American Standard Bible - NAS

And this we will do, if God permits. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the g

bible.com

Do you now see who Paul is referring to? Some of these immature in the faith people “tasted the heavenly gift”, “been partakers of the Holy Spirit” , and have ”tasted” the good word of God, but never advanced to actually becoming believers and be born again. They never gave their hearts to Christ. So this people can be likened to the second and third soils in Jesus parable. To these people tasting the truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. They tasted the truth, they did not advance to maturity (solid food), they did not exercise repentance, and now they have no hope of restoration because of they rejected Christ with full knowledge. They never had saving faith.

We’ll start the discussion with theses verses and move to the others. This post is long enough. I expect your reply to include your exegesis directed strictly to these verses as I have done.

I have been looking at Hebrews 6 in more detail, and I will state what I believe it "could" be saying.

Heb 6:1-2 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.​

It appears that there were people in the church, who were coming to receive Christ "again", to be baptised again. Like happens in many church circles, it is often due to a misunderstanding of God's promise. Paul goes on to say, this practice, of receiving Christ again, is unnecessary. In fact if they had really fallen away, they could not "have a second baptism".

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.​

Next we see the process, if "given grace" we still bear weeds (sin) it is near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. But if it bears good deeds, then it receives the blessing.

Heb 6:7-9 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.​

He finishes with "but we are confident of better things concerning you". In Hebrews 6-4 he was speaking of a negative thing, but now saying He had "hope", confidence, it would not happen to them.

But as for my post you will see "many" scriptures, that support the idea a Christian can fall, not just Hebrews 6.

 

[Hentenza]

I have been looking at Hebrews 6 in more detail, and I will state what I believe it "could" be saying.

Heb 6:1-2 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.​

It appears that there were people in the church, who were coming to receive Christ "again", to be baptised again. Like happens in many church circles, it is often due to a misunderstanding of God's promise. Paul goes on to say, this practice, of receiving Christ again, is unnecessary. In fact if they had really fallen away, they could not "have a second baptism".

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.​

Next we see the process, if "given grace" we still bear weeds (sin) it is near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. But if it bears good deeds, then it receives the blessing.

Heb 6:7-9 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.​

He finishes with "but we are confident of better things concerning you". In Hebrews 6-4 he was speaking of a negative thing, but now saying He had "hope", confidence, it would not happen to them.

But as for my post you will see "many" scriptures, that support the idea a Christian can fall, not just Hebrews 6.

As I stated I wanted to address your post one scripture at a time for clarity. The book of Hebrews was written sometime in the 60’s, certainly prior to the destruction of the temple in 70ad. The people that the writer of Hebrews was referring to were not yet full believers, most likely Jews, that had started to convert but slipped back to Judaism because of the pressure of persecution. At any rate these are verses that do not support your premise.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

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​

That is the only kind of belief there is.

If i said i have green eyes. You either believe me or not, there are no actions you can do to, to believe my statement.

So either you believe it is belief in Jesus for Eternal Life, that gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life or you do not.

You need to read the scriptures. Faith without works is dead. Jesus says if you hear His words and do not put them into practice, you are as a man that builds his house on sand. If you love me, keep my commandments
1cor13 also tells us if we have faith to move mountains but have not charity, we are nothing.

Works by themselves do not save, but faith is always accompanied by works

Charity is divine love and is an act of the will, if we hear the word and love God, we would eagerly desire to put His words into practice

What you say is not scriptural, and is a man’s view of scripture, not scripture itself.

Scripture says God’s word will not return to Him void. They will accomplish God’s purpose. Your contention is that we just believe in Jesus and do nothing, all the while ignoring the scriptures that tell us to repent and strive to walk the narrow way to enter by the straight gate

You are not putting your faith in God if you do that, you are putting your faith in yourself to understand God and demand that He save you despite your lack of obedience.

Have you no fear of God who is merciful, yet is also perfectly just?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Matthew 7 involves people boasting about what great works they did in the name of Jesus, not those who beat their chest and say "Forgive me, Lord. I am a sinner."

The works that I described are not boastful, but acts of penance and humility. No one that is elect counts works for himself, as scripture says it is no longer I that liveth but Christ liveth in me
Scripture says that we will be judged by our works. You can try to ignore it, but you will face the judgement someday. You will have to give account of your lack of action. Remember the parable of the talents

 

[d taylor]

You need to read the scriptures. Faith without works is dead. Jesus says if you hear His words and do not put them into practice, you are as a man that builds his house on sand. If you love me, keep my commandments
1cor13 also tells us if we have faith to move mountains but have not charity, we are nothing.

Works by themselves do not save, but faith is always accompanied by works

Charity is divine love and is an act of the will, if we hear the word and love God, we would eagerly desire to put His words into practice

What you say is not scriptural, and is a man’s view of scripture, not scripture itself.

Scripture says God’s word will not return to Him void. They will accomplish God’s purpose. Your contention is that we just believe in Jesus and do nothing, all the while ignoring the scriptures that tell us to repent and strive to walk the narrow way to enter by the straight gate

You are not putting your faith in God if you do that, you are putting your faith in yourself to understand God and demand that He save you despite your lack of obedience.

Have you no fear of God who is merciful, yet is also perfectly just?

-
​

Oh so the verses that say belief in Jesus gives Eternal Life to the believer. That i have posted are not scriptural, here is another one. That is not scriptural according to your beliefs.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

The question is why do you attack the only way God has given for man to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.
If you love God as you claim, why are you not telling people about this good news. That anyone can have God's free gift of Eternal Life, by belief in Jesus.

Why are you Judaizing God's love message of God's free gift of Eternal Life to all who will believe in Jesus.

 

[Hentenza]

Faith without works is dead.

Paul states in Eph. 2

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

bible.com

Are Paul and James contradicting each other?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

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​

Oh so the verses that say belief in Jesus gives Eternal Life to the believer. That i have posted are not scriptural, here is another one. That is not scriptural according to your beliefs.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

The words are scripture, your understanding of them is not. It depends on how the word belief is defined. Is it mental ascent only? “ I believe in Jesus, I know He is there” That is the same faith as the demons

We are called to have faith in Jesus as Abraham had faith in God. God told him to sacrifice Isaac, so he did it, and was only stopped by an angel
Abraham did not just sit in his house and say well I believe in God, so I am saved, I don’t have to do nuthin. Abraham actually got up and did what God told him to do

Jesus tells us to deny our very self, take up our cross and follow Him. Do you practice self denial?


Jesus tells us to love our enemies, not with phony feelings and false virtue signaling but actual love. Do you do that? Study your enemies, know what they desire, prayerfully ask God what you should do?

Jesus tells us to be poor in spirit, to thirst for God as if lost in a desert. Do you love God and desire more? Or are you as the Church in Laodicea that says I am rich, well fed, and have need of nothing? Does it not scare you that God says He will vomit you out of His mouth unless you buy of Him gold tried in the fire?

Just stop and think. Who is it that does not want us to do good works? Does sloth glorify God?
What deception is this? Does not scripture say that we are the salt of the earth, the light of the world, let your good works shine before men, so they may give glory to God?


I cannot condone the sloth gospel, it is anti biblical, anti righteous, anti Christ

 

[d taylor]

The words are scripture, your understanding of them is not. It depends on how the word belief is defined. Is it mental ascent only? “ I believe in Jesus, I know He is there” That is the same faith as the demons

We are called to have faith in Jesus as Abraham had faith in God. God told him to sacrifice Isaac, so he did it, and was only stopped by an angel
Abraham did not just sit in his house and say well I believe in God, so I am saved, I don’t have to do nuthin. Abraham actually got up and did what God told him to do

Jesus tells us to deny our very self, take up our cross and follow Him. Do you practice self denial?


Jesus tells us to love our enemies, not with phony feelings and false virtue signaling but actual love. Do you do that? Study your enemies, know what they desire, prayerfully ask God what you should do?

Jesus tells us to be poor in spirit, to thirst for God as if lost in a desert. Do you love God and desire more? Or are you as the Church in Laodicea that says I am rich, well fed, and have need of nothing? Does it not scare you that God says He will vomit you out of His mouth unless you buy of Him gold tried in the fire?

Just stop and think. Who is it that does not want us to do good works? Does sloth glorify God?
What deception is this? Does not scripture say that we are the salt of the earth, the light of the world, let your good works shine before men, so they may give glory to God?


I cannot condone the sloth gospel, it is anti biblical, anti righteous, anti Christ

-
​

Abraham had faith in Jesus, not just a faith in God

And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Between Genesis 15:6 and Issac's life there was many years 50+, Issac's birth is not until Genesis 21

So Abraham believed God in Genesis 15:6 and at that very moment of belief, receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. So Abraham and the account of Issac has nothing to do with Abraham receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life, which happened in Genesis 15:6.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Paul states in Eph. 2

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

bible.com

Are Paul and James contradicting each other?

No. We are saved BY grace, through faith
Faith is not of ourselves but the gift of God
People say we are saved by faith alone, that is a deception. A simple reading of 1 Corinthians 13 shows it to be false.

When we are born again, we are given the 3 theological virtues. These are virtues which natural men cannot obtain. These are Faith, Hope and Charity.
The natural man is oriented to his own good and the things of this world. He sees the value of wealth, vain glory and pride. It seems absurd to him that he should debase himself and become a servant. He cannot see God, have hope that an unseen God would cleanse him from sin, nor love this same unseen God.
A born again soul receives the gift of faith to know that God is and is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. Hope that God is faithful and will complete His work in him or cleansing from sin and charity, which is divine love, to actually love God and desire to be cleansed from sin and his disordered physical desires.

Those gifts come only from God, and we are then a babe in Christ. To progress spiritually, we then seek the four cardinal virtues. Cardinal meaning hinge upon which all other virtues turn. These are Justice, Temperance, Prudence and Fortitude. These virtues are only gained by practice, we have to work at them to grow strong spiritually , much the same way one would work in a gym to grow physically strong.
Justice is treating others according to their due. We begin the work of Justice by humility and self denial. Scripture says to consider all others as better than yourself. We do not lord ourselves over others and demand service, we become servants ourselves.
Prudence is knowing and doing what is right. That comes from study, as scripture says to study to show yourself approved. It also states that we are to receive training in righteousness.
Temperance is control over our natural desires. The natural man is as a brute beast whose god is his belly, good for nothing. The godly man brings his desires under control of reason and the will, in order to honor God. The temperate man learns to walk with poverty, subject to contempt, and humility. Jesus says we will be hated by all men for His name’s sake. We learn to accept it and continue to love despite the hate. We return not evil for evil, rather overcome evil with good.
Fortitude is the courage to do all those things solely on our faith in God out of pure love for Him

Scripture says that we are the salt of the Earth, a city shining on a hill. Let our light shine before men, that they may see our good works and give glory to God.

If we do not do good works, we are as salt that has lost its savor. What good is it? Good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled under foot

It is demonic faith that merely believes Jesus exists. Satan believes there is one God, so what?
Christianity is a practical faith in that it must be put into pracitce.
If you are around people that discourage you from practicing the faith, then leave. They are not telling you the truth. If you don’t know what to do, then start with prayer, which you should be doing daily anyway. As scripture says, if a man lacks anything, let him ask God.
Simple start for good works is prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. If one does not think he can do those things, then he not have Hope. If one does not want to do those things, he does not have Charity. Tell me again how he is born again and not deceived by demonic faith?

Scripture says you will seek God and you will find Him when you seek with all of your heart, not mere lip service

 

[Clare73]

Imputed righteousness in an unrighteous man is like a pearl in a swine's snout.

Swine snout or not, it frees one from God's condemnation at the Judgment.

The imputation of righteousness, makes us righteous !

Imputation is not inherent, it is only a legal standing in God's Court of Justice, freeing one from condemnation.

Jesus' arm is perfect.
So is everyone that is "in Him".

It's no about Jesus' arm. . .it's about satisfaction of God's justice.
Apart from Jesus, no one is inherently perfect until the resurrection.

Lotta' misunderstanding of NT doctrine. . .

 

[boughtwithaprice]

-
​

Abraham had faith in Jesus, not just a faith in God

And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Between Genesis 15:6 and Issac's life there was many years 50+, Issac's birth is not until Genesis 21

So Abraham believed God in Genesis 15:6 and at that very moment of belief, receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. So Abraham and the account of Issac has nothing to do with Abraham receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life, which happened in Genesis 15:6.

There is no question that the elect are in the mind of God, as He is all knowing.
The only question is who is exactly a member of the elect? The only way we can tell is by our works. Scripture tells us that there are people that claim to be Christian but are not. Anyone that says he loves God, yet hates his brother is a liar and the truth is not in him.
We are not to tempt God in our search for our membership in the elect, as scripture says thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. A person refusing to do good works would be the same a Jesus throwing Himself off of the high temple and expecting angels to save Him.
Satan told Jesus to do this, not scripture. Scripture tells us to do good works and God is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. If one refuses to do good works, because he thinks he is already saved, he is taking Satan up on his offer to tempt God, rather than obeying scripture

It is foolish to speculate when Abraham was saved because he did offer Isaac. According to you he would have been saved whether he offered Isaac or not, but scripture does not say that is true.
The Gospel is not presented as a one time legal transaction, it is a lifetime of transformation from enemy of God to love of God by His creation

The implication from scripture is that if we tempt God, we will be severely disappointed. The Psalmist says


6 Come let us adore and fall down: and weep before the Lord that made us. 7 For he is the Lord our God: and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. 8 Today if you shall hear his voice, harden not your hearts: 9 As in the provocation, according to the day of temptation in the wilderness: where your fathers tempted me, they proved me, and saw my works. 10 Forty years long was I offended with that generation, and I said: These always err in heart.
11 And these men have not known my ways: so I swore in my wrath that they shall not enter into my rest.



Do you want to tempt God and face His wrath, or do you want to do good works and obey scripture?

 

[d taylor]

There is no question that the elect are in the mind of God, as He is all knowing.
The only question is who is exactly a member of the elect? The only way we can tell is by our works. Scripture tells us that there are people that claim to be Christian but are not. Anyone that says he loves God, yet hates his brother is a liar and the truth is not in him.
We are not to tempt God in our search for our membership in the elect, as scripture says thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. A person refusing to do good works would be the same a Jesus throwing Himself off of the high temple and expecting angels to save Him.
Satan told Jesus to do this, not scripture. Scripture tells us to do good works and God is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. If one refuses to do good works, because he thinks he is already saved, he is taking Satan up on his offer to tempt God, rather than obeying scripture

It is foolish to speculate when Abraham was saved because he did offer Isaac. According to you he would have been saved whether he offered Isaac or not, but scripture does not say that is true.
The Gospel is not presented as a one time legal transaction, it is a lifetime of transformation from enemy of God to love of God by His creation

The implication from scripture is that if we tempt God, we will be severely disappointed. The Psalmist says


6 Come let us adore and fall down: and weep before the Lord that made us. 7 For he is the Lord our God: and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. 8 Today if you shall hear his voice, harden not your hearts: 9 As in the provocation, according to the day of temptation in the wilderness: where your fathers tempted me, they proved me, and saw my works. 10 Forty years long was I offended with that generation, and I said: These always err in heart.
11 And these men have not known my ways: so I swore in my wrath that they shall not enter into my rest.



Do you want to tempt God and face His wrath, or do you want to do good works and obey scripture?

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It is foolish for you, for me it is not. Because I believe God and His promise, that all who believe in Jesus at the very moment of belief, cross over from death to life.

J. Wilbur Chapman tells the following true story of how D.L. Moody used John 5:24 to help him gain assurance of salvation:

I was studying for the ministry, and I heard that D.L. Moody was to preach in Chicago. I went to hear him. Finally I got into his after meeting. I shall never forget the thrill that went through me when he came and sat down beside me as an inquirer. He asked me if I was a Christian. I said, “Mr. Moody, I am not sure whether I am a Christian or not.’
He very kindly took his Bible and opened it to the fifth chapter of John, and the twenty-fourth verse, which reads as follows: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and beleiveth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.”

Suppose you had read it through for the first time, wouldn’t you think it was wonderful? I read it through, and he said, “Do you believe it?” I said, “Yes.” “Do you accept it?” I said, “Yes.” “Well, are you a Christian?”

“Mr. Moody, I sometimes think I am, and sometimes I am afraid I am not.”
He very kindly said, “Read it again.”

So I read it again, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and beleiveth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.”Then he said, “Do you believe it?” I said, “Yes.” “Do you receive Him?” I said, “Yes.” “Well,” he said, “are you a Christian?”

I just started to say over again that sometimes I was afraid I was not, when the only time in all the years I knew him and loved him, he was sharp with me. He turned on me with his eyes flashing and said, “See here, whom are you doubting?”

Then I saw it for the first time, that when I was afraid I was not a Christian I was doubting God’s Word. I read it again with my eyes overflowing with tears.

Since that day I have had many sorrows and many joys, but never have I doubted for a moment that I was a Christian, because God said it.

 

[Hentenza]

No. We are saved BY grace, through faith
Faith is not of ourselves but the gift of God

You only addressed 1/2 of the verse. How about “not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” (Paul) And “
“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”(James).
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People say we are saved by faith alone, that is a deception. A simple reading of 1 Corinthians 13 shows it to be false.

I will posit to you that all that have saving faith do indeed meet the love parameters of 1 Cor. 13. Faith alone by someone with saving faith automatically produce good works so salvation by faith alone, as Paul teaches, is not a deception. A deception is those churches that require works FOR salvation. In fact many cults teach that to keep their people in line, obedient and in bondage.

When we are born again, we are given the 3 theological virtues. These are virtues which natural men cannot obtain. These are Faith, Hope and Charity.
The natural man is oriented to his own good and the things of this world. He sees the value of wealth, vain glory and pride. It seems absurd to him that he should debase himself and become a servant. He cannot see God, have hope that an unseen God would cleanse him from sin, nor love this same unseen God.

I volunteer twice a month at a soup kitchen that is organized and managed by a husband and wife that are atheist. They are the most humble and nice people that I have ever met and have more hope and charity than most. We enjoy having theological discussions which I consider to be God working through me to plant seeds. I see more Christians boasting about their works that I see most “natural” people. In fact Ghandy stated that he loved our Jesus but hated our Christians. Your church is failing in its mission to spread the gospel if they teach you such haughty type teachings. Jesus came and worked with the sick (not health wise primarily).

A born again soul receives the gift of faith to know that God is and is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. Hope that God is faithful and will complete His work in him or cleansing from sin and charity, which is divine love, to actually love God and desire to be cleansed from sin and his disordered physical desires.

Those gifts come only from God, and we are then a babe in Christ. To progress spiritually, we then seek the four cardinal virtues. Cardinal meaning hinge upon which all other virtues turn. These are Justice, Temperance, Prudence and Fortitude. These virtues are only gained by practice, we have to work at them to grow strong spiritually , much the same way one would work in a gym to grow physically strong.
Justice is treating others according to their due. We begin the work of Justice by humility and self denial. Scripture says to consider all others as better than yourself. We do not lord ourselves over others and demand service, we become servants ourselves.
Prudence is knowing and doing what is right. That comes from study, as scripture says to study to show yourself approved. It also states that we are to receive training in righteousness.
Temperance is control over our natural desires. The natural man is as a brute beast whose god is his belly, good for nothing. The godly man brings his desires under control of reason and the will, in order to honor God. The temperate man learns to walk with poverty, subject to contempt, and humility. Jesus says we will be hated by all men for His name’s sake. We learn to accept it and continue to love despite the hate. We return not evil for evil, rather overcome evil with good.
Fortitude is the courage to do all those things solely on our faith in God out of pure love for Him

Justice, prudence, and fortitude are works by which people can boast. These are results of saving faith not works.

Scripture says that we are the salt of the Earth, a city shining on a hill. Let our light shine before men, that they may see our good works and give glory to God.

If we do not do good works, we are as salt that has lost its savor. What good is it? Good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled under foot

It is demonic faith that merely believes Jesus exists. Satan believes there is one God, so what?
Christianity is a practical faith in that it must be put into pracitce.
If you are around people that discourage you from practicing the faith, then leave. They are not telling you the truth. If you don’t know what to do, then start with prayer, which you should be doing daily anyway. As scripture says, if a man lacks anything, let him ask God.
Simple start for good works is prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. If one does not think he can do those things, then he not have Hope. If one does not want to do those things, he does not have Charity. Tell me again how he is born again and not deceived by demonic faith?

Scripture says you will seek God and you will find Him when you seek with all of your heart, not mere lip service

You have the typical faith plus works soteriology that your church incorrectly teaches. Paul and James are indeed not in tension, Paul speaks of salvation by the grace of God through faith without works which leads to justification. James teaches about the lifelong journey of sanctification for those with saving faith. You are incorrect in your thinking that sola fide teaches that anyone that professes their faith are indeed saved. That has never been the case. I going to give you two sets of verses to study.


In first set Jesus teaches about the different types of faith in the parable of the sower.

“And He told them many things in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow; and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and they sprang up immediately, because they had no depth of soil. But after the sun rose, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out. But others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundred, some sixty, and some thirty times as much. The one who has ears, let him hear.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭3‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 13:3-9 And He told them many things in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow; and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. Others fell on the rocky pla | New American Standard Bible - NA

And He told them many things in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow; and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. Others fell on the rocky pla

bible.com

Only those whose seed fell in good soil have saving faith and are justified. Many of the others could get there if they in fact, and by the heart actually choose Jesus as their Lord and Savior not just a profession of faith.

In the second set of verses Paul teaches how our works (those works that God prepared beforehand for us to do) will be judged at judgement day.

“According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, each one’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭10‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can | New American Standard Bib

According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can

bible.com

As long as the believer has saving faith, even if they stumble in their works, they will be saved. The reason is that the works that we do we do FROM salvation not FOR salvation.

“They said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed; but he, Paul, shows that he who adhered to faith alone is blessed.”- St. John Chrysostom (347 – 407 AD) (Homily on Galatians 3)

“Indeed, this is the perfect and complete glorification of God, when one does not exult in his own righteousness, but recognizing oneself as lacking true righteousness to be justified by faith alone in Christ.”- St. Basil the Great (330 – 379 AD) (Homily on Humility, PG 31.532; TFoTC vol. 9, p. 479)

I hope and pray that the above enlightens you and helps you understand this topic better.