anyone else not like Sunday worship?

[BobRyan]

Well to be frank, I disagree with a lot of SDA doctrines, so I wouldn't be a SDA myself. I'd be interested in finding a Seventh Day Baptist Church but I don't know of any in my location.

in fact looking online, the closest one to me is about an 8 hour drive lol.

ok - well 8 hours is a bit of a ride... I just wanted to point to that connection with Baptists.

There is also this section in the "Baptist Confession of Faith" dealing with the Ten Commandments, Law and Grace that I think you will enjoy -

Baptist Confession of Faith -- as formatted by C.H.Spurgeon


The Law of God - Baptist Confession of Faith: Section 19


1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the Ten Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.

7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

 

[tall73]

Not to be a Judaizer, but I do wish that Baptists at least would go back to Saturday worship, just because Sunday was something instigated by the Roman Catholic Church, and it's kinda like.. even though we're not Catholic, we're obeying a Catholic doctrine that they invented themselves. I don't like the idea of obeying the Pope at all.

A. Baptists are generally congregational, so you could just convince your congregation.

B. You could keep Sabbath at home then go to the Baptist Church or any church.

 

[RBPerry]

If you wish to join with others that keep the Saturday sabbath I recommend joining an Adventist church. I know, coming from me that may be confusing. You can worship with and fellowship with other Saturday keepers without buying into the dietary, and other restrictions. I know several of my Adventist friends that eat meat, have wine (fermented) with dinner, and don't hold to all the rules and theology.
Here is the thing, if you are looking for the perfect church, you won't find it. People aren't perfect, so you aren't going to find perfection in any denomination or non-denomination.

 

[Jamdoc]

If you wish to join with others that keep the Saturday sabbath I recommend joining an Adventist church. I know, coming from me that may be confusing. You can worship with and fellowship with other Saturday keepers without buying into the dietary, and other restrictions. I know several of my Adventist friends that eat meat, have wine (fermented) with dinner, and don't hold to all the rules and theology.
Here is the thing, if you are looking for the perfect church, you won't find it. People aren't perfect, so you aren't going to find perfection in any denomination or non-denomination.

Yeah, as it is I have to compromise a lot on doctrinal positions, most of them minor (and really this is minor too, it IS a nitpick, and it's not like Sunday is the only time a Baptist Church usually gathers, there is also Wednesday evening at my local church which I know is common for Baptists and sometimes off night bible study/prayer meetings.

 

[RBPerry]

Yeah, as it is I have to compromise a lot on doctrinal positions, most of them minor (and really this is minor too, it IS a nitpick, and it's not like Sunday is the only time a Baptist Church usually gathers, there is also Wednesday evening at my local church which I know is common for Baptists and sometimes off night bible study/prayer meetings.

The church I attend has services on Saturday night, and Sunday. Purpose has nothing to do with the sabbath, but for those who must work on Sunday. We live close to one of the large prisons and many in our congregation work there, and need to work on Sunday. We also have Wednesday bible studies, and Tuesday men's bible study. Many of the large churches has something going almost every night of the week.
The main thing is to get into a fellowship and don't sweat the small things. Commit your search to prayer and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you to where he wants you to be, our focus needs to be on His will, not our own.

 

[BobRyan]

Yeah, as it is I have to compromise a lot on doctrinal positions, most of them minor (and really this is minor too, it IS a nitpick, and it's not like Sunday is the only time a Baptist Church usually gathers, there is also Wednesday evening at my local church which I know is common for Baptists and sometimes off night bible study/prayer meetings.

Given that William Miller was a Baptist preacher that was influential in starting the Adventist movement - I am going to start a thread here about "what kind of Baptist" an Adventist church would be some sort of combination of:

1. Free Will Baptist
2. Seventh-day Baptist
3. Charismatic Southern Baptist - Charismatic Southern Baptists
(very "light" on the Charismatic part in our case)
===============

Where a combination of that group into one Adventist Baptist denomination would simply add some changes in eschatology. For example - we believe the Rapture happens in Rev 19 - but it is still the basic Rapture of resurrected saints and living-saints translated with immortal bodies and taken to Heaven with Christ for 1000 years.

===============
done:
14 minutes ago #1

 

[RBPerry]

Wow Bob, you do want to open a can of worms, lol, go for it.

 

[The Liturgist]

No, first of all Sunday worship was not discussed at the council of Nicaea. It was which Sunday the Church would celebrate Easter that was discussed because evidently not everyone was on the same page as to exactly which Sunday it was. If my memory serves correct it was Alexandria that was celebrating Easter on the wrong Sunday. Second, Constantine didn’t take any part at all in any decisions made at Nicaea, he attended but did not interfere with the proceedings of the council at all. Sunday worship was never discussed in the ecumenical councils because it was never questioned because it came directly from the apostles.

Actually it was Asia Minor, Crete, Corinth and Libya that were holding onto Quartodecimianism IIRC.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Not to be a Judaizer, but I do wish that Baptists at least would go back to Saturday worship, just because Sunday was something instigated by the Roman Catholic Church, and it's kinda like.. even though we're not Catholic, we're obeying a Catholic doctrine that they invented themselves. I don't like the idea of obeying the Pope at all.

Anti-Catholic Protestants really, really, really need to learn about Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and the Assyrian Church of the East.

No, the Catholic Church is not innately evil, apostate, or a counter-Church. Any serious and thoughtful study of the above mentioned Churches can help to prove this.

 

[The Liturgist]

Well to be frank, I disagree with a lot of SDA doctrines, so I wouldn't be a SDA myself. I'd be interested in finding a Seventh Day Baptist Church but I don't know of any in my location.

in fact looking online, the closest one to me is about an 8 hour drive lol.

Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches routinely have worship services on Saturday and during the week. In fact, except for the Armenians, the EOs and OOs have their main Paschal (Easter) worship at either midnight, or more commonly, at 8 PM or earlier on Saturday. Technically, it is liturgical Sunday, because Holy Saturday ends during the Vesperal Divine Liturgy on Saturday mornings.

My congregational church has one ministry that meets on Saturday but that is mainly for the convenience of people who cannot work on Sunday, and also to enable me to cover more geographical territory.

 

[The Liturgist]

Anti-Catholic Protestants really, really, really need to learn about Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and the Assyrian Church of the East.

No, the Catholic Church is not innately evil, apostate, or a counter-Church. Any serious and thoughtful study of the above mentioned Churches can help to prove this.

Amen to that. We should probably do a thread to explore the history of those churches for the benefit of members.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Amen to that. We should probably do a thread to explore the history of those churches for the benefit of members.

Good idea! I can hunt around for websites from those Churches and send you some!

 

[anna ~ grace]

Or, just do a thread. Lemme see.

 

[Jamdoc]

Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches routinely have worship services on Saturday and during the week. In fact, except for the Armenians, the EOs and OOs have their main Paschal (Easter) worship at either midnight, or more commonly, at 8 PM or earlier on Saturday. Technically, it is liturgical Sunday, because Holy Saturday ends during the Vesperal Divine Liturgy on Saturday mornings.

My congregational church has one ministry that meets on Saturday but that is mainly for the convenience of people who cannot work on Sunday, and also to enable me to cover more geographical territory.

I also sharply disagree with a lot of Orthodox practices too. I'm not going to go to a church that teaches works salvation, or "venerates" icons or statues.

 

[Jamdoc]

Given that William Miller was a Baptist preacher that was influential in starting the Adventist movement - I am going to start a thread here about "what kind of Baptist" an Adventist church would be some sort of combination of:

1. Free Will Baptist
2. Seventh-day Baptist
3. Charismatic Southern Baptist - Charismatic Southern Baptists
(very "light" on the Charismatic part in our case)
===============

Where a combination of that group into one Adventist Baptist denomination would simply add some changes in eschatology. For example - we believe the Rapture happens in Rev 19 - but it is still the basic Rapture of resurrected saints and living-saints translated with immortal bodies and taken to Heaven with Christ for 1000 years.

===============
done:
14 minutes ago #1

One of the dotrines that bothers me about SDA is Soul sleep, the other is the idea of losing your salvation so you have to get saved and resaved and resaved and resaved again, which borders on works salvation.

What I believe is that we're not saved because of OUR obedience or faithfulness but because of HIS obedience and faithfulness.
But I'd rather not get into that, that's an entirely different doctrinal debate probably best held elsewhere. Just saying because those doctrines are incompatible with my beliefs it'd be hard to go to congregations that teach different doctrines like those.

 

[BobRyan]

One of the dotrines that bothers me about SDA is Soul sleep, the other is the idea of losing your salvation so you have to get saved and resaved and resaved and resaved again, which borders on works salvation.

Free Will Baptists also do not believe in OSAS - once-saved-always-saved. (Which is why I list them in my list of groups that teach what Adventists teach on certain doctrines)
What We Believe – National Association of Free Will Baptists, Inc

The Bible reason for not accepting OSAS - is Romans 11, John 15, Matt 18, Ezek 18, Gal 5:1-4, Heb 6:2-8... (ok there are a lot of them so a few examples )

Gal 5:1-4 "you have fallen from Grace, you have been severed from Christ"

Matt 18 teaches "forgiveness revoked" - when in Christ's illustration we have "I forgave you all that debt... turn him over to the torturers until he should repay the full amount owed"

Rom 11 : 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

John 15 "every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit ... cut off and cast into the fire"

So that is why there is a Free Will Baptist denomination. (Aside from other texts like John 1:11 about freewill)

What I believe is that we're not saved because of OUR obedience or faithfulness but because of HIS obedience and faithfulness.

I think we would both agree that God is always faithful and Christ was obedient and faithful no matter who someone else is saved-or-lost.

The issue has to do with real Bible warning about "falling from Grace", "being severed from Christ", "forgiveness revoked", the Matt 13 stony ground that "Springs to life" and received the gospel "with great joy" but then dies away later.

Just saying because those doctrines are incompatible with my beliefs it'd be hard to go to congregations that teach different doctrines like those.

I agree with you on this point - I would not be a member of a denomination that taught doctrine in opposition to what I believe the Bible is teaching. I think that is the only safe course.

 

[BobRyan]

One of the dotrines that bothers me about SDA is Soul sleep,

In my post that you respond to I state that Adventists take 1 Thess 4:13-18 more literally than most denominations.

In 1Thess 4 Paul is basically giving the sermon that all Christians preach at funerals...

Paul does not say he is speaking about those "who are live in Christ in heaven but have a body that sleeps". "The person" is the "who". The body is the "it". The body decays and returns to dust.. .is destroyed 1 Cor 15 not even the same body that is resurrected.

1 Thess 4:
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.


John 11 (our "friend" Lazarus sleeps) -- the person.
===================

from wikipedia -

"William Tyndale (1494–1536) argued against Thomas More in favour of soul sleep:

"Morey suggests that John Wycliffe (1320–84) and Tyndale taught the doctrine of soul sleep "as the answer to the Catholic teachings of purgatory and masses for the dead."[94]

"Many Anabaptists in this period, such as Michael Sattler (1490–1527),[95][96] were Christian mortalists.[97]

"However, the best known advocate of soul sleep was Martin Luther (1483–1546).[98]

"Soul sleep has been called a "major current of seventeenth century protestant ideology."[126] John Milton wrote in his unpublished De Doctrina Christiana,

19th century - - "the Baptist Conditionalist Association (1878),[166]

====================

Not the subject of this thread - but the subject has an interesting history and Bible texts associated with it.

 

[Danthemailman]

I have no problem whatsoever with worshiping the Lord on Sunday at church. I have no problem with worshiping the Lord on Saturday at church either. What I have a problem with is people turning keeping the sabbath day into a 'legalistic prescription' for Christians under the new covenant.

Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on Christians under the new covenant. (Colossians 2:16-17)

 

[BobRyan]

I have no problem whatsoever with worshiping the Lord on Sunday at church. I have no problem with worshiping the Lord on Saturday at church either. What I have a problem with is people turning keeping the sabbath day into a 'legalistic prescription'

1. New Covenant "Law of God written on the heart" Jer 31:31-34 --- so was God being a legalist?
2. "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 - was Paul being a "legalist"?
3. "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12 - was John being a "legalist"?

See also 1 John 3:4 "sin IS the transgression of the Law" - and "these things I write that you sin not" 1 John 2:1

4. Westminster Confession of Faith sectn 19, and Baptist Confession of Faith sectn 19, both agree that the TEN are included in the moral law of God and written on the heart under the New Covenant. Is it your POV that these are all "legalist" organizations?

Obedience to the Word of God is not called "Legalism" in the Bible. I like how Paul David Washer makes this point in his sermons.

 

[BobRyan]

Anti-Catholic Protestants

That is an odd statement

Protestant Reformers were "protesting Catholics" they were not members some other church - they were themselves Catholic.