Any christian mathematicians or physicists?

[juvenissun]

The Taliban ran an extraordinarily efficient government for the brief period when they were in a position to do so.

That is the word, efficiency. And it is never a virtue for democracy.
All known political/social systems have many problems. There is no way to avoid it and it is also the way a human society should be. God tells us a "better" way to live. But Jews did not want it (ironically, the excuse is: inefficiency). And we still do not want it.

 

[juvenissun]

Scripture seems pretty clear that it never worked.

I am not sure why do you say that. Did it work more than 200 years before the King Saul? Yes, there are problems in that kind of society. But which one has no problem? The key is that kind of society is the right way to have a God-centered society, but not a theocracy like the Taliban.

 

[bhsmte]

A friend of mine is in trouble, lol... I've been invited to an event Lennox is hosting under the guise that he is a YEC. If he isn't, then I've been hoodwinked.

I highly doubt Lennox is YEC.

Have seen a few of his debates on youtube and he comes across as a terrific guy, who is everyone's favorite grandpa.

 

[ebia]

Did it work more than 200 years before the King Saul? .

No. That's the whole point.

 

[Mr Clean]

But, that is a local level government. And it is not a sense of theocracy like the Catholic church in middle age Europe. It is a God-centered society with a minimum human governance. That is why I said it is a system better than theocracy. In fact, it is much better.

I've read Judges, admittedly a while back so my memory of its contents is pretty useless. But accepting what you say is true since I'm sure you know it pretty well, I still fail to see how that is a better system of governance.

 

[Mr Clean]

The Taliban ran an extraordinarily efficient government for the brief period when they were in a position to do so.

That's very debatable. They regressed on many fronts, including human rights, medicine/health, infrastructure, education, and so on.

I have to go with the old quote: Democracy is the worst form of government ever created except for every other form besides it...

 

[ebia]

That's very debatable. They regressed on many fronts, including human rights, medicine/health, infrastructure, education, and so on.

Human rights isn't a reflection of the effectiveness or efficiency of government but of the values it's trying to implement. As to the others, (a) they mostly made improvement over what was there when they assumed power and (b) they did so on a microscopic budget since they had taken over a country with no economy. During NATO's involvement the US was spending more each day in Afghanistan than the Taliban had available to spend each year.

The Taliban didn't make Afghanistan disfunctional - the Taliban arose precisely because Afghanistan was already disfunctional.

I have to go with the old quote: Democracy is the worst form of government ever created except for every other form besides it...

Sadly it seems to be regressing towards the others.

 

[juvenissun]

I've read Judges, admittedly a while back so my memory of its contents is pretty useless. But accepting what you say is true since I'm sure you know it pretty well, I still fail to see how that is a better system of governance.

Good question.

I have my definition of a "good" society. But that is mine.

And, that is the ultimate question which would find no answer in humanism.

 

[Mr Clean]

Human rights isn't a reflection of the effectiveness or efficiency of government but of the values it's trying to implement. As to the others, (a) they mostly made improvement over what was there when they assumed power and (b) they did so on a microscopic budget since they had taken over a country with no economy. During NATO's involvement the US was spending more each day in Afghanistan than the Taliban had available to spend each year.

The Taliban didn't make Afghanistan disfunctional - the Taliban arose precisely because Afghanistan was already disfunctional.

Sadly it seems to be regressing towards the others.

Afghanistan certainly was dysfunctional before the Taliban, I can't argue that, but they still made it worse.

Human rights actually is a measure of efficiency, because it affects so many other things. The well-being and happiness of the population has a tremendous affect on everything else. There are plenty of economic studies that show how GDP is affected by the mood of the population. Some of the smartest people they had were women, who became nothing more than burka-wearing arm candy once the rule of Islam was installed.

 

[Mr Clean]

Good question.

I have my definition of a "good" society. But that is mine.

And, that is the ultimate question which would find no answer in humanism.

I'm sure we won't agree on that then. Humanism is the only one rooted in reality.

 

[juvenissun]

I'm sure we won't agree on that then. Humanism is the only one rooted in reality.

All religions also have their realistic sides. How do you tell which reality is "better"?

 

[bhsmte]

I'm sure we won't agree on that then. Humanism is the only one rooted in reality.

One thing about reality, it isn't going away anytime soon, so if one can acknowledge and deal with reality, that would be a good thing.

The human mind though, can be taught to recreate one's own reality if their is a psychological need to and we have all seen what that looks like.

 

[Seipai]

All religions also have their realistic sides. How do you tell which reality is "better"?

Hmm, good question. We know that many religions have their mythical sides too. For example the first two books of the Christian Bible have been shown to be myth. Of course that does not debunk the central message of Christianity. There are those who mistakenly do believe that and then to make matters even worse they believe the myth.

I am not educated enough about other religious beliefs to comment on which parts are clearly myth. Of course it has to be admitted that almost all, if not all, creation stories are a myth.

 

[bhsmte]

All religions also have their realistic sides. How do you tell which reality is "better"?

When it comes to religion, it is usually the one that suits the individuals needs the best. Hence, all the various denominations of Christianity.

 

[ebia]

Afghanistan certainly was dysfunctional before the Taliban, I can't argue that, but they still made it worse.

In terms of lawlessness, infrastructure, etc, it's clear that they made things better.

Human rights actually is a measure of efficiency, because it affects so many other things. The well-being and happiness of the population has a tremendous affect on everything else. There are plenty of economic studies that show how GDP is affected by the mood of the population. Some of the smartest people they had were women, who became nothing more than burka-wearing arm candy once the rule of Islam was installed.

It seems pretty clear that you don't realise how disfunctional Afghanistan was at the time. Everything was grinding to a halt as competeting warlords and bandits behaved as they pleased. There was no rule of law in most of the country. It would also be a misconception to think of all of Afghanistan as having been as liberal as Kabul. That's precisely why the Taliban were successful - because the general population (at least in the Pastun south) preferred any law to the complete lawlessness that preceeded it.

Don't get me wrong - I don't approve of the Taliban. Many of my friends are Hazara. But we need get beyond the way the story has been told by western politicians and media to understand the movements success if it's ever going to be challenged.

 

[Mr Clean]

All religions also have their realistic sides. How do you tell which reality is "better"?

I agree that the vast majority of religions have their realistic sides, but not at the core. At the core they are based on the existence of a deity, and the whims of that deity matter the most. Since I know of no evidence that shows any religion or god to be real, I can only go with the other options available, which to me is the humanistic ones.

 

[Mr Clean]

One thing about reality, it isn't going away anytime soon, so if one can acknowledge and deal with reality, that would be a good thing.

The human mind though, can be taught to recreate one's own reality if their is a psychological need to and we have all seen what that looks like.

Very true.

 

[Mr Clean]

It seems pretty clear that you don't realise how disfunctional Afghanistan was at the time. Everything was grinding to a halt as competeting warlords and bandits behaved as they pleased. There was no rule of law in most of the country. It would also be a misconception to think of all of Afghanistan as having been as liberal as Kabul. That's precisely why the Taliban were successful - because the general population (at least in the Pastun south) preferred any law to the complete lawlessness that preceeded it.

Don't get me wrong - I don't approve of the Taliban. Many of my friends are Hazara. But we need get beyond the way the story has been told by western politicians and media to understand the movements success if it's ever going to be challenged.

Perhaps I don't realize. I've read quite a lot about it though, and don't think of myself as ignorant on the matter either. As a civil engineer I've read about the schools and hospitals they destroyed, the roads and bridges they tore out if they led to anything "unholy", and so forth. In the end we both agree they weren't great either way....

 

[juvenissun]

Hmm, good question. We know that many religions have their mythical sides too. For example the first two books of the Christian Bible have been shown to be myth. Of course that does not debunk the central message of Christianity. There are those who mistakenly do believe that and then to make matters even worse they believe the myth.

I am not educated enough about other religious beliefs to comment on which parts are clearly myth. Of course it has to be admitted that almost all, if not all, creation stories are a myth.

Genesis 1 and 2 are NOT myth. If they were, it WOULD debunk Christianity.

 

[Sayre]

Genesis 1 and 2 are NOT myth. If they were, it WOULD debunk Christianity.

Nope. Jesus still rise from the dead in the NT. Nothing that happens in Genesis, taken allegorically, is problematic for the gospel.