Antiochus: the Temple: 70 A.D.

[PhillipLaSpino]

There are several verses I would like you to read carefully and to understand the implications they have had on the Jews, and the land.

Seven hundred years before Jesus birth, God said to the Jews,

Isa.1:11, “For what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? – I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight NOT in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs or he goats. When you come to appear before me; who has required this at your hand, to tread (trample) my courts?”

Amos 5:22, “Though you (the Jews) offer me burnt offerings and your meat (mean) offerings, I will not accept them.”

Matt.3:10, John the Baptist said to the Pharisees and Sadducees, “And NOW also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which brings not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire.”

Matt.23:38, Jesus said to the Scribes and Pharisees, “Behold, your house is left unto desolate.” Desolate is used in the sense of deserted, laid waste.

The word house is used in a wider sense, it means your (the Jews) place of habitation; that their cities and country were going to be laid waste and deserted by God, this beginning in 29 A.D.

Matt.27:51, when Jesus died it is written, “The veil of the temple was rent in twain (torn in two) from the top to the bottom.”

The veil that hung between the “holy place” and the holy of holies, was thick and made to shut all access to God’s presence to the inner room. No-one was allowed to enter the Holy of Holies, not even the High Priest except once each year to make expiation for the sins of the people, and only with the blood of atonement in his hands. The blood would than be sprinkled “upon and before the mercy-seat seven times.”

Before the veil was torn it was death to go in, now it’s death to stay out.

What does the tearing in two of the veil mean? It was a message loud and clear to a fallen people, fallen from the grace and the blessing of God. From the moment the veil was torn in two, the old system of worship had been done away with. Also the way for the Gentiles has been opened, they being made coheirs of God's blessings. And because the Jews rejected and killed their Messiah, they trapped themselves in the Old.

Here is my question to all who teach these things concerning Antiochus Epiphanes, and the destruction of the Temple by the Roman’s in 70 A.D. The later is considered by many to be the benchmark that concludes Daniel’s prophesy of 70 years.

But let’s begin with Antiochus Epiphanes who entered into the Holy of Holies and accompanied by the corrupt high priest Menelaus, carried off the vessels of the holy place. Later the Temple was desecrated by him; and the observance of the law by the Jews was forbidden by him. He set up, see 1 Macc.1:54, what is called by the Jews, ”the abomination of desolation (an idol altar) on the altar.” The following day, an offering was made to Jupiter Olympius.

Again, let’s look at what both Isaiah and Amos had to say well before Antiochus came into the picture.

Isa.1:11, “For what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? – I am full of the burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight NOT in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs or he goats. When you come to appear before me; who has required this at your hand, to tread (trample) my courts?”

Amos 5:22, “Though you (the Jews) offer me burnt offerings and your meat (mean) offerings, I will not accept them.”

Because God loves all men, Antiochus's actions must have sadened God, but he will be judged for those actions. But concerning the Jews He no longer showed himself in the Holy of Holies. In the days of Antiochus, God had not spoken to the Jews for several hundred years; He had washed His hands of them, of their offerings; sacrifices, music; customs, and laws, see Amos and Isaiah.

Therefore, Antiochus’s actions were no more than a blip on the radar screen concerning what the future held for the Jews. Before Antiochus's action, the Jews had already desecrated the Temple by offering blemished sacrifices, made by those not of the tribe of Levi; it had no mercy seat for the sprinkling of blood; no Ark of the Covenant; no eternal flame, etc;

Now let's look at the Roman destruction of the Temple. Three questions come to mind;

1. What did the Temple and their sacrifices mean to the Jews from Christ’s death to 70 A.D.? Answer, “everything!”

2. What did the Temple and the sacrifices mean to God in 70 A.D.? Let’s let Jesus answer that question, “Behold, your house is left unto desolate.” So the answer would be, nothing!”

3. So who was offended by the destruction of the Temple, the fallen Jews, or God? Answer, “the Jews!

Why, because Jesus had prophesied the Temple and all the buildings would be destroyed Matt.24:2. I believe this was God's will and He used the Roman armies to accomplish His will,. The Temple was the one thing the Jews held closest to their heart. God stripped them naked, and now turned them over to the nations for their unbelief and their actions against His beloved Son.

Again, this action by the Roman’s was nothing but a small dot on a very long road map into the future. For the above reasons, I do not believe the 70th week of Daniel was ended at the destruction of the Temple. This was only the beginning of a Judgment God pronounced on this people and this nation, and the 70th week, the 7 years of tribulation await them in the future.

Now if you want to discuss this, stay civil, and let’s discuss one point at a time.

Phil LaSpino

 

[Douggg]

Phil, I would say that the temple is still important to God in that it, here on earth, represents His Sovereignty. The cross, His Grace, was outside of the temple where the animal sacrifices were made.

Ezekiel 28: (2Thessalonians2:4)

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

 

[gospelfer]

Generally agree, though I think your statements are too extreme -- an hence rather difficult to support. Jesus wept over Jerusalem, was zealous for the purity of his father's house, and Jesus had so much support amongst the populace that the rulers were frequently afraid to go after him. None of this prevents you from being correct in your general description of prophesized history. God eventually holds a nation responsible its leaders' actions.

I'm new here, and I've read a couple of your other posts and was stunned to see that you had discovered that the Dome of the Rock is the AoD. You are the only other person I've been able to discover who has figured that out. WTG!

Your interpretation of Dan 9, is problematic. If we float 70th heptad forward, verses 24-27 explode from internal contradiction. I see no honest escape from this detonation -- though there is a simple, rational solution to this difficulty.

As for the future, yes, Israel is about to be destroyed -- it is part of the prelude to the Messianic era. But I base this upon other prophecy (Zeph 1, Micah 4, Mal 3-4, Jer 30, etc, etc), not Daniel 9.

 

[PhillipLaSpino]

Dougg, you wrote, "Phil, I would say that the temple is still important to God in that it, here on earth, represents His Sovereignty. The cross, His Grace, was outside of the temple where the animal sacrifices were made."

Phil replies, "I have a question for you because I'm interested in how you have come to the above concludion.

How have you concluded that here on earth represents Jesus Sovereignty?

The Lord at this present time is at the right hand of his Father. Satan is said to be the prince and sovereign over the earth. Satan's comments to Jesus while in the wilderness give us this information. When he took the Lord on a high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world he said to him, "All these things will I give you, if you will fall down and worship me." Jesus never said to him, "No, there not yours to give," there was no rebuke concerning Satan's comment of ownership.

God's grace has nothing to do with the Temple or the area of the Temple, not to the body of Christ it doesn't. The eternal sacrifice (Jesus) has risen and been received by the Father, our blessing come from heaven above through His Holy Spirit, and that Spirit dwells in each and every believer.

Yout thoughts,


Gospelfer, thanks for your comments. I would like to continue with your thinking on what you said concerning Dan.9:24-27. I see you like to use abbreviations; problem; sometimes don't know what you mean, "Old school, you no my type." Go to the Tread in question and we can continue the discussion, I'm always open to new, and/or corrective ideas, that is, if they are correct."

Phil

 

[Douggg]

Dougg, you wrote, "Phil, I would say that the temple is still important to God in that it, here on earth, represents His Sovereignty. The cross, His Grace, was outside of the temple where the animal sacrifices were made."

Phil replies, "I have a question for you because I'm interested in how you have come to the above concludion.

How have you concluded that here on earth represents Jesus Sovereignty?

Phil, you changed it around from what I wrote. I wrote God, although certainly Jesus is God. Jesus is God after he entered this world to become a man (not Adam-man, but the second man).

The Temple was the place which represented God's presence in this world, and his Sovereintry. It has that significance attached to it. Jesus referred to the temple as his Father's house.

The Lord at this present time is at the right hand of his Father. Satan is said to be the prince and sovereign over the earth. Satan's comments to Jesus while in the wilderness give us this information. When he took the Lord on a high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world he said to him, "All these things will I give you, if you will fall down and worship me." Jesus never said to him, "No, there not yours to give," there was no rebuke concerning Satan's comment of ownership.

The flip side of your argument, Jesus did not say that they were Satan's to give, either.

God's grace has nothing to do with the Temple or the area of the Temple, not to the body of Christ it doesn't. The eternal sacrifice (Jesus) has risen and been received by the Father, our blessing come from heaven above through His Holy Spirit, and that Spirit dwells in each and every believer.

Yout thoughts,

The stone temple never was considered Jesus's house. But His Father's house. Jesus himself recognized that the Father was greater than He (coming forth from the Father and not the reverse) and did as the Father says. So the temple represents the Father's Sovereignty. And that I don't see how it has changed.

Since we are saved by grace and grace was found not in the temple, but on the cross - in Jesus. It is not a salvation issue regarding the temple, but a Sovereignty issue of why God would care about someone going into the temple and claiming to be God.

 

[PhillipLaSpino]

Dougg, you wrote "Jesus is God after he entered this world to become a man (not Adam-man, but the second man)."

Phil replies, "I hope this is a typing error, if not, we need to have a long talk on who Jesus was/is/will always be.

His being is from all eternity past, into all eternity future. His birth into this world as a child was but a show of our Creator's humility and love for us, this as he stepped down from His throne, his place in heaven into this mess man-kind has made for himself. He veiled with flesh that glory, giving us that 2ed chance to have him be once more our God, our Lord, our Saviour.

If it's not a typing error, you and I are a million miles apart on our view of the Bible and Jesus Christ, who is, THE Creator, and who is, THE Almighty." Note difinitive article (THE.)

Jesus Christ the Creator of all that is visible and that which is invisible, to whom all the glory of the Creation belongs, and all this --- to the glory of His Father in heaven. Oh, by the way, THE Holy Spirit that has been sent to us by both the Father and the Son is He who will guide us back into the arms of our eternal God.

P.S. If what you wrote is a typing error, sorry for the sermon.

Phil

 

[Douggg]

Dougg, you wrote "Jesus is God after he entered this world to become a man (not Adam-man, but the second man)."

Phil replies, "I hope this is a typing error, if not, we need to have a long talk on who Jesus was/is/will always be.

His being is from all eternity past, into all eternity future. His birth into this world as a child was but a show of our Creator's humility and love for us, this as he stepped down from His throne, his place in heaven into this mess man-kind has made for himself. He veiled with flesh that glory, giving us that 2ed chance to have him be once more our God, our Lord, our Saviour.

If it's not a typing error, you and I are a million miles apart on our view of the Bible and Jesus Christ, who is, THE Creator, and who is, THE Almighty." Note difinitive article (THE.)

Jesus Christ the Creator of all that is visible and that which is invisible, to whom all the glory of the Creation belongs, and all this --- to the glory of His Father in heaven. Oh, by the way, THE Holy Spirit that has been sent to us by both the Father and the Son is He who will guide us back into the arms of our eternal God.

P.S. If what you wrote is a typing error, sorry for the sermon.

Phil

Phil, do you think that before there was anything, that there existed a man named Jesus? Jesus is the Lord from heaven, who entered this world to become flesh, the second Adam.

1Corinthians2:15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

The Lord did not exist as a man before entering this world to become flesh, the second man.

Before the creation of anything, God came forth from Himself, and created all there is. The Godhead is God in His fullness which cannot be explained or known except by God Himself. God as perceptible to His Creation is the Lord. And that is who entered this world to be born the baby of Mary, Jesus. Jesus is God. But if you think there was a man in heaven who entered this world, you would be wrong.

 

[PhillipLaSpino]

Douggg, you asked me, "Phil, do you think that before there was anything, that there existed a man named Jesus?"

Phil replies, "I think what you're asking me is, "did this person; this being we call Jesus exist before the Creation?"

yes or no, I want to make sure I understand your question.

Phil

 

[parousia70]

I'm new here, and I've read a couple of your other posts and was stunned to see that you had discovered that the Dome of the Rock is the AoD. You are the only other person I've been able to discover who has figured that out. WTG!

How could the Dome of the rock be the AoD when Jesus told his disciples directly that THEY would see it?

The Dome of the Rock wasn't even built until 600 years after the last apostle had died.

 

[Douggg]

Douggg, you asked me, "Phil, do you think that before there was anything, that there existed a man named Jesus?"

Phil replies, "I think what you're asking me is, "did this person; this being we call Jesus exist before the Creation?"

yes or no, I want to make sure I understand your question.

Phil

No, I am not asking about the person, I know who Jesus is. But about a man existing prior to creation.

A distinction has to be made that Jesus the man was the son the Mary. The Lord who entered this world through Mary is the eternal everlasting God who created everything. He became flesh. He became Jesus.

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[PhillipLaSpino]

Parousia, let me answer the question as I understand it. I believe you're speaking of Matt.24:34, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

The events Matthew discribes are all well into the future, and the generation of Jews that are alive in that future generation will witness all that the Lord had just spoken of.

In the Greek the word generation is used in several ways, and in Matt.24 He speaks of the men of "that generation or age," meaning those who are alive at that time = (future.)

This same word generation will also speak of the present generation. Example, Jesus in Matt.11:16 is speaking of that present generation. In Matt.12:39 it speaks of past generations: also future generations as in Matt.24:34, Matt.12:41, "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it." Ver.42, "The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation,"

Also Phil.2:15 speaks of future perverse nation (nations). Nation is the same Greek word as generation.

Also see for past generations, Heb.3:10. For more future generation see Luke 1:48. Also in the O.T. see Ps.11:7 "this generation for ever."

Phil

 

[parousia70]

Parousia, let me answer the question as I understand it. I believe you're speaking of Matt.24:34, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Nope. I'm talking about Matt 24:15 and Mark 13:14

Where Jesus, speaking to his disciples DIRECTLY, says:

24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place”


13:14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not”

Notice He doesn't say "if you see", He clearly says to THEM, "WHEN you see"

Any definition or interpretation of the word "you" in these verses that OMITS the disciples He was directly addressing, must be rejected.

 

[PhillipLaSpino]

Matt.24:15, answers to verses 11- 14. "many false prophets" -- iniquity shall abound, love shall grow cold" "the gospel of the kingdom SHALL be preached in all the world ---- "When you therefore (therefore meaning for the above reasons) shall (no doubt) see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, STAND in the Holy Place.

Let's also look at Mark 13: 14, "When ye shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel STANDING where it ought not ---."

When the Roman's came in 70 A.D. they destroyed the Temple so "not one stone lay upon another." So can you tell me what has stood ON THIS HOLY PLACE since? It's the Dome of the Rock, and it does not matter if it were built in 71 A.D. or last year, it's still and abomination. Is this Dome the abomination of desolation, or will it be taken down and another more abominable set up in it's place????????? But whatever it may be, it's still in the future.

Phil

 

[parousia70]

Jesus said They WOULD see it.
Phil Says They DIDN'T.

Sorry Phil, given those two choices on who to believe, I'm going to have to side with Jesus on this one.

 

[PhillipLaSpino]

Parousia, sorry it took so long to reply, had a few things to do yesterday. So you're concerned with the "you" in that verse, correct.

Matt.24:15, Jesus said to his disciples, (Peter, Andrew, James and John) "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet stand in the holy place, WHOSO reads, let him understand."

First, "YE" is always used in the plural of the 2ed person, not the singular.

Now, Andrew is never mentioed after Acts 1:13, Tradition has it, that he was martyred in in Achaia by crucificition before the destruction of the Temple.

Peter died in the reign of Nero, and Nero died in 68 A.D. before the destrucion of the Temple.

James died in 44 A.D. well before the destruction of the Temple.

This leaves us with John who died well after the temple was destroyed. So if what you claim to be true, than John is the "Ye" spoken of in Matt.24:15; but he alone cannot answer to the plural "ye."

Now if you change the "Ye" to "You" you would be correct in our modern tongue because "You" can be used in both the singular and plural. But in my K.J.B. the 47 scholars used "Ye." They could have used "you", but did not because it would have meant something different than "ye".

Now Daniel was speaking of the end time, the tribulation, so in the context of what Jesus said, his words have to fall in line with the prophesy of Daniel, and if this is correct, than verses 15 and 21 do not answer to 70 A.D., but to a future date.

So you need to explain to me ver.21, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE."

So if what you say is true, than 70 A.D. has to be the tribulation period, and that is not correct!

Concerning ver.21; history tells us there have been many more tribulations in this (world) since the destruction of the Temple. The bubonic plague whiped out a third of Europe. World War 1, and World War 2, millions and millions died, Cambodia 1/3 of the population was wiped out etc. So how do you answer Jesus words, "Nor ever shall be."

The way I look at the verse in Matt.24:15 is, Jesus was speaking to the disciples, whose Father was Abraham, who is the father of the Jews living to this day. The (whoso) at the end of verse 15 tells us the "YE" extends well beyond the 4 disciples and into the future tribulation.

Phil

 

[PhillipLaSpino]

The kingdom of God before the creation of the world was/is a spirit world with spirit creatures. Many creatures in heaven are described to us, all having different shapes and characteristics. What was Jesus/Jehovah's, our Creators form or shape, who knows; but if I had to guess,

In Gen.1:26, God said, "Let us make man in our image, and after our likeness." Image means "shadowed form". So what image does a shadow form on the ground? Answer it's own image or shape.

So if I had to answer the question, "What was our Creator's shape, meaning his spirit form before the creation, it has to be that of a man! If this is true, than all Jesus did was cloak His spirit form with flesh, by way of Mary, and change his name or title from Jehovah to Joshua, or the English Jesus.

Pretty simple when you reason it out, don't you think?

Phil

 

[Interplanner]

"nor shall ever be" is answered literarily, Phil. Jesus had all kinds of exagerations and hyperboles. He was speaking in terms of Israel's history. He was also using Daniel's expressions. Mt24A is about 1st century Judea.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Job8]

Phillip,

I don't think one should characterize either Antiochus Epiphanes or the Roman destruction of the Temple as "blips". These were very significant events. But to respond to your OP:

1. The idolatry of the Jews should not be put on the same level as the desecration of the Temple by Gentiles. The first was sin, the second was judgment. God allowed the Temple to be destroyed by Nebuchednezzar as a judgment. He also allowed it to be desecrated by Antiochus and again destoryed by the Romans as a judgment against Israel. We need to distinguish between things which differ.

2. Antiochus may be taken as a "type" of the Antichrist but with some serious reservations. If one examines his actions closely, they hardly come up to the level of evil and blasphemy which will go forth from the Antichrist.

3. The destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem did not mark the end of Daniel's 70th week. If we read Daniel 9:25,26 the crucifixion of Christ (Messiah shall be cut off) marked the end of the 69th week.

4. Christ spoke specifically of the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet (Mt 24:15) but He also linked it to the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:21). Indeed, the first would be the cause of the second, since the abomination (image of Antichrist) would result in desolations produced by God's wrath against all the blasphemy.

5. Since the Great Tribulation is future (nothing in world history indicates that cosmic, catacylsmic, and catastrophic events in the heavens and earth of that magnitude have ever occurred), then it follows that Daniel's 70th week is yet future.

6. When all the prophecies are harmonized, Satan will control the whole world through the Antichrist for 3 1/2 years following which the Great Tribulation will devastate the earth for another 3 1/2 years. Thus Daniel's 70th week will be completed in the future.

 

[Job8]

"nor shall ever be" is answered literarily, Phil. Jesus had all kinds of exagerations and hyperboles. He was speaking in terms of Israel's history. He was also using Daniel's expressions. Mt24A is about 1st century Judea.

The Great Tribulation is unlike any event in history. It corresponds to the Day of the Lord. So before one goes off on the wrong path, one should examine all the prophecies concerning the Day of the Lord and tie them in with all the prophecies concerning th Great Tribulation.

The truth is (if one wishes to face the truth and abandon false notions) that the sun has never become black, the moon has never become "as blood" (regardless of all this talk about "blood moons"), the stars of heaven have never fallen to the earth, the heaven has never "departed as a scroll", and every mountain and island has not been moved out of its place (Rev 6:13,14).