Antiochus: the Temple: 70 A.D.

[Interplanner]

...unless none of that is quite as literal as you are.

Have you ever considered what would actually happen to have any "star" as we know them come within 100K of the earth? It's no-atom's-land.

God needed to wrap up affairs with Israel. He wanted them to take up the mission of his Messiah or face Dt 32 if they did not. Most of them got Dt 32. That's the DofJ.

The rest of NT eschatology is worldwide and is one event: the day of judgement, no matter what it is called.

At the beginning the apostles had reasons to think it was together or tightly sequenced. We now know that the Master is indeed "a long time coming" (Mk 13). They had every reason to think the end of the world and universal judgement was to take place right after the DofJ.

The speculation today about several events spread out over several years is pretty worthless and, in case you didn't notice, it takes away the set-up for the good news of the Gospel; that God has already come in Christ and already executed the day of judgement, so that we could be justified from our sins, Rom 3:21+ (the arrival of the righteousness of God).

 

[Job8]

Since we are saved by grace and grace was found not in the temple, but on the cross - in Jesus. It is not a salvation issue regarding the temple, but a Sovereignty issue of why God would care about someone going into the temple and claiming to be God.

Douggg:

1. If you study the Tabernacle and the Temple carefully grace was indeed found in the Temple (1 Kgs 9:1-3), but only because God saw those animal sacrifices as shadows of the one eternal sacrifice for sin for ever by Christ -- the Lamb of God on the Cross (1 Pet 1:18-20).

2. Nowhere is Scripture will you find that the Temple was built to display God's sovereignty. Christ said that it was "the house of prayer" (Lk 19:45-48) and Solomon's prayer confirmed that it was the house of prayer.

3. God cares about the Temple just as He cares about Jerusalem and Israel. Christ wept over Jerusalem (Lk 19:41-44), so once again, you should be looking closely at Scripture and not jumping to conclusions without a scriptural basis. God will most definitely care when the Antichrist blasphemes Him and tries to deceive the world that he is God. That is precisely why God will send the Great Tribulation -- the Day of the LORD -- upon this earth.

 

[Job8]

...unless none of that is quite as literal as you are. quote]

And why would you assume that "none of that is literal"? Have you studied the Day of the Lord?

 

[Interplanner]

Where the vultures gather... was not about vultures.

What happens when a star comes within 100K miles of the earth?

Relative to Israel, however, there is a sense in which all of those things happened, either in the Gospel or the DofJ, as we can see from how Acts 2 uses the passage.

 

[Douggg]

Douggg:

1. If you study the Tabernacle and the Temple carefully grace was indeed found in the Temple (1 Kgs 9:1-3), but only because God saw those animal sacrifices as shadows of the one eternal sacrifice for sin for ever by Christ -- the Lamb of God on the Cross (1 Pet 1:18-20).

2. Nowhere is Scripture will you find that the Temple was built to display God's sovereignty. Christ said that it was "the house of prayer" (Lk 19:45-48) and Solomon's prayer confirmed that it was the house of prayer.

3. God cares about the Temple just as He cares about Jerusalem and Israel. Christ wept over Jerusalem (Lk 19:41-44), so once again, you should be looking closely at Scripture and not jumping to conclusions without a scriptural basis. God will most definitely care when the Antichrist blasphemes Him and tries to deceive the world that he is God. That is precisely why God will send the Great Tribulation -- the Day of the LORD -- upon this earth.

No-one was ever saved by the animal sacrifices.

Jesus whipped the money changers when they had turned the temple into a den of thieves. Prayer to God is because God is sovereign.

The Antichrist will not only claim to be God at some point, but that he procllaims it by going into the temple and sitting, which God does care because in Ezekiel 28:1-10, He has the revealed man of sin killed for it.

you should be looking closely at Scripture and not jumping to conclusions without a scriptural basis.

I grow weary of this sort of comment.....

 

[PhillipLaSpino]

Job8, good morning! Let me respond to each of your comments.

Yor wrote, "I don't think one should characterize either Antiochus Epiphanes or the Roman destruction of the Temple as "blips". These were very significant events. But to respond to your OP:"

Phil replies, "Antiochus; hmmm were his actions evil, of course it was! And was the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.; was that an act of evil, sure it was! But, were these acts ordered by God?

My question is, "What was God's purpose for allowing these things to occure? I think of the story in Mark 14:52, when the young man having a linen cloth cast about his naked body ran up to the Lord, and laid hold of Him as he was being led away by the chief priests and scribes. Suddenly the man was stripped of his linen cloth and fled away naked. Always thought this was the rich man that told Jesus He had fulfilled all the law, but when told to give up all he had, he walked away, now He had been exposed.

Like this guy, God was going to strip the Jews completely naked, exposing them for who and what they truly were/are in His sight. Their Temple was the last garment they had to hide their nakedness, the one thing that still united them; but now God had that destroyed, now they had nothing left. This is why I believe both events, the first was a warning shot across their bow, the second was the sinking of their ship.

You wrote, "The idolatry of the Jews should not be put on the same level as the desecration of the Temple by Gentiles. The first was sin, the second was judgment. God allowed the Temple to be destroyed by Nebuchednezzar as a judgment. He also allowed it to be desecrated by Antiochus and again destoryed by the Romans as a judgment against Israel. We need to distinguish between things which differ."

Phil "I am in full agreement with you."

You wrote, "Antiochus may be taken as a "type" of the Antichrist but with some serious reservations. If one examines his actions closely, they hardly come up to the level of evil and blasphemy which will go forth from the Antichrist."

Phil replies, "Again I agree."

You wrote, "The destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem did not mark the end of Daniel's 70th week. If we read Daniel 9:25,26 the crucifixion of Christ (Messiah shall be cut off) marked the end of the 69th week."

Phil replies, "Again I agree."

You wrote, "Christ spoke specifically of the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet (Mt 24:15) but He also linked it to the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:21). Indeed, the first would be the cause of the second, since the abomination (image of Antichrist) would result in desolations produced by God's wrath against all the blasphemy."

Phil replies, "I agree."

You wrote, "Since the Great Tribulation is future (nothing in world history indicates that cosmic, catacylsmic, and catastrophic events in the heavens and earth of that magnitude have ever occurred), then it follows that Daniel's 70th week is yet future."

Phil replies, "Agreed."

Your wrote, "When all the prophecies are harmonized, Satan will control the whole world through the Antichrist for 3 1/2 years following which the Great Tribulation will devastate the earth for another 3 1/2 years. Thus Daniel's 70th week will be completed in the future. __________________"

Phil replies, "I agree. I told you I like the way you think!"

Phil

 

[Rev20]

I don't think one should characterize either Antiochus Epiphanes or the Roman destruction of the Temple as "blips". These were very significant events. But to respond to your OP:

1. The idolatry of the Jews should not be put on the same level as the desecration of the Temple by Gentiles. The first was sin, the second was judgment. God allowed the Temple to be destroyed by Nebuchednezzar as a judgment. He also allowed it to be desecrated by Antiochus and again destoryed by the Romans as a judgment against Israel. We need to distinguish between things which differ.

2. Antiochus may be taken as a "type" of the Antichrist but with some serious reservations. If one examines his actions closely, they hardly come up to the level of evil and blasphemy which will go forth from the Antichrist.

,

Job8, I am confused. Antiochus was a very dangerous and evil creature; and combined with his allies, including the self-serving Jews of his days, caused all sorts of havoc. Tens of thousands of Jews--those who would not submit to his demands--were massacred or sold into slavery. You can read all about his evil in Ezekiel 38 and 39, in Daniel, and in the books of the Maccabees.

Where can I find anything in the scripture about a so-called Antichrist?
.

3. The destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem did not mark the end of Daniel's 70th week. If we read Daniel 9:25,26 the crucifixion of Christ (Messiah shall be cut off) marked the end of the 69th week.

No. Christ did not arrive until the end of the 69th week, or the beginning of the 70th week, depending on how you want to phrase it:

". . . from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks.. . " --Dan 9:25"​

That much is crystal-clear. Christ was killed (cut-off out of the land of the living) about 3.5 years later, or half-way through the 70th week, thereby becoming the ultimate and final sacrifice. At that time the veil of the temple was rent because it was no longer needed:

"… in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease…" --Dan 9:27"​

During his ministry Christ confirmed the covenant with the (faithful) children of Israel:

". . . Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision [children of Israel] for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [the covenant] made unto the fathers:" -- Rom 15:8​

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." -- John 8:56​

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham," -- Luke 1:68-73​

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" -- John 10:27​

"But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." -- Matt 15:24​

His disciples confirmed the covenant for the remainder of the week, which concluded when the first Gentile was allowed into the Commonwealth of Israel:

"He that receiveth [my disciples] receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me." -- Matt 10:40​

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." -- Matt 10:5-6​

"Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent [Jesus] to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." -- Acts 3:25-26​

"And God spake on this wise, That [Abraham's] seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years. And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall [Abraham's seed, Israel] come forth, and serve me in this place. And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs." -- Acts 7:6-8​

"Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews." -- Acts 26:7​

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying," -- Rom 11:1-2​

"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." -- Jas 1:1​

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." -- 1Pet 1:1-2​

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;" -- 1Pet 2:9​

This is the promise to the faithful of Israel, from the days of old, that Peter confirmed:

"And now if ye will indeed hear my voice, and keep my covenant, ye shall be to me a peculiar people above all nations; for the whole earth is mine. And ye shall be to me a royal priesthood and a holy nation: these words shalt thou speak to the children of Israel." -- Exo 19:5-6 LXX​

Many Gentiles have hijacked that promise, and claim it as their own. But the promise, and fulfillment, was only to the few faithful and chosen children of Israel.

Remember, Christ's sheep heard his voice, and they were few. The rest were carried away by strange Gods and were destroyed from amongst the children of Israel, as prophesied, when they refused to hear Jesus:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." -- Deu 18:18-19​

"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." -- Acts 3:22-23​

So, the covenant was confirmed in the first century. But arduous students of the Bible will note that the covenant confirmation continued far longer than 7 years--for about forty years--because the Lord is longsuffering:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." -- 2Pet 3:9"​

The Gentiles have hijacked that passage, as well.

But, eventually, the days of vengeance for the blood of the prophets could be delayed no longer, and Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed, along with most of the children of Satan who controlled the Jewish people (most, but unfortunately, not all):

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." -- John 8:44​

"Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." -- Luke 11:49-51​

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." -- Luke 21:20-22"​

All that vengeance and destruction was not part of the seventy weeks of Daniel, but was decreed (determined) separately:

". . . and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." -- Dan 9:26"​

". . . and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations." -- Dan 9:26" LXX​

4. Christ spoke specifically of the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet (Mt 24:15) but He also linked it to the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:21). Indeed, the first would be the cause of the second, since the abomination (image of Antichrist) would result in desolations produced by God's wrath against all the blasphemy.

Actually, it was the arrival of the pagan Roman armies on the holy land of Israel that was the abomination "standing where it ought not." Jesus gave us a clue that is hard to miss:

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" -- Matt 24:15-16​

"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:" -- Mark 13:14​

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; " -- Luke 21:20-21​

Personally, I do not see how any student of the Bible can miss that, unless they have an agenda that circumvents (blinds) their view.

5. Since the Great Tribulation is future (nothing in world history indicates that cosmic, catacylsmic, and catastrophic events in the heavens and earth of that magnitude have ever occurred), then it follows that Daniel's 70th week is yet future.

You added words to the Holy Scripture. I do not recommend that. The great tribulation occurred during the generation of Christ and his disciples, exactly when he said it would occur:

"Verily I say unto you [My Disciples,] This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." -- Matt 24:34​

"Verily I say unto you [My Disciples,] that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." -- Mark 13:30​

"Verily I say unto you [My Disciples,] This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." -- Luke 21:32​

God, in his own Words, repeats it three times; so there will be no excuse for any false teachings or false prophesies based on the Olivet Discourse (Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21.)

6. When all the prophecies are harmonized, Satan will control the whole world through the Antichrist for 3 1/2 years following which the Great Tribulation will devastate the earth for another 3 1/2 years. Thus Daniel's 70th week will be completed in the future.

Baloney.

 

[Job8]

Baloney.

If there is anything that may be justly termed "Baloney" it is Preterism --- a Jesuit invention that was wholeheartedly swallowed by the majority of Protestants.

In view of this response it would be pointless to discuss the matter. You can hold to the Baloney of Preterism if you wish, but it is fundamentally a delusion.

 

[Rev20]

If there is anything that may be justly termed "Baloney" it is Preterism --- a Jesuit invention that was wholeheartedly swallowed by the majority of Protestants.

In view of this response it would be pointless to discuss the matter. You can hold to the Baloney of Preterism if you wish, but it is fundamentally a delusion.

Wow, what an impressive comeback! Would you care to debate my doctrine, or would you prefer to continue to cast aspersions?

I realize that is a rhetorical question since dispensationalism is not defendable. But let me set the record straight:

First, I am not a preterist. Please do not mischaracterize my doctrine in the future.

Second, Dispensationalism and modern premillennialsm (e.g., those who promote the "dual-covenant" delusion) was a 16th century invention by a Jesuit Counter-Reformer by the name of Francisco Ribera, whose doctrine was grabbed by a power-hungry psychopath named John Nelson Darby, whose minions (one of which was the convicted-felon named Cyrus Scofield) promoted in the most deceptive manner.

For the record, the Counter-Reformation movement was a vain attempt by supporters of the so-called "Roman catholic church" to smear the new Protestant movement.

 

[parousia70]

Concerning ver.21; history tells us there have been many more tribulations in this (world) since the destruction of the Temple. The bubonic plague whiped out a third of Europe. World War 1, and World War 2, millions and millions died, Cambodia 1/3 of the population was wiped out etc. So how do you answer Jesus words, "Nor ever shall be.

First of all, Body count does not = level of tribulation. That is a MYTH.
If that were true, you'd have to say that 10 people who were killed instantly suffered greater tribulation than 2 people who were slowly tortured to death over a period of months.

So you need to explain to me ver.21, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE."

With Pleasure.

AD 66-70 was the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thess 5:2-4,23; Phil 1:6,10; Heb 10:25,36-39; 1 Cor 1:7-8; 1 Cor 5:5). Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated.

That last part needs repeating:

Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated. NOT EVER.

There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God (Matt 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24).

In Contrast to AD 66-70, The devestations you mentioned such as The bubonic plague World War 1, and World War 2, Cambodia etc., had ZERO Covenental, ETERNAL Significance for Jews.

In addition, we should not overlook the common Old Testament figure of speech Jesus is utilizing in Matthew 24:21: "ever was/nor ever shall be." Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matt. 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future. Therefore, we recognize that the expression "ever was/nor ever shall be" is a common Hebraic idiom meaning "very great" or "very much." Our Lord was simply saying in Matthew 24:21 that there would be very great tribulation. St. Luke's account of this great tribulation reads as follows:

These are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (Luke 21:22-23)

Without question, Jesus promised his apostles that they would live to see Israel's great tribulation ("great distress in the land and wrath upon this people") and all those things come to pass in their generation (Matt 24:33-34; Luke 21:31-32).

 

[Codger]

Matt.27:51, when Jesus died it is written, “The veil of the temple was rent in twain (torn in two) from the top to the bottom.”

The veil that hung between the “holy place” and the holy of holies, was thick and made to shut all access to God’s presence to the inner room. No-one was allowed to enter the Holy of Holies, not even the High Priest except once each year to make expiation for the sins of the people, and only with the blood of atonement in his hands. The blood would than be sprinkled “upon and before the mercy-seat seven times.”

Before the veil was torn it was death to go in, now it’s death to stay out.

What does the tearing in two of the veil mean? It was a message loud and clear to a fallen people, fallen from the grace and the blessing of God. From the moment the veil was torn in two, the old system of worship had been done away with. Also the way for the Gentiles has been opened, they being made coheirs of God's blessings. And because the Jews rejected and killed their Messiah, they trapped themselves in the Old.

A lot of misinformation here. I suggest that you invest $30 and buy the Artscroll Mishnah Commentary. This is a set of 44 books (covers all 65 tractates) but the one that you need is Kodashim Vol 4 which contains the tractates Tamid and Middos, which are two detailed accounts of the daily operation of the Temple. The Mishnah was written between 160 and 200AD and is the foremost authority on the operation of the Temple of Herod. Some of the information posted here was “Plagiarized” from the Commentary. You will however have to learn how to read a book backwards as this is Jewish literature. Josephus has much to say also which is relevant to the Temple.

First of all the veil that was torn in two was NOT the veil between the Holy place and the Holy of Holies. That veil was a double curtain according to the Artscroll Mishnah commentary. The outer veil of the two was attached to the right wall and then tied back on the left side. Then the second veil was attached to the left wall and tied back on the right. There was a space of one temple cubit (24") between the two curtains. The priest would enter the Holy of Holies on the left side and cross walking between the two curtains and exiting on the right. The Holy of Holies was approximately a 40 foot cube. The Biblical record does not say that the Veils (plural) were torn in two. Besides if the inner Veil was torn only the officiating priests could have seen it. Jesus died in public so why wouldn't the symbol of His body be rent in public for all to see also.

The veil that was torn in two on the day of the crucifixion was the massive one that hung in front of the Holy Place. It was around eighty feet high and twenty plus feet in width (Josephus). It was very thick and heavy. In fact Josephus says that it took two-hundred priests to hang it. The day Jesus was crucified the severe earthquake caused the massive lintel to break in two that supported the veil. As it collapsed the curtain was torn in two. There was severe damage to the temple that day and the Hall of Hewn Stones was wrecked. This was the chamber where the Grand Sanhedrin met in the Temple where Jesus was condemned just hours earlier that day. Beginning on that day they had to move to other quarters.

There were others allowed into the Holy of Holies according to the Mishnah. Every seven years a maintenance crew was lowered into the Holy of Holies to clean up from a room above. They were dropped into the cubical room via eight wooden elevators by means of ropes. The elevators only opened toward the outside. The Holy Place and the Holy of Holies had walls covered with gold PLATE.

The following was “Plagiarized” mostly from the work of the late Dr Martin. Not a cut-n-paste but a summary in my words.

God gave Moses the plan for the tabernacle/Temple and told him exactly how to construct it. This tabernacle is a small scale representation of things that God created in heaven. It also contains a lot of symbolism of the work of Jesus and also of the Garden of Eden. The place that God walked with Adam and Eve in the garden is symbolic of the Holy of Holies – perfect communion with God. The Holy Place where the priests ministered is the equivalent symbolically of the Garden of Eden. The land of Eden is symbolic of the Camp of the Israelites which was a 3,000 foot radius from the Veil of the Temple. Hebrews tells us that Jesus was crucified “Without the camp” He was crucified out side of this 3,000 foot radius to the east which puts the site of the crucifixion on top of the Mount of Olives.

Once Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden two Cherubim guarded the way back into the garden. Man would someday return back again. The literal Garden of Eden was destroyed by the flood of Noah. Those who can see the massive amount of symbology in scripture can see that when the Veil was torn it meant that people could once more enter the Garden of Eden. They could once more have Fellowship with God. Now people could enter the Holy Place. But that is not all because they are also free to enter between the curtains into the Holy of Holies. This part is voluntary however. Those who enter the Holy of Holies are completely destroyed that is they are totally surrendered to God and have given up their lives for him and will walk with him no matter where he goes. There are very few who enter the Holy of Holies because it means total death to self. Those who have learned to love and those who have become humble are in reality the Bride of Christ – the masses of us mostly dwell in the Holy Place. This is the symbology of the Garden of Eden. Hebrews tells us that the Veil is symbolic of the body of Christ which was torn for us.

There was no “mercy seat” in the Temple of Herod. According to tradition Jeremiah had hidden it in a cave on Mount Nebo prior to the destruction of Solomon's Temple. The absence of the Ark was no accident as it was the time of the Messiah in Herod's day. The Ark was symbolic of God the Father. In Herod's day the only item in the Holy of Holies was the Even Shetiah stone upon which the Ark of the Covenant sat. This is where the blood was sprinkled. This stone was symbolic of Jesus. Tradition held that the Even Shetiah stone capped the fountains of the deep and to move it would allow waters to come forth. This is symbolic of the Holy Spirit. So these three elements were symbolic of the Trinity. This Even Shetiah stone was the stone “that went with them” and Paul says this rock was Jesus. It was their source of water in the desert during their 40 years of wandering.

So it seems that the main purpose of your post is to build and maintain that 2,000 year long bridge from the New Testament to the FUTURE. It is not there Philip – it doesn't exist.

 

[Job8]

So it seems that the main purpose of your post is to build and maintain that 2,000 year long bridge from the New Testament to the FUTURE. It is not there Philip – it doesn't exist.

Nothing in your post nullifies a future Temple being built, and yet again another Temple being built in the Millenium. As a matter of cold hard fact, the Jews in Israel are preparing to build a temple and resume temple sacrifices as we speak. That should give the Preterists pause, if not cause them to jettison their erroneous ideas.

And what Jewish rabbis have to say pertaining to the events in the New Testament are already tainted. The Talmud blasphemes Christ.

 

[parousia70]

As a matter of cold hard fact, the Jews in Israel are preparing to build a temple and resume temple sacrifices as we speak. That should give the Preterists pause, if not cause them to jettison their erroneous ideas.

1)Any Temple built by modern day Jewish Christ rejectors will not be "the Temple of God" that St Paul mentioned in 2 Thess 2, and therefore can not be the fulfillment of any "temple" prophesy

2)Any "Jewish priests" practicing in that temple will not be descendants of Aaron as the law of Moses commands, and therefore will not be the fulfillment any "temple" prophesy.

That should give futurists pause, if not cause them to abandon their erroneous ideas.

And what Jewish rabbis have to say pertaining to the events in the New Testament are already tainted. The Talmud blasphemes Christ.

At least we agree on something

 

[PhillipLaSpino]

Codger, you had better check out your own sources. If my information is incorrect, so also are the following:

1. Mathew Henry
2. Dr. Adam Clark ll.D. F.S.A. M.R.I.A.
3. R. Jamieson D.D.
4. A.R. Fausset
5. D. Brown D.D.
6. The Self Interpretation Bible 4 Vol. written by,
a. Porter. D.D.
b. Cookd D.D.
c. J. Brown D.D. LL.D
d. Robert
e. J. Lee D.D. LL.D
7. John F. Walvoord A.B. M.A. Th.M. D.D.
8. Roy Zuck A.B. Th.M. Th.D.

And I can list many more, so your claim that "A lot of misinformation here" is incorrect.

Phil LaSpino

 

[Codger]

Nothing in your post nullifies a future Temple being built, and yet again another Temple being built in the Millenium. As a matter of cold hard fact, the Jews in Israel are preparing to build a temple and resume temple sacrifices as we speak. That should give the Preterists pause, if not cause them to jettison their erroneous ideas.

And what Jewish rabbis have to say pertaining to the events in the New Testament are already tainted. The Talmud blasphemes Christ.

After the crucifixion - God gave Israel 40 years to repent and to come into the New Covenant (From Passover 30AD until Passover 70AD - - exactly 40 years to the day); but the majority did not. And so they were severely judged during the destruction of Israel in 66-70AD.

And so they continued after being scattered once again with the Old Covenant mentality as before. Except that God is now operating in the New Covenant. Unlike the New Covenant the Old Covenant relied heavily on many props in order to function; and when these props were destroyed or captured in 70 AD, the Old Covenant could no longer function. And it has been dead for the last 2,000 years - Just as Hebrews predicted - the Old Covenant was about to pass away - and about 5 years after it was written the Temple and the Covenant did pass away - forever. Futurists however ignore Hebrews and still believe that the Old Covenant is running commensurately with the New Covenant but they really can't say that because it is not supported by scripture. Any one who quotes Hebrews then becomes a nasty "Replacement theology" adherent.

Just look at the track record to date...
The Jews have made three attempts through history to rebuild the Temple, but were frustrated in every attempt.

A. The first attempt was during the Bar Kochba revolt in 135AD. This attempt was put down by the Emperor Hadrian. Had this revolt been successful - they would have rebuilt the Temple, the cities, and continued on as before.

B.The second attempt was in 324AD under Constantine. He gave permission and later withdrew it by cutting off the ears of the priests and craftsmen. No maimed person could work on the Temple. So the work stopped and fell to ruin.

C.The third attempt was under the emperor Julian the Apostate. This was frustrated yet again by subterranean fires, which destroyed the works early in its construction.

The Christians in general had been nagging the Jews to return to their ancient home land as far back as the time of Oliver Cromwell, who lived in the early 1600's. The present day Israel was established by intrigue, manipulation, corruption, and violence. Not by Prophesy. IMO God allowed this to happen because He is working within it to bring some of these Jews to the Cross.

How about a new temple? It will never happen because as I stated before - God is continually frustrating any movement in that direction. There is not one shred of an indication anywhere that this will happen. There is no longer any need for the old animal sacrifice system because the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus has been made. God is trying to direct, steer, herd, the Jews into the New Covenant. Hebrews indicates that it is Sin to go from the NT back to the OT.

Consider that even today God has already frustrated all the Orthodox plans for a new Temple because the place where they think it should go is under the control of the Muslims. This is the forth frustrated attempt to rebuild the Temple – is there a pattern here? Today they are calling the Fortress Antonia “The Temple Mount” – not true. The real Temple Mount was located about 600 feet from the south wall of the Fortress Antonia. It was totally destroyed just like Jesus said it would be. There is not one stone left to even mark its location. They want Antonia to be the "Temple Mount" for political reasons. The fact is they could start building a new temple tomorrow with very little effort had they not believed this lie.

The only temple that remains is the spiritual Temple that Jesus built when he arose from the dead – like he said he would do. This is Ezekiel's temple – you know the Temple that only has ONE Tamid (lamb) sacrifice a day. A single lamb. No court of women, no court of Israel, no court of gentiles – whatever could this mean?

 

[Codger]

Codger, you had better check out your own sources. If my information is incorrect, so also are the following:

1. Mathew Henry
2. Dr. Adam Clark ll.D. F.S.A. M.R.I.A.
3. R. Jamieson D.D.
4. A.R. Fausset
5. D. Brown D.D.
6. The Self Interpretation Bible 4 Vol. written by,
a. Porter. D.D.
b. Cookd D.D.
c. J. Brown D.D. LL.D
d. Robert
e. J. Lee D.D. LL.D
7. John F. Walvoord A.B. M.A. Th.M. D.D.
8. Roy Zuck A.B. Th.M. Th.D.

And I can list many more, so your claim that "A lot of misinformation here" is incorrect.

Phil LaSpino

People are more important than being doctrinally correct. Because of that I have respect for those brothers on your list. I also have respect for the lists of Inter, Ebed and others on this site who hold opposing views. With the opposing views it only makes sense that all of the people on both lists cannot be right. So this means that although all seem to be sincere in their beliefs one side or the other is sincerely wrong. I grew up in Futurism and in my early 30's had so many logic problems with it that I abandoned it. I then had to rebuild my eschatology from scratch. Built on history, scripture not speculation, denial, fantasy, and failure of all predictions in the 62 years that I have been in the Church.

So what you are saying is - because these men have all of these titles after their names is proof positive that they have scholarly and accurate interpretations of scripture. As I said these different views are in opposition to each other and all schools of thought have their own "experts" with their particular credentials.

I don't put a lot of confidence in these Phd's. What does these degrees mean anyway? All it means is that the person with a doctorate from a certain college has learned the schools teaching satisfactorily and has passed all of the tests and was granted a diploma. So I guess that this means that if you lived in Jesus' time you would be impressed by all of the learned scribes, Pharisees, Doctors of the law and the High Priest. They were the ones with credentials in the First Century. You would not be inclined to receive any thing from these uneducated, illiterate, and uncouth fishermen - the followers of Jesus - from Galilee - like Peter for example. All of the word studies in the world will mean nothing if you are already on the wrong page to start with.

This is one of the tragedies of our lazy society today. People want to have everything prepackaged, precooked, on the shelf, on sale, and ready to serve with a minimum of effort. As a result you have multi millions of people simply parroting the errant doctrines of all of these schools and Denominations. Very few are going back to the original materials - which is what I am proposing. Going to the sources of history - going to the authority of the Mishnah, the Bible itself, Josephus etc. If people did the hard work of preparing their spiritual food from scratch their meals would be quite different. Even your posts are simply in lock step with DTS. Nothing different that I can see - a bunch of speculative and errant prose.

I don't care if certain Church fathers, credible members of your list, predict the coming in our day of this all powerful boogeyman "The Antichrist" I only believe what the word says. And NOWHERE in the Epistles of John does it define such a person. He is talking about people within the Christian body of believers that were false teachers who taught that Jesus did not come in the flesh. This is the meaning of John's use of the word Antichristos - which is both singular and plural.

And I don't care what the experts claim that the "Man of Sin" is this same boogeyman (the Antichrist). Josephus' history defines him as one of the terrorists who took over the temple in 66AD. Specifically it was Eleazar Ben Simon.

We all need to learn to study the Bible on our own - dropping all of what we have been wrongly taught over the years. We need to not add or subtract from the message either. It has been said that God speaks to us by the still small voice of the Spirit; and I can tell you from experience that nothing drowns out this little voice more easily than when you think you already have the answers. When you think you have the answer you will never ask the question.