Antichrist

[Serving Zion]

God imputed Adam's sin to all of his children.

Have you seen any scripture that supports this idea?

How can you explain the obvious problem where we say God is righteous and perfect in justice, yet you think it is just to punish a person for something another person has done?

 

[2tim_215]

God imputed Adam's sin to all of his children. Adam represented us. This is the same way God imputed Jesus' righteousness to all his children.
“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made [considered] sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made [considered] righteous.” (Romans 5:19)

“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted [considered] unto him for righteousness.” (Romans 4:3)

So yes, anyone born is born to sin but babies don't (can't they're in a crib and are pretty helpless themselves) and are not prone to the ways of the world and are not yet attracted to them until they get older. That's why we must be "born again". WE must drop everything we've learned up to that point and wake up to our spiritual eye. A baby has no idea of what is spiritual and to him/her their parents are god to them until they are old enough to be taught otherwise.

 

[hedrick]

God imputed Adam's sin to all of his children. Adam represented us. This is the same way God imputed Jesus' righteousness to all his children.
“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made [considered] sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made [considered] righteous.” (Romans 5:19)

“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted [considered] unto him for righteousness.” (Romans 4:3)

Unfortunately, it says "made" not "considered." There are two plausible ways to understand the passage as written:

* Calvin's idea, that with the fall we became corrupted, and thus end up sinning.
* Paul's idea, that's this is simply how sin came into the world: "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned ..." He never quite completes the thought, but obvious what he goes on to say could be stated as "so salvation came into the world through Christ."

The problem with imputation of sin is that it's normally assumed to be a parallel of with imputation of righteousness. But Paul says it's *our* faith that is imputed as righteousness. He never says Christ's righteousness is imputed to us. People just read that into texts as you've read imputation into this one.

The issue is the meaning of righteousness. If it were moral perfection, then only Christ would have it, so imputing it to us makes sense. But righteousness is simply right standing before God. So Paul's thought is that it is faith that shows that we are right with God, and that God uses to set us right with himself. (Justification has a range of meaning including both how we recognize who are God's people and how God sets us right.)

 

[2tim_215]

"Babies" are not children of God when they are first born. It isn't until one accepts Christ that one becomes a child of God. That doesn't mean that they are not saved should they die before they get the chance accept Christ as an adult.

 

[Dave L]

Unfortunately, it says "made" not "considered." There are two plausible ways to understand the passage as written:

* Calvin's idea, that with the fall we became corrupted, and thus end up sinning.
* Paul's idea, that's this is simply how sin came into the world: "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned ..." He never quite completes the thought, but obvious what he goes on to say could be stated as "so salvation came into the world through Christ."

The problem with imputation of sin is that it's normally assumed to be a parallel of with imputation of righteousness. But Paul says it's *our* faith that is imputed as righteousness. He never says Christ's righteousness is imputed to us. People just read that into texts as you've read imputation into this one.

The issue is the meaning of righteousness. If it were moral perfection, then only Christ would have it, so imputing it to us makes sense. But righteousness is simply right standing before God. So Paul's thought is that it is faith that shows that we are right with God, and that God uses to set us right with himself. (Justification has a range of meaning including both how we recognize who are God's people and how God sets us right.)

The Greek word for Made = Constituted; considered.....

 

[Dave L]

So yes, anyone born is born to sin but babies don't (can't they're in a crib and are pretty helpless themselves) and are not prone to the ways of the world and are not yet attracted to them until they get older. That's why we must be "born again". WE must drop everything we've learned up to that point and wake up to our spiritual eye. A baby has no idea of what is spiritual and to him/her their parents are god to them until they are old enough to be taught otherwise.

Baby's first tantrum = hatred unleashed.

 

[Dave L]

Have you seen any scripture that supports this idea?

How can you explain the obvious problem where we say God is righteous and perfect in justice, yet you think it is just to punish a person for something another person has done?

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” (Romans 5:12)

 

[Serving Zion]

Baby's first tantrum = hatred unleashed.

Never without cause! (Proverbs 29:27). It sure is frustrating and I do get enraged when ignorance exalts itself over me.

If a baby was articulate as I am, it wouldn't be throwing a tantrum but sharpened words of indignation.

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” (Romans 5:12)

This doesn't support the idea of imputed sin, if you actually read what it says:

[ death comes upon all ]

because

[ all do sin ]

and

[ all do sin ]

because

[ one man allowed sin to come into the world ]

When I read this, I still see the effect of what I wrote of Romans 6:23 in post #99:

The word used to describe the recompense for sin translates as "wages" in English, and contains an implied meaning that death has been earned by the sin. I wonder what sin you believe a child commits while in womb that makes death a just reward.

So because you like to teach that a child is born spiritually dead, and the scripture you have produced twice says that spiritual death is the recompense for sin, you need to explain what sin you believe an unborn child commits while in womb that makes death a just reward.

 

[Dave L]

Never without cause! (Proverbs 29:27). It sure is frustrating and I do get enraged when ignorance exalts itself over me.

If a baby was articulate as I am, it wouldn't be throwing a tantrum but sharpened words of indignation.

This doesn't support the idea of imputed sin, if you actually read what it says:

[ death comes upon all ]

because

[ all do sin ]

and

[ all do sin ]

because

[ one man allowed sin to come into the world ]

When I read this, I still see the effect of what I wrote of Romans 6:23 in post #99:



So because you like to teach that a child is born spiritually dead, and the scripture you have produced twice says that spiritual death is the recompense for sin, you need to explain what sin you believe an unborn child commits while in womb that makes death a just reward.

“for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.” (Romans 5:19)

 

[Serving Zion]

“for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.” (Romans 5:19)

That verse is saying that many are found to be sinners, but it doesn't expose the mechanism for that finding as the preceding verse Romans 5:12 does. Romans 5:12 says that death "spreads" to all because all did [action of] sin.

I suppose at the very basis of our problem is that you and I are not reading the scriptures to be saying the same thing.

I am comfortable that I have made my case as clear as I can, so it appears that you are just not paying enough attention to the meaning of the words in the verses. You also seem to not be hearing me when I explain it to you.

So if there is nothing further I can do to clarify my position for you, I would just like to ask you for an explanation to relieve me of making assumptions:

I wonder if you can explain in your own words why you believe it is righteous and just for God to impose a penalty against all subsequent humans for a sin that Adam committed many thousands of years ago?

 

[Dave L]

That verse is saying that many are found to be sinners, but it doesn't expose the mechanism for that finding as the preceding verse Romans 5:12 does. Romans 5:12 says that death "spreads" to all because all did [action of] sin.

I suppose at the very basis of our problem is that you and I are not reading the scriptures to be saying the same thing.

I am comfortable that I have made my case as clear as I can, so it appears that you are just not paying enough attention to the meaning of the words in the verses. You also seem to not be hearing me when I explain it to you.

So if there is nothing further I can do to clarify my position for you, I would just like to ask you for an explanation to relieve me of making assumptions:

I wonder if you can explain in your own words why you believe it is righteous and just for God to impose a penalty against all subsequent humans for a sin that Adam committed many thousands of years ago?

Please notice the passages says they were made sinners = constituted sinners.

“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” (Romans 5:19)KJV

“for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.” (Romans 5:19)YLT

 

[Serving Zion]

Please notice the passages says they were made sinners = constituted sinners.

“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” (Romans 5:19)KJV

“for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.” (Romans 5:19)YLT

Yes, I did notice that, but I did already say that it doesn't expose the mechanism for that finding (ie: why it is righteous and just for God to impose that penalty).

It will be helpful if you can provide that answer.

 

[Dave L]

Yes, I did notice that, but I did already say that it doesn't expose the mechanism for that finding (ie: why it is righteous and just for God to impose that penalty).

It will be helpful if you can provide that answer.

Why is it righteous or just for you to suffer the consequences of the bad choices made by someone in office who represents you?

 

[Serving Zion]

Why is it righteous or just for you to suffer the consequences of the bad choices made by someone in office who represents you?

I don't believe it is necessarily righteous or just if it is just a consequence ("of a sequence").



(Image from: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smar...knock-down-the-empire-state-building-2232941/)

.. Could you give an example?

 

[Dave L]

I don't believe it is necessarily righteous or just if it is just a consequence ("of a sequence").



(Image from: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smar...knock-down-the-empire-state-building-2232941/)

.. Could you give an example?

Paul teaches in Romans 5 about the two Adams. Adam and Christ. When Adam sinned, God considered all of his race sinful along with him. After Christ remained righteous, God considered all his children righteous too.

Many reject the idea that Adam’s sinful act could so unavoidably affect the rest of us. It sounds unfair, and people don’t like the idea of being guilty for what someone else has done. But according to Romans 5:12–19, the sacrificial act of one person, Jesus, also can thoroughly affect the rest of us—for righteousness! He died for sin, and through him we all can be right with God. To be consistent, if we reject universal human guilt coming from what Adam did, we must also reject the availability of righteousness being fully granted to us from what Christ did. We can’t reject the first and accept the second; both are based on the same principle.

Aaron, D. (2012). Understanding Theology in 15 Minutes a Day (p. 94). Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House Publishers.

 

[Serving Zion]

When Adam sinned, God considered all of his race sinful along with him.

It is OK to teach this if you are conveying that God is righteous and just to make that judgement. It doesn't immediately appear righteous and just to consider a descendant guilty for what their ancestor has done.

I was going to ask you a third time, but then I saw enough in what you said next:

... people don’t like the idea of being guilty for what someone else has done. But ...

This is ample evidence that your teaching does not represent righteousness or justice (Jeremiah 9:24), that what you are teaching is man's invention, being of the very essence that Jesus condemned in Matthew 12:7.

So, unless you need any clarification from me, I will consider our conversation resolved and thank @bcbsr one more time for having increased my confidence to openly identify and name the antichrists in our midst as not only being the ones who oppose Christ, but who worship some substitute in His place.