Anti-semitic fear of Palestine Siege

[ralliann]

This does not change what Israel does:

Doesn't change what Hamas did, and does now.

instead of engaging Hamas on the ground, which they consider to be too tough and risk too many Israeli lives, they kill tens of thousands of civilians.

Why should they risk their lives? Hamas uses their civilians. Sad.

Hamas, who you call terrorists, simply attacks soft targets themselves to avoid a quick death. It's the exact same tactic.

They both engage in terrorism, but one does terrorism because they are resisting an exponentially more powerful foe that occupies almost all their land, and the other because they want to avoid troop losses.

How can there be peace with this rhetoric?

 

[stevevw]

The frame of the question is skewed. Support for Israel's war? Israel and Hamas are both at war.

Yes I think the narrative is all important. Its just as much a propaganda war as a military war. Its seems Islamic extremist have become pretty good at influencing the narrative in the west against Isreal. They are not stupid and know that a big part of pushing their ideology is to divide the enermy, play the victim.

They have influenced many in the west even non muslims to have sympathy for them as victims. We have seen the rise in pro Palestinian and Hamas protects which is often decending into violence now against our own people. Dividing our own people.

Though a big part of this has been cultivated by the ideologues who push the victim and oppressor thinking which has more or less prepared the way for extremists to come along and exploit that.

I mean I even heard Africa and other usually Muslim nations pushing the narrative of Isreal commiting genocide and yet not one condemnation of Hamas. So this narrative is being pushed at the highest levels and a lot of so called fair minded people and organisations are falling for it.

 

[ralliann]

Yes I think the narrative is all important. Its just as much a propaganda war as a military war. Its seems Islamic extremist have become pretty good at influencing the narrative in the west against Isreal. They are not stupid and know that a big part of pushing their ideology is to divide the enermy, play the victim.

They have influenced many in the west even non muslims to have sympathy for them as victims. We have seen the rise in pro Palestinian and Hamas protects which is often decending into violence now against our own people. Dividing our own people.

Though a big part of this has been cultivated by the ideologues who push the victim and oppressor thinking which has more or less prepared the way for extremists to come along and exploit that.

I mean I even heard Africa and other usually Muslim nations pushing the narrative of Isreal commiting genocide and yet not one condemnation of Hamas. So this narrative is being pushed at the highest levels and a lot of so called fair minded people and organisations are falling for it.

It is getting pretty obvious that Hamas is the choice of Palestinians. There really is no distinction. they rule because the people support them.

 

[stevevw]

It is getting pretty obvious that Hamas is the choice of Palestinians. There really is no distinction. they rule because the people support them.

If there were elections held in Gaza and the West Bank the people would vote for Hamas.

 

[Hans Blaster]

If there were elections held in Gaza and the West Bank the people would vote for Hamas.

An odd thing to say. The West Bank has never voted for Hamas and when was the last election in Gaza? 16 years ago, I think.

 

[ralliann]

If there were elections held in Gaza and the West Bank the people would vote for Hamas.

Well look at the support here in the USA? They support them and march in the street. There is no difference.

 

[JosephZ]

Well look at the support here in the USA? They support them and march in the street.

What you are seeing in the US are pro-Palestinian protests, not pro-Hamas protest

 

[stevevw]

Well look at the support here in the USA? They support them and march in the street. There is no difference.

Thats the crazy thing that this anti-semetism and anti US sentiment is being promoted within the West who has fought long and hard to stop this type of radical and fundementalist ideology and we should know better. How is it that Jews once again are afraid to even live in so called free nations.

We have university heads, polititians, woke corporations, even the UNWAR teaching and promoting this extreme ideology. How did this slip under the radar and infiltrate so widely and within our institutions which are suppose to be free of all this stuff.

It seems to be that democracy is failing and we have allowed ideology to dictate our policies and thinking. This is very much a leftist ideaology though made worse by the right who play political games rather than try to find middle ground.

 

[stevevw]

An odd thing to say. The West Bank has never voted for Hamas and when was the last election in Gaza? 16 years ago, I think.

The West Bank Palestinians have never voted for Hamas because they can't because the Palestinian Authority has taken control and won't allow elections for their people. But if there was a vote, if they were able to vote then they would support Hamas or any Islamist extreme group against Isreal.

The same with Gaza, there have been no elections since Hamas got in. They don't allow the people freedoms ot democracy. They shut down any talk against them and as we have seen are willing to kill their own people to push their ideology.

So the real issue at stake here is not the land but who will create a free and peaceful place for people to exist regardless of belief, race or ethnics. I don't think Hamas, the PA or any radical Islamist group is capable of creating a safe and free nation let along share the space within another nation trying to establish what the rest of the West and what Isreal has had.

Until they either learn to allow people to be free, to 'believe in other beliefs', to vote for whoever, to live equally regardless of ethnics, gender and sex then they are a threat not just to Isreal but to the free West. If Isreal goes then next it will be New York, London, Toronto and Sydney which is already beginning to happen.

I would say the avergae Palestinian if allowed to get away from the brainwashing of groups like Haamas then they would be able to establish themselves as a people and probably live in relative peace with Isreal. Though unfortunately in some ways its the nature of their belief that allows radicalization.

 

[ralliann]

What you are seeing in the US are pro-Palestinian protests, not pro-Hamas protest

Pro Palestinian protests are the same as Pro Hamas. They support what they are doing.

 

[Hans Blaster]

The West Bank Palestinians have never voted for Hamas because they can't because the Palestinian Authority has taken control and won't allow elections for their people. But if there was a vote, if they were able to vote then they would support Hamas or any Islamist extreme group against Isreal.

The same with Gaza, there have been no elections since Hamas got in. They don't allow the people freedoms ot democracy. They shut down any talk against them and as we have seen are willing to kill their own people to push their ideology.

So the real issue at stake here is not the land but who will create a free and peaceful place for people to exist regardless of belief, race or ethnics. I don't think Hamas, the PA or any radical Islamist group is capable of creating a safe and free nation let along share the space within another nation trying to establish what the rest of the West and what Isreal has had.

Until they either learn to allow people to be free, to 'believe in other beliefs', to vote for whoever, to live equally regardless of ethnics, gender and sex then they are a threat not just to Isreal but to the free West. If Isreal goes then next it will be New York, London, Toronto and Sydney which is already beginning to happen.

I would say the avergae Palestinian if allowed to get away from the brainwashing of groups like Haamas then they would be able to establish themselves as a people and probably live in relative peace with Isreal. Though unfortunately in some ways its the nature of their belief that allows radicalization.

You do then understand that we have no information abouthow they would vote because they aren't allowed to vote, right?

 

[stevevw]

You do then understand that we have no information abouthow they would vote because they aren't allowed to vote, right?

We do have information. If most Palestinians in the West Bank support attacks on Isrealis and the actions of groups like Hamas then they are going to vote for them. In fact a poll done in 2023 showed the majority would vote Hamas in.

more than half of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank would vote for Hamas’s Haniyeh over PA President Mahmoud Abbas in a presidential election.

What Is Hamas?

The Palestinian militant group struggled to govern the Gaza Strip before launching a surprise attack on Israel in 2023. Now facing Israel’s military campaign to destroy it, Hamas’s future is in doubt…

www.cfr.org

 

[Verv]

Doesn't change what Hamas did, and does now.

Why should they risk their lives? Hamas uses their civilians. Sad.

How can there be peace with this rhetoric?

To me your question actually becomes how can there be peace when the foundation of Israel is violent colonial occupation.

Because that is what it is: a group of mostly Europeans showed up and colonized Palestine just as the British were in the process of decolonizing the Middle East from Ottoman and European occupation.

The Palestinians lost the huge majority of their land, again, through decisions far beyond their control. All the most choice land went to the Israelis, and an ever receding amount of land is what they're left with. The Israelis continue to encroach from all sides while also imposing embargoes and sanctions on them that make it impossible to create a thriving economy. The Israelis have not even allowed for there to be an official Palestinian state, but instead run Israel as an apartheid state.

It was actually Nelson Mandela who stated that violence is inevitable -- here is Mandela on the topic:

"Choose peace rather than confrontation. Except in cases where we cannot get, where we cannot proceed, or we cannot move forward. Then if the only alternative is violence, we will use violence."

Middle East Eye

 

[ralliann]

To me your question actually becomes how can there be peace when the foundation of Israel is violent colonial occupation.

Violence has been on both sides. Israel was not the instigator, but responded in self defence.

Because that is what it is: a group of mostly Europeans showed up and colonized Palestine just as the British were in the process of decolonizing the Middle East from Ottoman and European occupation.

The ottomans occupied also took the land by violence.

The Palestinians lost the huge majority of their land, again, through decisions far beyond their control.

They went to war with Israel refusing peace and lost land in war. They are a violent people refusing peace with their neighbor Israel.

All the most choice land went to the Israelis, and an ever receding amount of land is what they're left with. The Israelis continue to encroach from all sides while also imposing embargoes and sanctions on them that make it impossible to create a thriving economy. The Israelis have not even allowed for there to be an official Palestinian state, but instead run Israel as an apartheid state.

It was actually Nelson Mandela who stated that violence is inevitable -- here is Mandela on the topic:

"Choose peace rather than confrontation. Except in cases where we cannot get, where we cannot proceed, or we cannot move forward. Then if the only alternative is violence, we will use violence."

Middle East Eye

The Palestinians refuse peace.

 

[stevevw]

What I think people don't realize is that whether its Hamas or the PA they don't have a good history of democracy and freedom. The Palestinians were given many chances to create a nation and they were incapable of creating one without it ending up radicalized like most other Muslim nations.

Unless the Palestinians and Muslims for that matter cannot allow democracy anf freedom, the same principles those supporting the Palestinians are crying out for, unless they can show they are willing to live this way then peace is not going to happen.

But that would mean elections and allowing anyone including Isrealis to run as representatives. Isreal allows Palestinians to hold office. So should the Palestinians including their representatives Hamas and the PA.

Otherwise just calling for a two state solution is going to be unreal even more dangerous than now because it will allow for an even bigger state to be radicalized creating a much bigger problem 10 or 20 years down the track.

In reality the Isreal and Palestinian and Hamas situation is a reflection of the same radical ideology that attacked the West before Covid. So we are seeing a repeat of the clash between to world ideologies which perhaps is coming to a head with the current situation in Gaza. Iran has been involved from the start, before all this happened and there are groups in other Muslim nations like in Lebenon, Syria, Iraq and Yemen with the Houthi attacks on any western ships.

So this is all just a continuation of radical Islam rasing its ugly head threatening freedoms and democracy after they went quite during Covid and we all remember and were fearful of how evil they were back then.

Thats why I can't understand how people are attacking Isreal and the west as colonialist and somehow commiting genocide. The west is not perfect but one thing is for sure it represents our best chance at creating a relatively free and peaceful society.

It will not be until the Palestinians but especially their representatives like Hamas and the PA who are allowed to get into power because they don't have democracy in the first place which we know ends up becoming a dictatorship. Which would happen again in any new Palestinian state unless Hamas is completely removed.

 

[Hans Blaster]

What I think people don't realize is that whether its Hamas or the PA they don't have a good history of democracy and freedom. The Palestinians were given many chances to create a nation and they were incapable of creating one without it ending up radicalized like most other Muslim nations.

Really? They were? I don't think they were given a real chance to form a democratic state. Let's review the history for a moment here. The Arab peoples of Palestine (all of the parts that fell under British mandate including all of the current State of Israel) have not really had any sovereign independence to even try. Prior to the British mandate were centuries of foreign rule from the Ottomans, Malmuks, Crusader states, and Seljuks. At the end of the British mandate, refugees from the new Israeli state flooded into both Gaza and the West Bank. Gaza was an Egyptian protectorate, occupied by Israel, occupied by Egypt, and then finally occupied by Israel. The West Bank was a Jordanian protectorate until occupied by Israel in 1967. Only after the Oslo accords is there some semblance of self-government, but the occupation has never really ended.

With this history you claim they were "given many chances to create a nation and they were incapable of creating one". That's a bit of an over statement, they've been given *one* partial chance and it hasn't worked out well.

 

[BCP1928]

What I think people don't realize is that whether its Hamas or the PA they don't have a good history of democracy and freedom. The Palestinians were given many chances to create a nation and they were incapable of creating one without it ending up radicalized like most other Muslim nations.

Unless the Palestinians and Muslims for that matter cannot allow democracy anf freedom, the same principles those supporting the Palestinians are crying out for, unless they can show they are willing to live this way then peace is not going to happen.

But that would mean elections and allowing anyone including Isrealis to run as representatives. Isreal allows Palestinians to hold office. So should the Palestinians including their representatives Hamas and the PA.

Otherwise just calling for a two state solution is going to be unreal even more dangerous than now because it will allow for an even bigger state to be radicalized creating a much bigger problem 10 or 20 years down the track.

In reality the Isreal and Palestinian and Hamas situation is a reflection of the same radical ideology that attacked the West before Covid. So we are seeing a repeat of the clash between to world ideologies which perhaps is coming to a head with the current situation in Gaza. Iran has been involved from the start, before all this happened and there are groups in other Muslim nations like in Lebenon, Syria, Iraq and Yemen with the Houthi attacks on any western ships.

So this is all just a continuation of radical Islam rasing its ugly head threatening freedoms and democracy after they went quite during Covid and we all remember and were fearful of how evil they were back then.

Thats why I can't understand how people are attacking Isreal and the west as colonialist and somehow commiting genocide. The west is not perfect but one thing is for sure it represents our best chance at creating a relatively free and peaceful society.

It will not be until the Palestinians but especially their representatives like Hamas and the PA who are allowed to get into power because they don't have democracy in the first place which we know ends up becoming a dictatorship. Which would happen again in any new Palestinian state unless Hamas is completely removed.

Yes, the Palestinians do not deserve a sovereign state because they might not govern it the way we want them to.

 

[ralliann]

Yes, the Palestinians do not deserve a sovereign state because they might not govern it the way we want them to.

I suppose wanting them to live in peace with their neighbors is too much to expect? That IMO, is unreasonable to ask and double minded in standards.

 

[BCP1928]

I suppose wanting them to live in peace with their neighbors is too much to expect?

It's certainly the most we can rightly ask of them. How they govern themselves is their own business.

 

[ralliann]

It's certainly the most we can rightly ask of them.

Palestinians refuse...even now.

How they govern themselves is their own business.

Unless Palestinians attack and kill others. There can be no peace with people that refuse it.