Anti-semitic fear of Palestine Siege

[BCP1928]

Palestinians refuse...even now.

Why not? What have they got to lose?

Unless Palestinians attack and kill others. There can be no peace with people that refuse it.

Why should they be peaceful with Israel?

 

[ralliann]

Why not? What have they got to lose?

More land, statehood. But they somewhat lost that at this point.

Why should they be peaceful with Israel?

why shouldn't they? Either way that is up to them.

 

[BCP1928]

More land, statehood. But they somewhat lost that at this point.

Right. Because those things are not Israel's to withhold and the point has been made to them, falsely perhaps but plausibly, that they will never have those things without fighting for them.

why shouldn't they? Either way that is up to them.

How do you suppose we would have reacted in '76 if the British had said, "Stop fighting and live peacefully for a while and then we'll see about your independence."

 

[ralliann]

Right. Because those things are not Israel's to withhold

It is not their right to withhold Israel either. Therefore now it is Israel's right to withhold. Nobody can help that Palestinians believe they have a right to withold Israel. They did, and still do.

and the point has been made to them, falsely perhaps but plausibly, that they will never have those things without fighting for them.

By whom?

How do you suppose we would have reacted in '76 if the British had said, "Stop fighting and live peacefully for a while and then we'll see about your independence."

We had a war already and won our independence. So has Israel. Palestinians just cannot accept Israel won.

 

[stevevw]

Really? They were? I don't think they were given a real chance to form a democratic state. Let's review the history for a moment here. The Arab peoples of Palestine (all of the parts that fell under British mandate including all of the current State of Israel) have not really had any sovereign independence to even try. Prior to the British mandate were centuries of foreign rule from the Ottomans, Malmuks, Crusader states, and Seljuks. At the end of the British mandate, refugees from the new Israeli state flooded into both Gaza and the West Bank. Gaza was an Egyptian protectorate, occupied by Israel, occupied by Egypt, and then finally occupied by Israel. The West Bank was a Jordanian protectorate until occupied by Israel in 1967. Only after the Oslo accords is there some semblance of self-government, but the occupation has never really ended.

With this history you claim they were "given many chances to create a nation and they were incapable of creating one". That's a bit of an over statement, they've been given *one* partial chance and it hasn't worked out well.

I look at the Jews who have probably been the most persecuted and dispossessed people in history. Yet each time they were dispossessed or oppressed within their land they still were dedicated to maintaining their culture and even growing it even as a minority people. That is what has kept them alive as a people and has eventually allowed them to build a nation.

That is because the Isrealis truely believe they belong to that land, that they are a culture of people with connections to that land.

You can't make a culture up out of nothing or some vague westernised idea of what that culture is. There are no deep roots to fall back on which created and sustain that culture even causing people to long for that culture when dispossessed.

I don't think the Palestinians have their own unique culture. There has not been enough time for them to feel or be that unique culture. They may relate more to Arabs in general and I think especially Syria where they can find some cultural identity that goes back.

Even the Arab leaders when discussing a destinct Palestinian people said that there is no such thing. Their culture was more related to Syrians.

The Palestinians had many opportunities and in some ways just as much as the Jews to create a national identity if they claim they have been there all along. Cultures don't collapse during oppression and in fact can shine through under duress. So they had opportunities if they truely wanted it.

But I don't think the drive was there because there was no Palestinian culture until recently. Even now its hard to say. I think they are more in common with the surrounding Arab cultures. There may be some overlaps with Isreali and Jewish culture. But there doesn't seem to be a clear and unique culture like the Isrealis with that land which has remained despite setbacks.

Even during the Babylonia empire the dispossessed Jews were able to establish their unique culture within Babylon where it became the second biggest Jewish society outside Isreal. That was in a foreign land let alone the one within their own land. The Jews persisted with their culture and kept rising above setbacks because they wanted it more because it was in their DNA so to speak.

When people think of Isreal or Jerusalem especially they think the Jews. They don't think Palestinians even though the Arabs have taken parts of Jerusalem and the Muslims occupy the Temple area. They relate this area to the Jews cultural identity because they go hand in hand. How can there be any other cultural ownership of this.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I look at the Jews who have probably been the most persecuted and dispossessed people in history. Yet each time they were dispossessed or oppressed within their land they still were dedicated to maintaining their culture and even growing it even as a minority people. That is what has kept them alive as a people and has eventually allowed them to build a nation.

And yet, when the got power again themselves for the first time in millennia, they demonstrated they (the Israeli Jews) hadn't learned the lesson from their own history and chose to be the oppressors themselves. (Have you ever wondered why it is that liberal Jews are so prominent in supporting the Palestinian cause? Just think about it for a minute.)

That is because the Isrealis truely believe they belong to that land, that they are a culture of people with connections to that land.

You can't make a culture up out of nothing or some vague westernised idea of what that culture is. There are no deep roots to fall back on which created and sustain that culture even causing people to long for that culture when dispossessed.

I don't think the Palestinians have their own unique culture. There has not been enough time for them to feel or be that unique culture. They may relate more to Arabs in general and I think especially Syria where they can find some cultural identity that goes back.

Even the Arab leaders when discussing a destinct Palestinian people said that there is no such thing. Their culture was more related to Syrians.

The Palestinians had many opportunities and in some ways just as much as the Jews to create a national identity if they claim they have been there all along. Cultures don't collapse during oppression and in fact can shine through under duress. So they had opportunities if they truely wanted it.

But I don't think the drive was there because there was no Palestinian culture until recently. Even now its hard to say. I think they are more in common with the surrounding Arab cultures. There may be some overlaps with Isreali and Jewish culture. But there doesn't seem to be a clear and unique culture like the Isrealis with that land which has remained despite setbacks.

Even during the Babylonia empire the dispossessed Jews were able to establish their unique culture within Babylon where it became the second biggest Jewish society outside Isreal. That was in a foreign land let alone the one within their own land. The Jews persisted with their culture and kept rising above setbacks because they wanted it more because it was in their DNA so to speak.

When people think of Isreal or Jerusalem especially they think the Jews. They don't think Palestinians even though the Arabs have taken parts of Jerusalem and the Muslims occupy the Temple area. They relate this area to the Jews cultural identity because they go hand in hand. How can there be any other cultural ownership of this.

The rest of this is more of the analysis of "rights" to the land that comes down to "Jews wrote their claim down in a book" and "Palestinians aren't a real people". You even managed to get Arab autocrats to back the second part.

 

[stevevw]

And yet, when the got power again themselves for the first time in millennia, they demonstrated they (the Israeli Jews) hadn't learned the lesson from their own history and chose to be the oppressors themselves.

How have they been oppressors. The Palestinians were allowed to vote, work and have a life in Isreal. They allow the right to elect Palestinians as political representatives and potentially be prime minister. From memory it was Palestinian polititians who ended up ousting an Isreali PM.

Palestinians can also work, have businesses and employ Isrealis. Isreal is a relativel free and democractic society. Most of the restrictions in place are the result of security measures because of extremist activity.

All democracies have their issues with multiculturalism and rights and I am not saying that the Isreali government has not been unfair and treated some people badly. But that doesn't mean they are an oppressive regime or an apartheid state no more than the wrongs the US, Canada, Britain and other western democracies have committed against minorities.

(Have you ever wondered why it is that liberal Jews are so prominent in supporting the Palestinian cause? Just think about it for a minute.)

I am not sure what you mean. The progressives in all nations seem to have a strange ideology about the Palestinian issue. They will always side with who they believe are the oppressed regardless of the facts.

Look at how many western polititians on the Left and other Leftist academics, students and corporations have either directly supported the Palestinians and Hamas or have not been willing to condemn them due to their ideological beliefs.

I mean its a strange relationship considering the Left is all for liberism and inclusion and Hamas is the direct opposite.

The rest of this is more of the analysis of "rights" to the land that comes down to "Jews wrote their claim down in a book" and "Palestinians aren't a real people". You even managed to get Arab autocrats to back the second part.

This is part of the problem that you seem to dismiss the Bible as not even having any insight into Jewish history and the land. That its just a myth, a claim some Jews wrote down in a book but having no basis in reality. Take this away and the Jews have nothing, no identity anymore than the Palestinians.

But when we do take the Book, the Bible seriously we find its a treasure map to Jewish history and culture which shows a long history of them being deprived of their land and culture but then coming back each time and maintaining that culture and connection with the land and leaves no doubt that the Jews have the right to exist in that land.

Why should the Jews give up what small slither of land they have and make it a completely different culture. Because that is what it comes down to. If the Palestinians are a nation then it is their culture that will be promoted including Islam as the dominate and only religion as all Muslim nations have done.

The Palestinians want all the land from the river to the sea. They don't want to share it with the Isrealis. But the Isrealis are willing to share the land if they are the dominant nation. The land is not big enough for two nations to exist in reality especially that they are fundementally different in important ways.

So we have to ask what sort of situation do we want in this area. Unless the Palestinians are willing to get rid of Hamas and the other radicals there will be no agreement with the Isrealis. But if they do then theres a chance for either the Palestinians to live in peace under an Isreali nation or even be in a position to create their own nation.

But whats at stake is more than just the Isreali and Palestine nations but what sort of nation do we want in that area another Iran or a democratic and free nation.

 

[Landon Caeli]

And yet, when they got power again themselves for the first time in millennia, they demonstrated they (the Israeli Jews) hadn't learned the lesson from their own history and chose to be the oppressors themselves.

The Israeli Jews are no more oppressive than you and me, living here on Indian land. Have we learned any lessons, staying here, occupying this land, as a full blown apartheid group ourselves?

I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect more out of others than our own selves. In my opinion, we have no business criticizing Israel.

 

[Hans Blaster]

The Israeli Jews are no more oppressive than you and me, living here on Indian land. Have we learned any lessons, staying here, occupying this land, as a full blown apartheid group ourselves?

I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect more out of others than our own selves. In my opinion, we have no business criticizing Israel.

I'm not talking about living on land taken from someone else a long time ago. I'm talking about actively taking land away from others. It is still going on in addition to it happenning in living memory.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I'm not talking about living on land taken from someone else a long time ago. I'm talking about actively taking land away from others. It is still going on in addition to it happenning in living memory.

I get you... I thought times had changed too, and that the world is different now. I thought that until I saw the Russian war machine fire back up. I thought that until I saw reports of Muslums "molesting" Jews, just like I read in old historical books about Romans travelling to the Holy land over a thousand years ago getting "molested". I thought the word was being improperly used, but now I know it was accurate.

...The times haven't changed. Not in reality. Colonialism has existed since the dawn of man, and it will never end as long as humans are alive. Us and the Israeli Jews are the same. Two peas in a pod.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I get you... I thought times had changed too, and that the world is different now. I thought that until I saw the Russian war machine fire back up. I thought that until I saw reports of Muslums "molesting" Jews, just like I read in old historical books about Romans travelling to the Holy land over a thousand years ago getting "molested". I thought the word was being improperly used, but now I know it was accurate.

...The times haven't changed. Not in reality. Colonialism has existed since the dawn of man, and it will never end as long as humans are alive. Us and the Israeli Jews are the same. Two peas in a pod.

I don't see myself or us in either group over there. Not their motivations, not their situation.