Another view at Kenosha

[camille70]

Kenosha's Sheriff, David Beth.


https://twitter.com/AynRandPaulRyan/status/1300442397776556032?s=20

 

[renniks]

When you characterize an entire range of proposals by the most extreme of them, that's more than a little bit dishonest, don't you think? Otherwise, I could characterize all anti-immigration arguments by those who want to shoot them all and let God sort it out. Or the pro-life movement by those who think that murdering abortion providers is a valid solution. There are always going to be nuts on every part of the political spectrum proposing extreme, unrealistic solutions to complicated problems. Pretending that those extreme solutions are in any way representative of the majority opinion does nothing to promote reasonable discussion.

Show me a BLM leader who is talking about just having less police...

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Show me a BLM leader who is talking about just having less police...

Why does it have to be a BLM leader? They're not the only group calling for some sort of defunding initiative. For example, I could point to the actions that LA and New York have already taken, which involve moving funds from the police department to community initiatives like youth employment, mentoring, community centers, health services, and other social services. I feel like that's far more relevant to the discussion than wringing our hands over the ideas of a few vocal activists.

Realistically, the majority of Americans don't support eliminating the police entirely, so it's never going to happen.

 

[renniks]

Realistically, the majority of Americans don't support eliminating the police entirely, so it's never going to happen.

So the thosands of BLM supporters agree with eliminating the police, and spent months whining and screaming and hurting people to that end, but it's totally impossible? That's pretty much what I've been saying all along. Why does anyone listen to their impossible proposals?

 

[RocksInMyHead]

So the thosands of BLM supporters agree with eliminating the police, and spent months whining and screaming and hurting people to that end, but it's totally impossible?

Yep.

That's pretty much what I've been saying all along.

Then we're in agreement.

Why does anyone listen to their impossible proposals?

Because they shout loudly and their ideas sound good on the surface. It's the same as when people on the right were whining and screaming about how we needed to give every teacher in America a gun after the Parkland shooting. Sounds like a good idea until you start thinking about it a bit.

 

[A_Thinker]

This is completely speculative and doesn’t take into consideration the facts that transpired. It is confirmed that Blake was reaching for a knife found in the driver’s side floor of the vehicle. Would the officer have shot a white man reaching for a knife on the floor inside the vehicle? Absolutely he would. So no there is nothing here to indicate any sort of racism taking place. Here’s a clear example of how making assumptions without having all the facts can cause unnecessary friction much like the rioters as a result of this situation who look like a bunch of idiots for burning cars and buildings over this without knowing all the facts only to find out 3 days later that the shooting was justified.

The problem is that up to now police have ALWAYS justified their actions, so much noone really believes them.

Explicit reference to the thin blue line does nothing to enhance the believabilty of cops ...

 

[A_Thinker]

Show me a BLM leader who is talking about just having less police...

BLM (the organization) is, if nothing else, extremist.

I believe that the organization has good intentions, but some of their demands and methodologies are questionable ...

 

[jgarden]

So the thosands of BLM supporters agree with eliminating the police, and spent months whining and screaming and hurting people to that end, but it's totally impossible? That's pretty much what I've been saying all along. Why does anyone listen to their impossible proposals?

The videos speak for themselves and effectively undermine those kinds of police rebuttals that would have provided them just a few years ago with the benefit of the doubt from the American public!

For decades, the nation's police departments were content to follow the line of least resistance by coasting on their reputations instead of disciplining the excesses of their members, never expecting that the day would come when their denials would no longer withstand the public scrutiny provided by private citizens videoing the events!

 

[Tone]

no longer stand up to the scrutiny provided by private citizens videoing the events!

Yeah, where I am, police have to call it in before they decide to just jam somebody up, then they have to turn on their body cams.

So, as you would expect, there are less arrests for petty stuff. This is an ideal way to do "the beat", I would think. Why try to look for stuff to dredge up, instead of just waiting for real stuff to happen?

 

[renniks]

The videos speak for themselves and effectively undermine those kinds of police rebuttals that would have provided them just a few years ago with the benefit of the doubt from the American public!

For decades, the nation's police departments were content to follow the line of least resistance by coasting on their reputations instead of disciplining the excesses of their members, never expecting that the day would come when their denials would no longer withstand the public scrutiny provided by private citizens videoing the events!

The police do a great job. You want to throw a fit about less than 15 possible bad shootings a year or do you want to look at the reality that they are the only thing preventing total anarchy?
You want to see cities decay and bodies laying in the street every morning and Mafia running things then yes, defund the police.

 

[BNR32FAN]

BLM (the organization) is, if nothing else, extremist.

I believe that the organization has good intentions, but some of their demands and methodologies are questionable ...

They’re a racist organization.

 

[A_Thinker]

They’re a racist organization.

That's debatable, but US certainly has been ...

 

[BNR32FAN]

That's debatable, but US certainly has been ...

Well one of their demands to the Cuban restaurant they were harassing was that they must give a portion of their profits to a black charity organization. Personally I would never donate to an organization that limits its services to any particular race. On top of that it’s none of BLM’s business what a person does with their money. They shouldn’t be demanding that anyone to give their money to any organization.

 

[camille70]

I just posted these in the other thread, but I'll put them here also.

Kenosha P.D. Was Already Awash With Corruption, Brutality and Cover-Ups Before Blake Shooting

From 2017...

Kenosha PD accused of 'corruption, lies'

 

[Arc F1]

While I agree with much of what you have said here, we cannot set aside that there is systemic racism and there is police brutality. So all of those things need to be addressed simultaneously.
And don't think that it is just men who need good jobs, women do too. Women need to be able to take care of themselves and sometimes their children and/or parents as well.

I do see an issue with not singling out those responsible. Just as we tend to say Blm when addressing all the rioters they blame all police for the actions of the few. I think a move in the right direction would be getting back to personal responsibility and calling out only those bad actors.

 

[Hank77]

I do see an issue with not singling out those responsible. Just as we tend to say Blm when addressing all the rioters they blame all police for the actions of the few. I think a move in the right direction would be getting back to personal responsibility and calling out only those bad actors.

I agree, however, we need to find those that are the instigators behind those who commit violent acts and those who support those acts.
There are those in the BLM movement who do support violence and there are those in the police who do support police violence.
But overwhelmingly neither the BLM movement nor law enforcement is in favor of violence. These people need to be working to together not against each other.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I just posted these in the other thread, but I'll put them here also.

Kenosha P.D. Was Already Awash With Corruption, Brutality and Cover-Ups Before Blake Shooting

From 2017...

Kenosha PD accused of 'corruption, lies'

I'm shocked.

You don't get rioting after a single event. You get rioting after a history of mistreatment that leave citizens mistrustful and resentful of their government or other oppressors. The triggering event is merely that - a trigger.

 

[Helmut-WK]

Oh, you’re “certain”? How did you arrive to such certainty?

How can you doubt? 1 (one) shot is enough to make a person incapable of assaulting with a knife. Even if that shot didn't reach its objective, another shot is enough. You want to debate whether a third shot might be necessary? Or even a fourth shot? Or even (unthinkable, but you seem to think that) a fifth shot? And a sixth ? And a seventh?

There is even no unreasonable doubt that seven shots are not necessary. Only unreasonable conviction.

 

[Helmut-WK]

High crime rates, drugs, etc. aren't because of skin color.

They are the result of poverty. Poverty is often the result of "high crime rates, drugs, etc.", and of poor education (no good school affordable). Which is the result of poverty ...

People may get out of such a vicious circle, but not everyone. And with prejudices against blacks from a rather criminal suburb, it is harder to get out of it.

The problems are intertwined, you cannot say color of skin plays no role when it is intertwined with the problems you mention.

In other countries, it might be other factors, as religion (Catholics in Northern Ireland, Muslims in France, or even Germany ...). Or anything else.

 

[Helmut-WK]

I can't make them do anything without punishment. That's why we need cops. I said people could do it not that they would.

Punishment is not enough. Often kids with some problems get criminal while being in prison. Up to a certain degree, it is better not putting them in prisons, but give them other ways of punishment.