Another view at Kenosha

[Pommer]

I'm not speaking for I'm speaking about. If I had the means I could correct the problems in poor neighborhoods. You could do it, heck just about anyone could. High crime rates, drugs, etc. aren't because of skin color. If we don't get away from the narrative that blacks are victims nothing is going to change. Sorry but I just don't see blacks as being less able than others. You can go into any high crime area and find whites in the same situation. It's lack of opportunity and that comes from the lack of jobs. When a man isn't employed he lacks the feeling of self worth. It's the same for all colors. People are stuck generation after generation in a bad situation without a way out. That has to change.

Yes, I see that now, (sorry).
Oh...okay, you’re saying that the situation we’re discussing is a class struggle?
Yes, there’s that, but, no, it’s still about color, too.
Do you recall the “beer summit”?

The arrest occurred just after Gates returned home to Cambridge after a trip to China to research the ancestry of Yo-Yo-Ma for Faces of America. Gates found the front door to his home jammed shut and, with the help of his driver, tried to force it open. A local witness reported their activity to the police as a potential burglary in progress. Accounts regarding the ensuing confrontation differ, but Gates was arrested by the responding officer, Sgt. James Crowley, and charged with disorderly conduct . On July 21, the charges against Gates were dropped. The arrest generated a national debate about whether or not it represented an example of racial profiling by police.

That was a situation that many people have had, being locked out of our own abode and having to be resourceful to gain entry.

So yes, class is a factor, but race is also a factor as well, as Professor Gates had all the class he needed to live in a nice community but was still told that he didn’t seem to “belong”.

And yes, I know that you’re talking about helping poor people to become “less poor” and even maybe “rich” someday, but I’m saying “rich” isn’t enough for people of color, because of the racially charged system that we all live under.
You could argue that I’m using an “outlier” to state my case, but my defense is that it happens so often that is is the norm, and therefore goes unreported. What makes it an outlier is that it made news.

 

[Arc F1]

Yes, I see that now, (sorry).
Oh...okay, you’re saying that the situation we’re discussing is a class struggle?
Yes, there’s that, but, no, it’s still about color, too.
Do you recall the “beer summit”?


That was a situation that many people have had, being locked out of our own abode and having to be resourceful to gain entry.

So yes, class is a factor, but race is also a factor as well, as Professor Gates had all the class he needed to live in a nice community but was still told that he didn’t seem to “belong”.

And yes, I know that you’re talking about helping poor people to become “less poor” and even maybe “rich” someday, but I’m saying “rich” isn’t enough for people of color, because of the racially charged system that we all live under.
You could argue that I’m using an “outlier” to state my case, but my defense is that it happens so often that is is the norm, and therefore goes unreported. What makes it an outlier is that it made news.

Something has to be done to help people. I would rather go the route of equality. Programs that place one race over another aren't working. If we want people to have a voice in society they have to feel like they matter and that starts with men being able to support their families. We need to get back to the American dream of 2.5 kids, picket fence and owning a home. Use any poor high crime neighborhood as an example and add in thousands of jobs and you will see a transformation. Right now people want more and more and have become addicted to cheap labor. We have all become selfish and uncaring. We say one thing and do another while whole parts of our society are being left behind. People for the most part don't want handouts they want to earn a living. We need to get past color and see real people with real problems. Enough with the selfishness and pride. I know it's never going to happen but I'm not giving up.

 

[Kentonio]

Something has to be done to help people. I would rather go the route of equality. Programs that place one race over another aren't working. If we want people to have a voice in society they have to feel like they matter and that starts with men being able to support their families. We need to get back to the American dream of 2.5 kids, picket fence and owning a home. Use any poor high crime neighborhood as an example and add in thousands of jobs and you will see a transformation. Right now people want more and more and have become addicted to cheap labor. We have all become selfish and uncaring. We say one thing and do another while whole parts of our society are being left behind. People for the most part don't want handouts they want to earn a living. We need to get past color and see real people with real problems. Enough with the selfishness and pride. I know it's never going to happen but I'm not giving up.

Most of the arguments aren't about giving black people some advantage though, just about giving them the same treatment that everyone else takes for granted. Personally I agree with you about the economic opportunity needed, but its become more and more clear that there's a deep seated institutional racism within police departments that desperately needs resolving too.

We had that in the UK too. Black communities told everyone the police and system were racist, and largely people refused to accept it. We heard all the same things we're hearing from Americans today about how it can't be true, and 'a few bad apples' etc etc. But then after a high profile murder case and police failure, they appointed a high profile judge, William Macpherson to carry out a public inquiry and produce a report. His report shocked the nation by revealing that not only were the Metropolitan Police institutionally racist, but he also found a need for reform in the civil service, NHS, local government, schools and the justice system.

America needs something similar if you're ever going to give people real equality and start growing together as a nation again.

 

[Arc F1]

Most of the arguments aren't about giving black people some advantage though, just about giving them the same treatment that everyone else takes for granted. Personally I agree with you about the economic opportunity needed, but its become more and more clear that there's a deep seated institutional racism within police departments that desperately needs resolving too.

We had that in the UK too. Black communities told everyone the police and system were racist, and largely people refused to accept it. We heard all the same things we're hearing from Americans today about how it can't be true, and 'a few bad apples' etc etc. But then after a high profile murder case and police failure, they appointed a high profile judge, William Macpherson to carry out a public inquiry and produce a report. His report shocked the nation by revealing that not only were the Metropolitan Police institutionally racist, but he also found a need for reform in the civil service, NHS, local government, schools and the justice system.

America needs something similar if you're ever going to give people real equality and start growing together as a nation again.

I think it comes from dealing with high crime areas for to long. They become hardened against those that they are always having to deal with. Out in rural areas where the high crime areas are mostly white they tend to have no sympathy for people that live there. They are constantly being called day after day and they expect the worst. Black officers are no different when responding. One of the guys that was part of the Floyd incident was black. He didn't speak up. What's happening now is leading to more problems. I watched the video of the guy being shot in the back 7 times and it was obvious that they were afraid to stop him from getting in the car. In the back of their minds they were probably thinking about how they would be portrayed. They let it go right up till the last minute then panicked. If police forces had a majority black force we would see the same issues and then people couldn't yell racist.

 

[Kentonio]

I think it comes from dealing with high crime areas for to long. They become hardened against those that they are always having to deal with. Out in rural areas where the high crime areas are mostly white they tend to have no sympathy for people that live there. They are constantly being called day after day and they expect the worst. Black officers are no different when responding. One of the guys that was part of the Floyd incident was black. He didn't speak up. What's happening now is leading to more problems. I watched the video of the guy being shot in the back 7 times and it was obvious that they were afraid to stop him from getting in the car. In the back of their minds they were probably thinking about how they would be portrayed. They let it go right up till the last minute then panicked. If police forces had a majority black force we would see the same issues and then people couldn't yell racist.

I think high crime areas and desensitizing definitely plays a role, but we also see black people treated differently by police in wealthier, safer areas. Maybe its time to just ask the question 'Are the police institutionally racist?' and weigh up the evidence for both sides, rather than just looking for reasons why they couldn't possibly be.

 

[Arc F1]

I think high crime areas and desensitizing definitely plays a role, but we also see black people treated differently by police in wealthier, safer areas. Maybe its time to just ask the question 'Are the police institutionally racist?' and weigh up the evidence for both sides, rather than just looking for reasons why they couldn't possibly be.

Or people could just stop committing crimes. That would defund all the police forces if we didn't have so many people to arrest. If we are going to look for solutions thats the way to go.

 

[Kentonio]

Or people could just stop committing crimes. That would defund all the police forces if we didn't have so many people to arrest. If we are going to look for solutions thats the way to go.

How is that a way to go? How are you going to suddenly make people stop committing crimes?

 

[Arc F1]

How is that a way to go? How are you going to suddenly make people stop committing crimes?

I can't make them do anything without punishment. That's why we need cops. I said people could do it not that they would.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

I can't make them do anything without punishment. That's why we need cops. I said people could do it not that they would.

Proposing unrealistic hypotheticals doesn't solve anything.

 

[renniks]

Proposing unrealistic hypotheticals doesn't solve anything.

But the funny thing is, this seems to be exactly what the " defund the police" people think is going to happen.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

But the funny thing is, this seems to be exactly what the " defund the police" people think is going to happen.

No, it's not. All of the realistic defund initiatives don't eliminate the police, just reduce their role and responsibilities.

 

[Kentonio]

I can't make them do anything without punishment. That's why we need cops. I said people could do it not that they would.

If a hammer is your only tool, pretty soon everything starts to look like a nail. At some point you have to start asking why crime is happening and how that can be prevented in the first place. Because right now you have the largest per capita prison population in the world, a sky high murder rate compared to the other western democracies and protests all across the nation. There are real reasons for those things that go far beyond just ‘not enough cops’.

 

[Arc F1]

If a hammer is your only tool, pretty soon everything starts to look like a nail. At some point you have to start asking why crime is happening and how that can be prevented in the first place. Because right now you have the largest per capita prison population in the world, a sky high murder rate compared to the other western democracies and protests all across the nation. There are real reasons for those things that go far beyond just ‘not enough cops’.

It tells me we have a lot of people who don't care about the law.

 

[renniks]

No, it's not. All of the realistic defund initiatives don't eliminate the police, just reduce their role and responsibilities.

Black Lives Matter Activist: Abolishing The Police '100%' Means Just That

Who said anything about realism?

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Black Lives Matter Activist: Abolishing The Police '100%' Means Just That

Who said anything about realism?

When you characterize an entire range of proposals by the most extreme of them, that's more than a little bit dishonest, don't you think? Otherwise, I could characterize all anti-immigration arguments by those who want to shoot them all and let God sort it out. Or the pro-life movement by those who think that murdering abortion providers is a valid solution. There are always going to be nuts on every part of the political spectrum proposing extreme, unrealistic solutions to complicated problems. Pretending that those extreme solutions are in any way representative of the majority opinion does nothing to promote reasonable discussion.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There is some racism involved (would the policeman have reacted the same way if Blake were white?).

This is completely speculative and doesn’t take into consideration the facts that transpired. It is confirmed that Blake was reaching for a knife found in the driver’s side floor of the vehicle. Would the officer have shot a white man reaching for a knife on the floor inside the vehicle? Absolutely he would. So no there is nothing here to indicate any sort of racism taking place. Here’s a clear example of how making assumptions without having all the facts can cause unnecessary friction much like the rioters as a result of this situation who look like a bunch of idiots for burning cars and buildings over this without knowing all the facts only to find out 3 days later that the shooting was justified.

 

[jgarden]

Another view at Kenosha

Given that millions of unemployed Americans and their families have been currently left to struggle for over a month without the renewal of federal benefits - doesn't that create the perfect recipe for a predictable increase in crime and social unrest, given the lengths to which desperate people will go to provide food and shelter!

Given that Wisconsin is a swing state while Washington and Oregon are both firmly in the Democratic column, Trump's uninvited presence in Kenosha once again demonstrates that he is strictly a "transaction" President - only interested in those citizens willing to provide him with political support!

 

[BNR32FAN]

Due to the prevalence of firearms in America, our police are more likely to encounter armed resistance. The fear that a person may be going for a gnn ultimately results in many fatal shootings. The right to carry a weapon, however, will not change in America. What is needed. imo, is an overhaul of how such incidents are evaluated and individuals are held accountable for their actions. Today, many Americans feel (with good reason in some cases) that police are not being held accountable...and that is a problem.

Gun laws are irrelevant as in this case Jacob Blake was reaching for a knife and was shot. At this point he could’ve been reaching for a packet of peanuts and he would’ve still been shot because when you’ve just fought with the officers and managed to get free going to your car and reaching into the floor will get you shot every time. So even if guns weren’t an issue there are still plenty of other weapons to choose from that a cop would consider a lethal threat.

 

[Hank77]

I'm not speaking for I'm speaking about. If I had the means I could correct the problems in poor neighborhoods. You could do it, heck just about anyone could. High crime rates, drugs, etc. aren't because of skin color. If we don't get away from the narrative that blacks are victims nothing is going to change. Sorry but I just don't see blacks as being less able than others. You can go into any high crime area and find whites in the same situation. It's lack of opportunity and that comes from the lack of jobs. When a man isn't employed he lacks the feeling of self worth. It's the same for all colors. People are stuck generation after generation in a bad situation without a way out. That has to change.

While I agree with much of what you have said here, we cannot set aside that there is systemic racism and there is police brutality. So all of those things need to be addressed simultaneously.
And don't think that it is just men who need good jobs, women do too. Women need to be able to take care of themselves and sometimes their children and/or parents as well.

 

[Hank77]

Yes, I see that now, (sorry).
Oh...okay, you’re saying that the situation we’re discussing is a class struggle?
Yes, there’s that, but, no, it’s still about color, too.
Do you recall the “beer summit”?


That was a situation that many people have had, being locked out of our own abode and having to be resourceful to gain entry.

So yes, class is a factor, but race is also a factor as well, as Professor Gates had all the class he needed to live in a nice community but was still told that he didn’t seem to “belong”.

And yes, I know that you’re talking about helping poor people to become “less poor” and even maybe “rich” someday, but I’m saying “rich” isn’t enough for people of color, because of the racially charged system that we all live under.
You could argue that I’m using an “outlier” to state my case, but my defense is that it happens so often that is is the norm, and therefore goes unreported. What makes it an outlier is that it made news.

It's like the two young men who were driving in a nice neighborhood to a house that they owned and had for sale.
A cop followed them around the neighborhood and stopped them for no reason other than to check them out. They fully co-operated and even answered all of his questions about where they were going. They invited him to check out the house. He followed them to the house and stood outside the front door while they unlocked the door and went into the unoccupied house. He looked in the door and then he left.
Predominately white upscale neighborhood so obviously they just didn't belong there.

How demeaning is that?