Another view at Kenosha

[Helmut-WK]

Is there racism involved? How exactly do you conclude racism played a role in the decision to shoot?

Seven shots into the back when just a shot into a leg would be enough to stop him (under the presupposition that he will attack) shows a heavy over-reaction.

It's subjective, but I'm certain the policeman would have acted somewhat different if Blake had be white.

 

[Helmut-WK]

White people get shot and killed by police for behaving badly. I didn't see any racism in any of what happened.

Sometimes whites behaving badly are killed. But the percentage of blacks shot to death is double of blacks in the population. If this were not the case, we might see a "lives matter" movement, but no "black lives matter".

 

[Helmut-WK]

Blake apparently was reaching for a weapon at that very time.

Police Recover Weapon From Vehicle Of WI Shooting Victim Jacob Blake

Thanks for the link.

There are some pictures that show Blake holds something in the hand. It doesn't look like a knife, the form resembles more a handgun (revolver etc.). But since Blake had no gun, it is probably the key for his car (and other objects joined to it).

The key sentence seems to be:

According to the Wisconsin Department of Justice, police recovered a knife from the floorboard, but the agency did not say whether Blake, a 29-year-old black man, was holding the weapon when Sheskey shot him in the back

Against a man with a knife, especially one who has its back to you, one shot is enough to make an attack impossible. In that short distance, the chance of not hitting the body at a relevant point is next to zero. There little justification for shooting twice, and definitely no justification at all to shoot seven times.

If it were only one shot, you might be right. But not with seven shots.

 

[Helmut-WK]

Not surprising, really. He was armed with a deadly weapon.

The number of shots should not depend on the kind of weapon,, but on the number of shots needed to stop an attack.

A person who has his back towards you and has no gun, but a knife, does not need seven shots to be stopped. A shot in the body will stop him, and even a shot in the leg (was the policeman incapable to aim on the leg of a man standing and leaning over?).

 

[gaara4158]

It’s chilling how many people have internalized this notion that police are to be obeyed under all circumstances and a reasonable consequence for noncompliance is on-the-spot execution. Yes, it’s probably street-wise to follow cops’ instructions in the moment, but the fact that failure to do so can easily result in you being shot is nothing short of dystopian. And what’s worse, after you’ve been shot you can be sure they’ll go to work on you. They’ll dredge up any off-color history you might have; they’ll report a fistfight as a murder conviction, speeding tickets as high speed chases, a drunken night out as a hard drug problem. And what’s worse, there are regular citizens who will gleefully help spread the narrative that this person who was killed for zigging when they should have zagged really deserved to die anyway because of who they were.

I also agree with your observation that the right to carry weapons is a liability for anyone who has the attention of the police. Why give people the right to defend themselves if you’re just going to use their rights as another excuse to shoot them claiming self-defense yourself? It almost feels deliberate. The right to bear arms is the right to get shot by an agent of the state because they thought you might pull out a gun and shoot them first.

All of this amounts to agents of the state having absolute authority over all citizens, who are expected to obey or die. There’s a point where it’s just straight fascism.

 

[Helmut-WK]

I also agree with your observation that the right to carry weapons is a liability for anyone who has the attention of the police. Why give people the right to defend themselves if you’re just going to use their rights as another excuse to shoot them claiming self-defense yourself? It almost feels deliberate.

I don't think it is deliberate. Policemen are human, not perfect, they act under stress, and if you fear for your life you are inclined to shoot before thinking.

But this does not justify every over-reaction, of course. And the best remedy against fatal situation is a better training, in de-escalation (I suppose trump hates this word, and not he alone), in handling different scenarios

The cover-up of a failure, i.e. making an unjustified killing into a justified one (as you described) is deliberate, of course. To a lesser degree such things happen in Germany, too. Recently there were news about the case of Ouri Jalloh, a refugee from Sierra Leone, who died in police custody (locked in because of being totally intoxicated) in 2005. According to the police, he set his mattress aflame (drunken, and hand-cuffed!). Friends could not believe that, there were several investigations, and the final one now states that the police report was wrong in not few details. But After so many time, it is impossible to find the truth, case closed. Such things are not that often in Germany, e.g. because there is no right to carry weapon (you have first get a certificate about your police record in order to request for a licence to own weapons) and because the police is, in general, better trained than in the US.

EDIT: corrected a typo

 

[wing2000]

NOPE


UPDATE: the Department of Justice has confirmed that Jacob Blake has admitted to having a knife and that a knife was found in the driver's side floorboard of his car.............OK Here's what happened: Jacob is struggling with an officer, then, all of a sudden, the officers jump back and pull out their guns because Jacob pulled out a knife. At 0:13 one of the officers says, "he's got a knife, he's got a knife". Then Jacob's baby momma says, "put it down". At 0:18, you can see that he has something in his left hand as he walks in front of the car. The guy that recorded the video said that he heard the cops yelling about a knife. With that context, the behavior of everyone in the video makes sense. There were multiple officers on the scene. Jacob was outnumbered.....they could have restrained him but when he pulled out the knife, they all jumped back....even his baby momma jumped back....and from that point forward, Jacob casually walks away as the cops follow closely behind with guns drawn. They are keeping their distance because Jacob is armed with a deadly weapon. They can't let him get back in the car because he might have a gun in there.

"...Then Jacob's baby momma says"

Why the derogatory description of his mother?

 

[wing2000]

It’s chilling how many people have internalized this notion that police are to be obeyed under all circumstances and a reasonable consequence for noncompliance is on-the-spot execution. Yes, it’s probably street-wise to follow cops’ instructions in the moment, but the fact that failure to do so can easily result in you being shot is nothing short of dystopian. And what’s worse, after you’ve been shot you can be sure they’ll go to work on you. They’ll dredge up any off-color history you might have; they’ll report a fistfight as a murder conviction, speeding tickets as high speed chases, a drunken night out as a hard drug problem. And what’s worse, there are regular citizens who will gleefully help spread the narrative that this person who was killed for zigging when they should have zagged really deserved to die anyway because of who they were.

I also agree with your observation that the right to carry weapons is a liability for anyone who has the attention of the police. Why give people the right to defend themselves if you’re just going to use their rights as another excuse to shoot them claiming self-defense yourself? It almost feels deliberate. The right to bear arms is the right to get shot by an agent of the state because they thought you might pull out a gun and shoot them first.

All of this amounts to agents of the state having absolute authority over all citizens, who are expected to obey or die. There’s a point where it’s just straight fascism.

One question I have: Assuming the suspect did have a knife, why not just back off and re-assess the situation? If had was going for a gun, I could understand the need to neutralize the suspect. But with a knife, what potential danger would he have with a knife? He would have been surrounded by police with weapons drawn....

 

[Pavel Mosko]

"...Then Jacob's baby momma says"

Why the derogatory description of his mother?

I don't know, leave a comment on the You-tube channel that the video and quote comes from.

OK i forgot to add quotation marks, but only used the red ink, that I use when I quote from people and sources.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

One question I have: Assuming the suspect did have a knife, why not just back off and re-assess the situation? If had was going for a gun, I could understand the need to neutralize the suspect. But with a knife, what potential danger would he have with a knife? He would have been surrounded by police with weapons drawn....

Because this all went down fast.

By the way that is a point that you should have realized if you spent more time looking at the event time stamps on the previous quote rather than fixating on the "baby momma" comment of the You-tuber poster I quoted.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Honestly people, theblaze and YouTube comments are not the best sources of information.

 

[Arc F1]

Sometimes whites behaving badly are killed. But the percentage of blacks shot to death is double of blacks in the population. If this were not the case, we might see a "lives matter" movement, but no "black lives matter".

There are many reasons for that. None of them are based on being black. If you look at poor neighborhoods in general you can see the percentage of people being shot higher than surrounding areas. We need to stop the cheap foreign labor and provide jobs right here. Men in poor situations no longer have self worth. The problem isn't skin color. It's opportunity.

 

[Pommer]

There are many reasons for that. None of them are based on being black. If you look at poor neighborhoods in general you can see the percentage of people being shot higher than surrounding areas. We need to stop the cheap foreign labor and provide jobs right here. Men in poor situations no longer have self worth. The problem isn't skin color. It's opportunity.

I’m sorry, if you’re not a black person, (even if you are a person of color), you don’t have the experience to speak for black folk.

 

[Albion]

I’m sorry, if you’re not a black person, (even if you are a person of color), you don’t have the experience to speak for black folk.

That's not exactly what Joe Biden told the black interviewer.

The actual quote is "Well I tell you what, if you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black.''

 

[Pommer]

That's not exactly what Joe Biden told the black interviewer.

The actual quote is "Well I tell you what, if you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black.''

Biden was wrong too.
When I do this, (and I do) as a white guy, I’m giving my perspective of what POC have told me and nothing more.
But I also don’t say, “this is the way things are, just get over it”, (if I do, please call me out on it). I try to be an honest debater, but I can be wr, wro, wron...incorrect at times.

 

[Tone]

Maybe calling the cops on someone for anything less than imminent death, should be a crime.

*I say this because I've seen so many of these domestic calls end up like this.

 

[NotreDame]

Seven shots into the back when just a shot into a leg would be enough to stop him (under the presupposition that he will attack) shows a heavy over-reaction.

It's subjective, but I'm certain the policeman would have acted somewhat different if Blake had be white.

Oh, you’re “certain”? How did you arrive to such certainty?

 

[wing2000]

Because this all went down fast.

By the way that is a point that you should have realized if you spent more time looking at the event time stamps on the previous quote rather than fixating on the "baby momma" comment of the You-tuber poster I quoted.

It is a question I have. ...and while I appreciate you invested a good part of the last few days analyzing videos, I prefer to defer to forensics experts.

 

[A_Thinker]

Seven shots into the back when just a shot into a leg would be enough to stop him (under the presupposition that he will attack) shows a heavy over-reaction.

It's subjective, but I'm certain the policeman would have acted somewhat different if Blake had be white.

Oh, you’re “certain”? How did you arrive to such certainty?

Well ... they certainly seem to act differently.

The 17 year old shooter in the Kenosha protest violence ... walked right past the Kenosha police units present ... with his unlicensed long-gun.

The Kenosha police did not even arrest him that night, ... but allowed him to be driven back to his home in Illinois.

That seems different ...

 

[Arc F1]

I’m sorry, if you’re not a black person, (even if you are a person of color), you don’t have the experience to speak for black folk.

I'm not speaking for I'm speaking about. If I had the means I could correct the problems in poor neighborhoods. You could do it, heck just about anyone could. High crime rates, drugs, etc. aren't because of skin color. If we don't get away from the narrative that blacks are victims nothing is going to change. Sorry but I just don't see blacks as being less able than others. You can go into any high crime area and find whites in the same situation. It's lack of opportunity and that comes from the lack of jobs. When a man isn't employed he lacks the feeling of self worth. It's the same for all colors. People are stuck generation after generation in a bad situation without a way out. That has to change.