Another take on the Rapture

[Copperhead]

No more comment?

Well unlike you, keras, I have to work for a living and run a business, to the tune of about 14 hrs a day. And I have a wife and small farm property to take care of also. I don't have the luxury of playing around on the computer all the time and debate things. Your impatience exhibits a lack of one of the spiritual gifts.

I have no problem when someone says that my thoughts on these things are merely opinion. They are! But others, like you, should do the same thing. You are just another brother saved by grace. And you do not have it all worked out, just like no one else does. No one has a monopoly on God.

I am not really concerned that you think my position is in error. It is not a condition of salvation. Thankfully, neither is your position. I just put it out there as part of the discussion, I countered your use of certain verses, and that is what dialogue and debate is all about. If you try to make this eschatological issue a condition of salvation or standing before the Lord, then you are aligning yourself with cultic practices, pure and simple, because you would be saying that Messiah's death was not sufficient.

But you have yet to show, scripturally, that my assertion regarding those resurrected at the time when Yeshua was on earth (Mat 27) and how that could relate to the legal prescription regarding the harvest (Lev 23) is a falsehood. You can't. While it may be opinion of mine, it is a scripturally reasoned position.

Scholars have debated this passage in Matthew for centuries, even trying to say that it was a later addition. But we have texts and lectionary writings going right back to within a century of the original that have this same passage in Matthew. It is well established from a textual criticism perspective. This is why all translations have this passage and haven't deleted it.

Therefore, it is the clearest example of evidence of at least one pre-trib rapture, or removal, of the righteous. it sets the precedence for the concept. That you don't believe it does not make it any less of a viable position. There are many things that haven't been spotted in scripture before that have come to light in these last days. That is in keeping with what Daniel wrote (Dan 12:9-10). And even Sir Isaac Newton, a voracious expositor of scripture, had this to say 100 years before the one associated with a pre-trib view, John Darby, showed up....

"About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophesies of the Bible and insist on their literal interpretation in the midst of much clamor and opposition."

 

[Copperhead]

We can easily show up your wrong ideas: in Matthew 27:52 it says those saints were seen in the city, nothing about going to heaven at all and as they are no longer around, the only logical and scripturally correct assumption, is that they died again, as the martyrs who will be brought back to life at Jesus' Return may do. Revelation 20:4-6

If they were righteous, why would they need to die again? The writer made it very clear in Hebrews 9:27 that we are appointed once to die. Obviously Lazarus and Jairus' daughter were exceptions. These were to show that Yeshua was who He claimed to be. And we have no indication that they were considered saints like those in Mat 27.

Did those righteous that were resurrected just get a do over? And what would be the purpose of that? They were already considered righteous. It would not be within God's character to subject those righteous dead to the same nonsense again. No, I contend they were basically in a "holding pattern" until the death and resurrection of Yeshua which paid the penalty for sin by His death. Remember Abraham's bosom? They then were set free since the penalty for sin had been paid and resurrected to be taken as the First Fruits of the harvest by Yeshua our High Priest to be waved before the Father, as prescribed in Leviticus 23. There are various passages in scripture that imply that any resurrection will be seen by others on the earth. That these resurrected were seen is in keeping with that idea.

Sure they were seen in the city. But the scripture is silent after that. You cannot "easily show up" any wrong idea that you think I have. There is no substance to your contention that they died again. But there is Yeshua pointing us to the harvest throughout the Gospels, and the legal harvest requirements of the Torah. That is substantially more than what you can show to support your view about these resurrected saints.

And my counter to your use of John 3:13 is valid. True, only Yeshua ascended. But it still doesn't negate that Enoch and Elijah also went to heaven. They were taken as opposed to ascending on their own like Yeshua did. Yeshua was not taken back to heaven, he went back under his own authority and power. The righteous, when removed, are forcibly taken or removed. It is not by their own power. So they never do ascend like Yeshua did.

There are at least a minimum of 4 resurrections... after the death and resurrection of Messiah, laid out in scripture. The Mat 27 account is one, the two witnesses of Revelation are another. Those are two, and anyone that has read anything in scripture knows there is more than just those two instances. And one of the resurrections is for the unrighteous.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Possible Time Line BUILT on >>>> Matthew 24:

1. Begin the birth of the "Church Age" of Grace...Pentecost...Acts 1 + 2

2. Jesus promises to be with us in Spirit until the "end of the age" ''''Matthew 28 end

...ascends/descends from the Mount of Olives...Matt 20:20; Zechariah 14:4; Acts 1:11

3. Pre-Tribulation "Birth Pangs"...NOW!...Matthew 24: 4-8

4. Begin TRIBULATION...first 3.5 years of Daniel's 7 years (Chapters 11-12)

...rise of the anti-christ + REBUILD the TEMPLE! = his appearance in that TEMPLE...Matthew 24:9-20,22

...WHEN TRIBULATION begins? TIME Unknown!...Only the FATHER!

5. Rapture and Second Coming...finally to a throne in Jerusalem as King of Kings . 1 Thess. 4; Revelation 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:52

6. Begin GREAT TRIBULATION...Last 3.5 years of Daniel's 7 years...leading up to Armageddon...Matthew 24:21-27

7. Begin the Millenium Reign...Satan Bound...Revelation 20...Jesus wins!

8. Planet Earth and unsaved inhabitants destroyed by fire. 2 Peter 3

9. New Heavens + New Earth + New Jerusalem = eternal spiritual realm...Revelation 21

 

[keras]

If they were righteous, why would they need to die again? The writer made it very clear in Hebrews 9:27 that we are appointed once to die. Obviously Lazarus and Jairus' daughter were exceptions. These were to show that Yeshua was who He claimed to be. And we have no indication that they were considered saints like those in Mat 27.

Your mention of Lazarus and the girl, who were brought back to life and yet died again, proves my point.
Those saints raised with Jesus and the martyrs who will be brought back to life at His Return, are all just in physical bodies and can die again.
But as Revelation 20:6 says:.... over them, the second death has no power. You avoided this truth.

All of your, and of every 'rapture to heaven' believer thinking is; immortality is received by everyone who is raptured and those martyrs, even the 2 Witnesses. But scripture refutes this idea, it is ONLY at the end of the Millennium that the Book of Life is opened and those worthy, AFTER all that must happen, will receive eternal life. Revelation 20:11-15
We Christians, at our conversion receive the promise of immortality, John 3:16, but God is not held to His promise if we fall away from our faith in Him.

Well unlike you, keras, I have to work for a living and run a business, to the tune of about 14 hrs a day. And I have a wife and small farm property to take care of also. I don't have the luxury of playing around on the computer all the time and debate things. Your impatience exhibits a lack of one of the spiritual gifts.

Phew, I sympathize!
I had a 25 acre farm with milking goats, 5 children and a full time job, for a few years. Fortunately it all doesn't last for too long! The goats got sold, the chn left home and the wife took off to live with a woman! Look forward to it!
And I do have a busy life in retirement; I wouldn't spend more that 2 hours max per day on the computer. Often just a few minutes.
I note your continued use of personal accusations. James 4:11-12

 

[Copperhead]

Your mention of Lazarus and the girl, who were brought back to life and yet died again, proves my point.

No, it really doesn't prove your point. A major aspect between these two and those of Mat 27 is that these two were not called saints like the ones in Mat 27. One cannot make a conclusive argument that they were a similar situation in the lack of scriptural support that they were equals.

All of your, and of every 'rapture to heaven' believer thinking is; immortality is received by everyone who is raptured and those martyrs, even the 2 Witnesses. But scripture refutes this idea, it is ONLY at the end of the Millennium that the Book of Life is opened and those worthy, AFTER all that must happen, will receive eternal life. Revelation 20:11-15

That is speaking of the Great White Thrown Judgement. That is not for those made righteous by the blood of Messiah. True, those made righteous will stand before the judgement seat of Messiah (2Cor 5:10), but that is to evaluate our works. In the Greek, called the Bema judgement seat. Some works will be rewarded, some will be burned up. The salvation question has already been decided by our acceptance of Messiah and is not in question. Try not to confuse these two different types of judgements.

The White Throne judgement of Rev 20 is prosecutorial in nature. It is the judgement where the case is made for those who have not accepted Messiah that their condemnation is just. Their works, or sins, will condemn them.

The application of Rev 20 to those righteous by the blood of Messiah is dangerously close to a theology of works righteousness. That it is our works that determine our salvation. Scripture refutes that in many places. We are made righteous only by trust in Messiah. Our works will be rewarded or burned up, but the salvation question has been resolved at our acceptance of Him.

Everyone eventually is afforded immortality. But where one spends that immortality is questionable. And do not confuse rapture with immortality. Those are two different things and may or may not occur at the same time. But regarding those two witnesses of Revelation, I think we can agree that there really is not conditional salvation judgement they are going to go thru. They are the Lord's witnesses, they are empowered by Him. I am pretty confident that they are in union with Messiah and are made righteous by His shed blood. That is not a good example to make your case.

I note your continued use of personal accusations. James 4:11-12

Your hermeneutics is extremely flawed. I did not speak evil of you, as the passage in James is about. I made mention that your impatience was showing a lack of that spiritual gift. If I called you a liar, a cheat, and a dishonest person, an adulterer, etc without just cause, then the passage in James would apply. Be careful, lest you are found making the judgement you are accusing others of. Better to avoid going down that road.

 

[BABerean2]

Begin TRIBULATION...first 3.5 years of Daniel's 7 years (Chapters 11-12)

Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

.

 

[keras]

No, it really doesn't prove your point. A major aspect between these two and those of Mat 27 is that these two were not called saints like the ones in Mat 27. One cannot make a conclusive argument that they were a similar situation in the lack of scriptural support that they were equals.

It does prove my point: that people raised from the dead can die again.
Quite commonly, people die on the operating table and are brought back to life. They all die again eventually.
The martyrs raised at the Return, Revelation 20:4, are not said to become immortal and as Martha said; I know Lazarus will rise again on the last day...John 11:24 Jesus demonstrated His power to bring people back to life, not to confer immortality.

When is the 'last day'? The last day of humankind as we know it, will be when God judges everyone who has ever lived, at the GWT, after the Millennium.

Your hermeneutics is extremely flawed.

Flawed; according to your beliefs; that's all.
The big issue is whether there will be a 'rapture to heaven'. This recent theory discredits itself by being unable to settle as to when it might happen. Pre, Mid, Post, or as some fools say Anytime!

Yu'know, there will be only one way that the end times will unfold. The way God has planned it all to happen. And that way is described fully by the prophets, Amos 3:7, Revelation 1:1, but when people believe fanciful ideas and unscriptural theories, just as Paul said would happen, 2 Timothy 4:3-4, then confusion reigns. Encouraged and helped along by the Author of confusion!

 

[Copperhead]

It does prove my point: that people raised from the dead can die again.

Good morning, brother! Well, no it really doesn't, because there is nothing that says the righteous who were resurrected, died again. You assert that they did, just like I assert they were taken to the Father, and neither one of us has conclusive scriptural proof of either position. I am relying on what Paul had to say about us dying once, and what Yeshua said about the harvest and the example of the harvest given in Leviticus 23. While that indeed is not conclusive evidence for my assertion, it is good circumstantial evidence for it.

Lazarus was never said to be righteous at the time of his resurrection like the saints of Mat 27:52 were. So it is a little bit of a stretch to equate the two examples. Martha just said that she knew Lazarus would rise at the last day. But that is a statement of what she thought, not a statement to hang doctrine on. You really have to be careful picking verses here and there to make the case. Especially when it is a statement made by a individual in their despair, like Martha.

Flawed; according to your beliefs; that's all.
The big issue is whether there will be a 'rapture to heaven'. This recent theory discredits itself by being unable to settle as to when it might happen. Pre, Mid, Post, or as some fools say Anytime!

Now you are twisting things. I said your hermeneutics was flawed regarding you saying I was speaking evil of you and pointing to James, when all I was doing was making an observation about not exhibiting one of the gifts of the spirit. Now you are trying to use that statement in a different context altogether. Look, Keras, we are never going to get anywhere if we play games like this. It is not right to take something I said in one context and try to make it fit in another in an attempt to discredit a position. You may not agree, and that is fine as long as it is not regarding the essential doctrines of the faith, but I think it is beneath you to do things like this and twist my words and subscribe them to another context than what they were written.

Your point is valid about only one way the end times will unfold. Hey! We found some agreement! Praise be to the Lord! But on the other hand, neither of us has an exclusive and we are both flawed men stuck in these bodies and seeing things thru a glass darkly. Neither of us has the end times deal all worked out to perfection. We try to comfort ourselves that we do have it all worked out, but we don't.

Have a blessed day, Brother! My best to you and yours.

Cliff

 

[seventysevens]

It is a major huge stretch to try to compare someone who is called clinically dead -as in 7-8 minutes to
those who were dead in their graves for generations that were resurrected back into living bodies and went into towns to visit with people - in all likelihood they were telling people of the miraculous Jesus who brought them back to life

to try to compare such is far fetched stretch in order to disregard the truth that those people went up to heaven with Jesus after their visit in the towns
if they died again it would serve no purpose for it to be in scripture as it would be contrary to other scriptures and do nothing but cause confusion

It is only those who will go to any extreme no matter what to suppose their view is correct when scripture is not in alignment with a view that those people died a second time and would rise from the dead a second time

 

[keras]

Have a blessed day, Brother! My best to you and yours.
Cliff

Thanks Cliff.
I believe the time for the end time events is very close, so we will be here to see God's plans unfold. Going to be interesting and I fully agree that everyone, incl myself, will say: I didn't see THAT coming!

It is a major huge stretch to try to compare someone who is called clinically dead -as in 7-8 minutes to
those who were dead in their graves for generations that were resurrected back into living bodies and went into towns to visit with people - in all likelihood they were telling people of the miraculous Jesus who brought them back to life

to try to compare such is far fetched stretch in order to disregard the truth that those people went up to heaven with Jesus after their visit in the towns
if they died again it would serve no purpose for it to be in scripture as it would be contrary to other scriptures and do nothing but cause confusion

It is only those who will go to any extreme no matter what to suppose their view is correct when scripture is not in alignment with a view that those people died a second time and would rise from the dead a second time

Lazarus and the girl were well and truly dead before Jesus raised them. They died again. They will be raised again on the Last Day.

Maybe those saints raised with Jesus did go to heaven, you assume that, I doubt it. Such a thing as people going to live in heaven contradicts much scripture of why and what we humans are made for.
Never forget how lowly we humans are and how high Almighty God is. To equate us with Him, is extremely pretentious and the opposite of humbleness.
He has myriads of angels to serve Him in heaven, we are not needed there, but we do have tasks to do on earth.
Two plain scriptures prove that God's holy people are on earth when the Anti-Christ takes control for his 'little season' of 1260 days. Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 And do not think they must be Jews or new converts, because Revelation 12:6-17 proves they are the Christian people, the one people of God.
Your precious 'rapture to heaven' theory is nothing but a delusion and is one of Satan's most successful lies.

 

[seventysevens]

Maybe those saints raised with Jesus did go to heaven, you assume that, I doubt it. Such a thing as people going to live in heaven contradicts much scripture of why and what we humans are made for.

The thing you seem not to do is consider all the other bible matters that reveal the person of God - His traits - His character the multitude of things He has revealed about how He does things .
Scripture is there by the Holy Spirit for a distinct purpose to learn - it not just some small talk jibber jabber - as such there is point and purpose in God telling us that Jesus went to Abraham bosom and took those people to heaven - there is point and purpose in God telling us that many people came out of their graves after being dead for hundreds of years and went into the town to talk to people .

Common sense thinking tells us that the topic they would be talking about is they were dead and now they are alive and Jesus brought them back to life ,
If you answered the knock on the door and your best friend who died 20 years ago that died in your arms after a car crash and you saw him at the morgue and his funeral is at your door saying hello - you would be shocked to see him and would be definitely wanting to know how it be possible that he is there and alive and he tells you Jesus raised him back to life.

It would have no value to us to think that he died a second time and would be raised to life a second time as that only causes confusion and God is not an author of confusion 0 but men are,
The most likely reason they were brought back to earth is to prove that Jesus IS who he says He IS and has power over death to raise people back to life and doing it with many people is proof of that .
Scripture does not say if they had a glorified body but that does not mean they did not have one .
if they continued life as normal again it would cause even more confusion as people would be wondering why they did not go to heaven as the scripture teaches we do after death is to be with the Lord , If they remained living there everyone would be wondering if they would live forever and if so why are they on earth with other mere mortals

Jamees 3:1
3 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
Judge not lest you be judged for the measure you judge others you will be judged by that same measure

Your precious 'rapture to heaven' theory is nothing but a delusion and is one of Satan's most successful lies.

The fact that you continually want to start fights by these type of comments is going to cause you more harm than you realize when you face Jesus unless you repent of it and stop it
You are making a mockery of Gods word with false statements and it will bite you hard in the end

 

[keras]

The fact that you continually want to start fights by these type of comments is going to cause you more harm than you realize when you face Jesus unless you repent of it and stop it
You are making a mockery of Gods word with false statements and it will bite you hard in the end

What I want, is for people to see and understand the truth of the Prophetic Word.
I post scriptures that prove how we must trust in the Lord's protection during all that must come. And when I see posts that promote another scenario for us Christians, then I challenge it.
The 'rapture to heaven' believers have not and I know they cannot; provide scriptural proof for a rapture. All they have is assumptions, inferences and misinterpretations of what is prophesied to happen.
So who is it that making a mockery of God's Word?

 

[seventysevens]

What I want, is for people to see and understand the truth of the Prophetic Word.

Everyone wants that - but that does not mean you have the final say on the matter

I post scriptures that prove how we must trust in the Lord's protection during all that must come. .

We trust in the Lords Word -What the LORD says He will do and include ALL of it and not just what is forming a prejudicial preference like you do

And when I see posts that promote another scenario for us Christians, then I challenge it

And likewise you shall be challenged when your posting is based on preference rather than the whole truth

The 'rapture to heaven' believers have not and I know they cannot; provide scriptural proof for a rapture. All they have is assumptions, inferences and misinterpretations of what is prophesied to happen.

All you have is assumptions, inferences and misinterpretations of what is prophesied to happen and you cannot prove any so called U turn going up then straight back down which accomplishes nothing at all -
THE HARVEST CYCLE AND THE HOLIDAYS OF PESACH, SHAVUOTH AND SUCCOTH

So who is it that making a mockery of God's Word?

Your precious 'rapture to heaven' theory is nothing but a delusion and is one of Satan's most successful lies.

You continual belittling of things you do not understand; just because you do not agree
You think that you are right when you are not then you proceed to belittle people for what they believe - just as I have posted earlier - you just don't understand and you have no way to disprove it - You do not understand the correct Last trump tradition of the ancient Jewish Laws and traditions and all you choose to do is attack and belittle people who have a better understanding than what you have.

 

[keras]

We trust in the Lords Word -What the LORD says He will do and include ALL of it and not just what is forming a prejudicial preference like you do

Believing in 'rapture to heaven', is about the biggest prejudicial preference ever!

You continual belittling of things you do not understand; just because you do not agree

Actually I do not personally belittle anyone, it is your problem when your beliefs are challenged and you find no ammunition to prove them.
It would be so easy to shut me up; just post a scripture that says: 'God will take His people up to heaven'. or similar.
If you can't do that, then you must reconsider your beliefs before its too late.

 

[seventysevens]

Believing in 'rapture to heaven', is about the biggest prejudicial preference ever!

Actually I do not personally belittle anyone, it is your problem when your beliefs are challenged and you find no ammunition to prove them.
It would be so easy to shut me up; just post a scripture that says: 'God will take His people up to heaven'. or similar.
If you can't do that, then you must reconsider your beliefs before its too late.

You have shown that you have no understanding of what the bible really teaches since you have modified what it says,
Your arrogance will get you what you say you want - Back in the OT it shows that Almighty God tells his people that he is their king and the people have no need of a human king; but the people say they want a king on earth and the Almighty tells them they don't need a king on earth because they have their King who created the earth.

But the people insisted they need a king on earth ; so the Almighty says OK you shall have a human king on earth so that you will learn through that experience that you should have believed the creator of the earth and yourselves is sufficient , and while some of those kings were good in some ways they became corrupted with sin in several ways and still the people don't want to accept that their King in heaven is better than any human king.
The scripture tell us that in prayer to believe that which you have prayed for has already come to pass even though you do not see any evidence of it having come to pass and it Will come to pass

The same shall come upon you that because you insist and even demand that what you believe is true and you must go through the GT in order to prove how you observe the Almighty - the Almighty looks upon those who believe as you do and insist as you do and gives you according to your belief - the Almighty will say since you insist that you need to go through the Great Tribulation - You shall be granted your wish and you will go through the GT while the others who believed the Almighty and trust the Almighty and put their faith in the Almighty Gods own words they will not go through the GT because of their faith and trust in the Almighty .

Those like you who choose to insist that you must go through the GT and lack faith and trust in the Almighty God - you will go through the experience of the GT because that is what you have chosen!

Your persistent evil heart of ridiculing people who believe differently than you will cause you to go through the GT and after you are in it and you realize that other born again Christians experienced the harpazo/rapture, then you will get your wish to go through the GT and tell people to follow the Lord God almighty and after you suffer through the GT then you will be allowed to be with the rest of the Bride of Christ at the beginning of the millennium of Jesus Kingdom on earth
You will receive that which you insist on while other brethren are with Jesus as He said he will keep them out from the GT as they believed what he said they will not be in it
perhaps after you are in the GT and you repent of your evil speech; you may be a part of the second harvest

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

this is not a new take on the 'rapture'. it is the same incorrect take that is always peddled to people with itching ears.

there is no 'whisked away' rapture.

Well at least one good thing came out of it, this great song:

Another take on the Rapture

 

[Copperhead]

Getting back on my original assertion that the resurrected of Matthew 27:52 were taken to be with the Father, I came across a treatise on the subject by Dr. Norman Geisler done in 2014. He outlined many of the early church writers comments on this passage, and many of them assert that these resurrected saints were indeed taken by Yeshua to be with the Father. Some of these writers either knew the Apostles themselves or were closely associated with disciples of the Apostles. Either way, they were in close proximity of when the account was written, confirm that the account by Matthew is legit, outlined that these resurrected saints were not in the same league as other resurrections like Lazarus and Jairus' daughter, and their comments would have been quickly attacked if they were an error. But there is no evidence that they were assailed for that position.

I still believe that, while Yeshua is the first fruits of the resurrection, the OT saints resurrected shortly after His resurrection are the first fruits of the harvest and were taken to the Father by our High Priest, Yeshua, in accordance with the requirements of Leviticus 23.

And that leaves the main part of the harvest, or the removal of the Ekklesia, which like a normal harvest, takes place at one time. And then, the gleanings harvest of the GT period, which like a gleanings of the field harvest, occur over a protracted period. All in accordance in Leviticus 23.

 

[keras]

I still believe that, while Yeshua is the first fruits of the resurrection, the OT saints resurrected shortly after His resurrection are the first fruits of the harvest and were taken to the Father by our High Priest, Yeshua, in accordance with the requirements of Leviticus 23.

This idea is merely assumption and speculation. The Bible does not say those saints went to heaven. That idea contradicts the many times Jesus says that humans never go to heaven.

And that leaves the main part of the harvest, or the removal of the Ekklesia, which like a normal harvest, takes place at one time. And then, the gleanings harvest of the GT period, which like a gleanings of the field harvest, occur over a protracted period. All in accordance in Leviticus 23.

More speculation and guesswork, along with a desperate attempt to make the 'rapture to heaven' theory fit a scripture that is talking about a literal grain harvest.

When people read what Seventysevens wrote in #35, they can see how rapture believers have to attack their opponents with threats of being 'left behind' and facing tribulation. They have no scripture to prove their case. The 'rapture to heaven' is a false teaching and will never happen.

 

[Copperhead]

This idea is merely assumption and speculation.

Of course it is, but it well reasoned, based on what those almost on top of the event itself had to say about it. Just because something is not specifically laid out in detail in scripture does not mean it didn't happen. It is a more reasonable assumption to go with what these early Church writers said than what some theologian, almost 20 centuries removed, has to say about it.

Even in scripture itself, there are events that we would have no knowledge of if the writers hadn't quoted non canonical references. For instance, the names of the Egyptian magicians that countered Moses. We wouldn't even known their names if Paul had not used information from either "natural history" by Pliny the Younger, or the Testament of Solomon, or The Apocrophon of Jannes and Jambres The Magicians, which is part of the Chester Beaty papyri. Yet, there is no general disagreement that Paul using one or more of those references was giving us false information.

One of the characteristics of determining if a statement by someone is true or false is how it holds up in the arena of hostile witnesses that would be able to counter it. And the early writers that Dr. Geisler quotes and refers to were never assailed for asserting what they did. That stands up as valid testimony in a court of law.

And while the text of scripture doesn't say where these resurrected saints went, it likewise doesn't state that they weren't taken to heaven. So any assertion by you or anyone else also is assumption and speculation. But unlike mine, without credible early writings regarding your assumption, it stands on far weaker legs than mine does.

More speculation and guesswork, along with a desperate attempt to make the 'rapture to heaven' theory fit a scripture that is talking about a literal grain harvest.

It does beg the question though... why did Yeshua use references to the harvest on many occasions in His discourses? It would seem that He was pointing to something He wanted us to be mindful of. So yet again, my reasoning for equating a series of resurrections with the Leviticus 23 harvest requirements has more reasoned validity than your assertion to the contrary. I have no problem with agreeing with you that my assertion is speculation. But all of our assertions, yours and mine, are based on speculation of what we perceive the scripture as saying. We didn't write the text. We can only reason thru the more difficult parts, relying on a balance of scripture allusions to support or disregard something.

But I would appreciate your presenting any verses that state unequivocally that these OT resurrected saints of Matthew 27 were not taken to heaven. I am sure everyone else reading this would appreciate that as well. It would require specific verses countering that assertion, given that many early Church writers made the same claim I am. It is their testimony of the event that I am basing my position.

Yeshua said that all the scripture was written of Him. Even what would seem as the most disassociated detail. It is not unreasonable to say that the harvest also doesn't speak of Him just as the other feasts of Leviticus 23 do.

 

[Copperhead]

The 'rapture to heaven' is a false teaching and will never happen.

Then how is this possible..... the righteous will rule with Messiah with a rod of iron? Who would they be ruling over that would require a "rod of iron" or heavy hand of judgement for getting out of line?

There has to be a removal of the Ekklesia at some point before the GT period ends. It is those that survive that period and are separated out as Sheep in the Sheep and Goat judgement of Matthew 25 that go into the millennial kingdom and are being ruled over. They certainly are not part of the Ekklesia. And the condition of their being a sheep or a goat is not about being righteous by the blood of Yeshua like the Ekklesia are.

Even Ezekiel says that those who will not go up to Jerusalem annually will have rain withheld from their land. Sounds like some level of rebellion will be going on. And who is the group that Satan is able to muster against the Lord when Satan is released?

Just these situations suggest that those humans that survive the GT period and are considered worthy are allowed to enter the millennial kingdom and repopulate the earth. But residual sin remains. Even with Satan locked up, the heart of mankind remains sinful to the point that when Satan is released, he is able to foment a last major rebellion against the Lord.

And it is the Ekklesia that is ruling over these people with a rod of iron, as per Yeshua's comments in Revelation 2:26-27. Peter's comments that the Ekklesia are a nation and royal priesthood (kings and priests). Do you actually see a nation of kings and priests of the Lord refusing to go to Jerusalem during Tabernacles? Do you see a nation of kings and priests of the Lord siding with Satan when he is released and rebelling against the Lord?