Another take on the Rapture

[keras]

Not sure what the rapture thing has to do with RT...

Replacement theology has been given a bad rap, an 'evil idea', a horrible error, etc, by the 'rapture to heaven' proponents.
They must have a people; namely Jewish Israel on earth, while they, the Church sits in heaven. Doing what there; they don't know.
Neither the 'rapture' or a general Jewish redemption is said to happen anywhere in the Bible.

And the joke is that the 'replacement' of Israel by the Church never happens either. The true church of God consists of every faithful person, now every born again believer, from every race, nation and language, which has been the case since day 1.

 

[Copperhead]

Keras, who is the group that Yeshua is talking to in Hosea and Matthew that committed the offense of rejecting Him before He returned to the Father, and must recognize that offense and petition Him to return before He will? And when they do, per Hosea what becomes of them?

You would be correct that the true church of God consists of every faithful person. What of those who were faithful before the church became an entity at Shavuot 32AD?

As for what the ekklesia will be doing in heaven while the rest of the world implodes, an understanding of the traditional Jewish wedding and the 7 days of the Chupah will help with that. I would recommend books on the subject by Alfred Edersheim and others. As for how the Ekklesia / Church is in relation to Yeshua also, do a study on the katubah or marriage betrothal.

 

[keras]

Keras, who is the group that Yeshua is talking to in Hosea and Matthew that committed the offense of rejecting Him before He returned to the Father, and must recognize that offense and petition Him to return before He will? And when they do, per Hosea what becomes of them?

Sure, there have been and now are many thousands of Jewish Christians. THEY are the remnant as per Romans 9:27 They will join their Faithful Christian brethren; Ezekiel 37, Jeremiah 50:4-5
The rest of the Jesus rejecting Jews will die. Isaiah 22:14, Luke 19:27, +

You would be correct that the true church of God consists of every faithful person. What of those who were faithful before the church became an entity at Shavuot 32AD?

You mean people like Abraham, Joshua and Caleb, etc? Like all the rest of the dead, they await the Great White Throne Judgement of all the people who have ever lived. Revelation 20:15-18
Daniel 12:13 says it correctly about him.
All the names of God's faithful people will be found in the Book of Life and they will go into Eternity with God.

As for what the ekklesia will be doing in heaven while the rest of the world implodes, an understanding of the traditional Jewish wedding and the 7 days of the Chupah will help with that. I would recommend books on the subject by Alfred Edersheim and others. As for how the Ekklesia / Church is in relation to Yeshua also, do a study on the katubah or marriage betrothal.

Pretentious rubbish!
We Christians have work to do here, skiving off is not an option. We are the Lord's witnesses, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Matthew 5:14-16

 

[Choose Wisely]

It is abundantly evident wherein lie the origins of evil. For any "doctrine" that argues in defiance and denial of God's explicit declarations under His New Testament, the only Testament in force and effect, that He has appointed His Son as the complete and exclusive Fulfillment and Heir of His promises and bequests (Galatians 3:16; 2 Corinthians 1:20; Hebrews 1:1,2; Hebrews 9:15-17); qualifies as a "doctrine" which is sourced in evil.

The root issue is not difficult to recognize. Since its beginnings, dispensationalism has incessantly and loudly proclaimed that it is Israel that is the fulfillment and heir of a vast array of God's promises and bequests. One need only read and hear a small fraction of dispensationalism's prodigious prophetic output to recognize that Israel is the chief cornerstone in the foundation of the dispensational prophetic edifice.

Consequently, not even Christ Himself is permitted to replace Israel as the anointed recipient of that which dispensationalism believes it is entitled to. In any and every instance whenever it appears that Israel's entitlements are being questioned, charges such as “calling God a liar”, “anti-Semitic”, "evil", "heretical", and various other epithets are directed at the perceived offender. It is the equivalent of identity politics within the church of God. Thus Christ is denied His own entire, rightful, and exclusive entitlements as Fulfillment and Heir of all of God's promises and bequests.

The reason is self-evident. Israel's removal as the anointed recipient is the equivalent of the removal of dispensationalism's chief cornerstone, and the consequent and unavoidable collapse of the edifice which it supports. The result is effectively dispensational detonation, and the disappearance of a pervasive, not to mention lucrative, presence and influence within the Church.

But Scripture is unequivocal in its declarations, notwithstanding the denials directed at it.

Revelation 19:10
“...the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy”

Israel does not substitute for Jesus.

Jesus declares Himself to be the Fulfillment of all things.

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Other Scriptures confirm His declaration, and further declare Him as Heir of all things.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

There is no substitute for “all”.

In summation of which, Scripture declares:
Colossians 3:11
“...Christ is all, and in all”

Notice that Israel is conspicuous by its absence in the foregoing declarations.

The reason: It's not about Israel.

It's all about Him.

So we see that God has kept His word and restored Israel as a nation.........just as he said he would. This should be a signal for anyone fooled into believing replacement theology, that it is a failed theory. But instead you want to claim that the error is not your own. Now you claim that others....who rightly divide... are in error because they are substituting Israel for Jesus.

That's a bunch of made up poppycock. How do you guys come up with this stuff?

 

[Copperhead]

We Christians have work to do here, skiving off is not an option. We are the Lord's witnesses

Yeah, and boy have we done a bang up job over the last century. Tell, me something though. Why is it that when you disagree with a position someone might hold you feel the need to make some derogatory comment about it? It really demeans your credibility. And it really helps the case about being the Lord's witnesses when others who don't know the Lord see that going on. Boy, really makes them want to identify with the Lord. Sarcasm intended.

 

[Copperhead]

I know many just love to attack the idea that israel might actually still have a role to play. Nothing is going to sway me from sticking to the idea that Israel still needs to be in place to bring the return of the Messiah (Hosea 5:15 / Matthew 23:39 both Judah and Israel in play... read Hosea 5:14) and that is primarily because of the promise of YHVH. The sun is out today, the moon was out last night, and Jeremiah 31:35-37 is still true.

That doesn't mean in any way that all of physical corporate Israel are saved. That will be a future event.

And it can't mean that the redeemed of the ekkelsia is now Israel. In a spiritual sense, in terms of the faith of Abraham, it would be true. But Yeshua in both Hosea and Matthew states very clearly that physical Israel, the ones who rejected Him, will have to acknowledge that offense and return to Him and petition His return.... before He will return. So if corporate Israel is no longer in play, then there will never be any return of Yeshua either. One can't do a smorgasbord thing when it comes to prophetic statements. The ones they don't like, ignore or denigrate.

And I am convinced more than ever that those who disagree with the idea that Israel still has this role to play, don't really understand what the GT period is intended for and to whom is it intended.

 

[jgr]

So we see that God has kept His word and restored Israel as a nation.........just as he said he would. This should be a signal for anyone fooled into believing replacement theology, that it is a failed theory. But instead you want to claim that the error is not your own. Now you claim that others....who rightly divide... are in error because they are substituting Israel for Jesus.

That's a bunch of made up poppycock. How do you guys come up with this stuff?

What "error" are you referring to? The "error" that not Israel, but Christ, and Christ alone, is God's sole and exclusive New Testament Fulfillment of all of the promises, and Heir of all things? That Scripture's declarations below are in "error"?

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

If they are in error, then produce some unassailable New Testament proof of the error.

You'll have to find some way to circumvent the word "all".

We come up with this stuff by citing the errant claims of the modernist sources who perpetuate it.

 

[Copperhead]

If they are in error, then produce some unassailable New Testament proof of the error.

Scripture you posted is not in error, but you may be.

Romans 9:3-5 (NKJV) For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

this statement by Paul is present tense, not past tense. His physical brethren in the flesh, Jacob, still retain the adoption, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the service to God..... and the promises.

Many confuse final things like salvation, heirship, etc. It is true that those who are redeemed are heirs to the promises, but Jeremiah makes it clear that eventually all Jacob will be saved. All of Paul's physical brethren of the flesh. Of whom pertain the promises. Of course Yeshua is also heir to those promises. He is also of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Israelites are His brethren in the flesh just like they are Paul's.

Now, the scripture you posted was written by Paul. The scripture I posted was written by Paul. No conflict.

 

[BABerean2]

Many confuse final things like salvation, heirship, etc. It is true that those who are redeemed are heirs to the promises, but Jeremiah makes it clear that eventually all Jacob will be saved. All of Paul's physical brethren of the flesh. Of whom pertain the promises. Of course Yeshua is also heir to those promises. He is also of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Israelites are His brethren in the flesh just like they are Paul's.

Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.

Will Judas be saved?

Will Korah and those who rebelled against Moses be saved?

How about a modern Jew who rejects Christ, and dies today? Will they be saved?


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.

The word "also" is not found in the verse above.

The word "also" is not found in the words of Christ in Matthew chapter 21 where He revealed that the "son" is the "heir" to the land, and that the kingdom would be taken from those who reject the "chief cornerstone".

.

 

[jgr]

Scripture you posted is not in error, but you may be.

Romans 9:3-5 (NKJV) For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

this statement by Paul is present tense, not past tense. His physical brethren in the flesh, Jacob, still retain the adoption, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the service to God..... and the promises.

Many confuse final things like salvation, heirship, etc. It is true that those who are redeemed are heirs to the promises, but Jeremiah makes it clear that eventually all Jacob will be saved. All of Paul's physical brethren of the flesh. Of whom pertain the promises. Of course Yeshua is also heir to those promises. He is also of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Israelites are His brethren in the flesh just like they are Paul's.

Now, the scripture you posted was written by Paul. The scripture I posted was written by Paul. No conflict.

Then Paul should have been ecstatic in the belief that "all Jacob will be saved".

Instead,

Romans 9
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Paul knew that all of the old testament benefits which had been conferred on his countrymen were of no avail in their salvation.

He confirms Isaiah's declaration.

Romans 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

The remnant is the faithful obedient elect by grace.

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Their flesh "profiteth nothing".

Hence Paul's anguish.

 

[Copperhead]

Then Paul should have been ecstatic in the belief that "all Jacob will be saved".

Why? Especially since Jeremiah already said it!

Jeremiah 30:7 (NKJV) Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

But Paul did in fact say it....

Romans 11:25-27 (NKJV Strong's) For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

"Will be saved".... future tense. Israel is the name given by YHVH to Jacob. It would have been exactly the same if Paul would have stated "And so all Jacob will be saved". Paul and Jeremiah are in agreement. The testimony of two witnesses (OT and NT) fulfill the requirement of Torah that a matter can only be decided on the testimony of two witnesses.

 

[Copperhead]

Will Judas be saved?

Will Korah and those who rebelled against Moses be saved?

How about a modern Jew who rejects Christ, and dies today? Will they be saved?

I can be a little slow at times. What do those examples have to do with the future salvation of the people of Jacob as Jeremiah and Paul state?

 

[keras]

I can be a little slow at times. What do those examples have to do with the future salvation of the people of Jacob as Jeremiah and Paul state?

Who are the people of Jacob?
Just those who call themselves Jews? That belief is impossible.
I read in a news item today, that the world Jewish population is 14.7 million. This is far from the prophesied multitude of Israelites; as many as the sands of the sea.
You make the common mistake of thinking the Jews are all of Israel. They themselves, are quite aware that they represent just the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin. It is obvious that the tribes who received the Blessings of Jacob and Moses are not the Jews, but mainly the Christian peoples.

These truths conflict with the 'rapture to heaven' theory, which is why you will reject them. To your detriment and loss.

 

[BABerean2]

I can be a little slow at times. What do those examples have to do with the future salvation of the people of Jacob as Jeremiah and Paul state?

Apparently you did not mean what you said.

You said all of Jacob's descendants would be saved. Now you are acting like that is a ridiculous statement.

How about explaining exactly what you meant.

In Romans 9 Paul said not all Israel is Israel, and also said there is a difference between Israel of the flesh and Israel of the promise, in Romans 9:6-8.

In Romans 9:27 Paul confirms that only a "remnant" of Israel will be saved.

Do you think Paul changed his mind in Romans 11?

Paul uses the two Olive Trees, made up of both Israelite and Gentile branches, as a symbol of the Church in Romans 11.

I have heard preachers on television change the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing, in Romans 11:26.
Paul had just described in Romans 11:24 that the Israelites broken off of the Olive tree could be grafted back into the tree through faith in Christ.
This is the manner in which all of Israel of the promise, instead of flesh will be saved through faith in Christ.
Paul provides no path to salvation outside of the Church in the passage.


The Uppercase words below are quoted from the Old Testament.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;
Rom 11:27 FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

NKJV

Compare the Old Testament text above to what is found below.

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

When did the Deliverer come out of Zion and take away sin?
.

 

[Douggg]

Just more of your mumbo jumbo.

I don't believe in a dual covenant and yet you used the same false claim with me.

There is only one covenant. The difference is the timing of the acceptance of Jesus as Messiah. After the Church is raptured........pretrib, He will turn His attention to His ELECT.

Replacement theology is a failed theory and according to Dr Reagan has an evil origin.

Basically.

There is only one way to Salvation. There multiple covenants in the bible. But only one covenant for Salvation.

The rapture could happen pretrib (pre-70th week) and we should be looking for it. It will take place at a time we think not.

Israel, them of whom are currently unbelievers in Jesus, will end up go through the great tribulation. I would not say "intended" for them, but as a consequence of embracing another as their messiah.

The great tribulation that comes upon the world - will be started by a major move by Satan to be worshiped by the inhabitants of the earth. There will be conspiracy between the person identified as the little horn, the prince who shall come, the Antichrist, the revealed man of sin, the beast - and Satan, to make the move.

 

[Copperhead]

You said all of Jacob's descendants would be saved. Now you are acting like that is a ridiculous statement.

I meant it in the same context and Paul and Jeremiah meant it. That eventually, all of corporate Israel will be saved. That doesn't mean every individual from every era that is of Jacob is saved. That would be silly. The same can be said of those in the Church. The redeemed of the church will all be saved, but not every one who is baptized will be saved.

 

[Choose Wisely]

What "error" are you referring to? The "error" that not Israel, but Christ, and Christ alone, is God's sole and exclusive New Testament Fulfillment of all of the promises, and Heir of all things? That Scripture's declarations below are in "error"?

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

If they are in error, then produce some unassailable New Testament proof of the error.

You'll have to find some way to circumvent the word "all".

We come up with this stuff by citing the errant claims of the modernist sources who perpetuate it.

Dude, stop with the straw man argument garbage. Why can't any of you replacement theology believers ever stick with what is being said. It's always gotta be putting words into peoples mouths because your replacement theology argument doesn't hold up to scripture. Is that what they teach you guys? Make stuff up and act like it's what I said and then post of bunch of scriptures that prove I'm wrong..........when I never said that to begin with.

These threads are just littered with straw man arguments and cut and paste answers. Never are the points properly addressed. Just words put in peoples mouth to keep others from the truth.

 

[Copperhead]

Israel, them of whom are currently unbelievers in Jesus, will end up go through the great tribulation. I would not say "intended" for them, but as a consequence of embracing another as their messiah.

I would suggest that the GT period, along with the rest of the world, has as one of it's main goals the driving of corporate Israel to the wall to finally get them to pull their head out of their backside, recognize who Yeshua is, and petition Him to rescue them. That is what Hosea was talking about.

Hosea 5:14 - 6:2 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah. (that means both Judah and Israel are in play here. Can't play some silly game about lost tribes)
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place (He had to leave His place in order to return to it. It is Yeshua)
Till they acknowledge their offense. (See Matthew 23:39 Yeshua will not return to earth TILL they acknowledge their offense of rejecting Him)
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.” (affliction - Jeremiah 30:7 - Great Tribulation)

1 Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us; (could mean 2 days, 2 years 2000 years Psalms 90:4 2 Peter 3:8)
On the third day He will raise us up, (third day, probably the Millennial kingdom in view)
That we may live in His sight.

And therein is the big idea that many in the Church fail to acknowledge. Israel has a definite purpose still in God's plan. That doesn't mean all individual Jews are saved, but the corporate entity of Israel will indeed be saved in the final analysis. That same way as anyone else..... thru Yeshua.

 

[jgr]

Why? Especially since Jeremiah already said it!

Jeremiah 30:7 (NKJV) Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

But Paul did in fact say it....

Romans 11:25-27 (NKJV Strong's) For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

"Will be saved".... future tense. Israel is the name given by YHVH to Jacob. It would have been exactly the same if Paul would have stated "And so all Jacob will be saved". Paul and Jeremiah are in agreement. The testimony of two witnesses (OT and NT) fulfill the requirement of Torah that a matter can only be decided on the testimony of two witnesses.

Paul further describes the reason for his anguish.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

He recognizes that there are two Israels.

All Israel: Children of God, children of the promise
Of Israel: Not all Israel, children of the flesh, not the children of God

Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The "all Israel" who shall be saved in Romans 11:26 is the "all Israel" -- the children of God and of the promise -- of Romans 9:6.

The "of Israel" -- the children of the flesh who are not the children of God -- will not be saved.

"All Israel" are the faithful obedient believing elect remnant saved by grace.

"Of Israel" are the unfaithful disobedient unbelieving unsaved remainder.

 

[jgr]

Dude, stop with the straw man argument garbage. Why can't any of you replacement theology believers ever stick with what is being said. It's always gotta be putting words into peoples mouths because your replacement theology argument doesn't hold up to scripture. Is that what they teach you guys? Make stuff up and act like it's what I said and then post of bunch of scriptures that prove I'm wrong..........when I never said that to begin with.

These threads are just littered with straw man arguments and cut and paste answers. Never are the points properly addressed. Just words put in peoples mouth to keep others from the truth.

Awaiting your New Testament Scripture.