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Featured Another take on the Rapture

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Copperhead, Mar 22, 2018.

  1. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Don't shoot me, I am only the messenger. I came across this video yesterday and it has a interesting twist on the Rapture. Even if one doesn't agree, it is a very interesting video nonetheless.

     
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  2. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    .
     
  3. R. Hartono

    R. Hartono Well-Known Member

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    Are you sayin the wise virgins will be lead astray by Lord Jesus ?
     
  4. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    No, he is saying that Isaac Newton, who held to a pre-trib position 100 years before Darby showed up, didn’t exist. And also that he is incapable of critiquing, on his own, the video preceding the one he countered with. I watched the video he posted, I am not convinced he watched the other one before countering with his.

    I found that left behind video somewhat playing slight of hand tricks. For instance, where it offered $10K to anyone who could produce one verse about the rapture, but then only showed lay people who may not be well read regarding scripture. And as happens when news media plays a cut and paste editing game on TV, there is no way to know for a fact that what they couldn’t find a verse for was regarding the rapture question.

    Some argue that rapture is not in the Bible. That is only because they have never seen the Latin Bible.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  5. tranquil

    tranquil Newbie

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    this is not a new take on the 'rapture'. it is the same incorrect take that is always peddled to people with itching ears.

    there is no 'whisked away' rapture.
     
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  6. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Well, the word harpazo is in the text of the NT, and that literally means “snatched away” or forcibly taken. The Latin Vulgate used raptus in translating harpazo, and that is the etymology basis for the English word rapture. So the idea is in scripture.
     
  7. loNerpt

    loNerpt New Member

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    watched it whole , OP
    very refreshing , the first mins

    ..but the truth is , as often , in the middle -
    no there won't be a massive rapture per 'left behind'
    yes sadly many many will find themselves in a sudden dark world

    but there *is* a group , who will meet heaven's reality ,
    namely the 144,000 ,
    and that can be you, me , others on this forum , etc [so - not : "144,000 jews"]
    ...because , at the moment théy will encounter eden's realm , the world will get dark .

    not inverse.
    satan is now doing everything to not let to complete that number [of 144,000]
    because the moment that number is full , he will get thrown to earth from his high place

    the 144,000
    will come to the rescue of all those millions [of believers] ,
    who saw too late how serious the situation was,
    and now find themselves in a dark world ..

    and this all can happen any day now - please believe me
     
  8. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    Wrong !
     
  9. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

    2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


    There will be no second chances at His Second Coming.

    .
     
  10. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    True, there will be no second chances at His second coming. That will be when he judges the nations and we see the separation of the sheep and goats. Matthew 25:32.

    The confusion seems to be between "meeting Him in the air" as per 1 Thes 4:17 and our gathering to Him versus His coming to earth where he stands on the mount of olives as per Zech 14:4 after He goes out to do battle the nations that come against Jerusalem.

    The first coming was when He physically was on the earth. The second coming will be physically on the earth as well. For the second to have any true meaning, it must be like the first. But in between, there will be the harvest where those that believe will be gathered unto Him, along with the resurrected believers and meet Him in the air. Descending from Heaven as per 1 Thes 4 does not suggest that He physically comes to earth. The passage only says that those who are resurrected and those who are in Messiah will be gathered to Him in the air.

    And the harvest is the key. Messiah pointed us to the harvest of Lev 23. There is the first fruits, which are waved before the Lord. Messiah and those who were resurrected at the time of His death on the cross (Matt 27:52) were the first fruits. Messiah Himself was resurrected on the Feast of First Fruits to make that point about as clear as it could be. There will be the main harvest (1Thes 4:17) and then there will be the gleanings (Matt 25:32).

    This should not be equated with the second coming where He physically comes to earth and separates the sheep (future believers after the main harvest and gathering of 1 Thes 4) and those that remain unbelievers. If He is separating the sheep (believers) from the unblievers, and doing it physically on earth, how is that we are gathered to meet Him in the air? Simple analysis suggests that they are separate events.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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  12. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    False - no soup for you ! ;)
     
  13. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    And here is another problem, BABerean2, how many resurrections and raptures (removal, caught up, snatched away, etc) are there? 2? How about a minimum of 6, at least.

    There was the rapture of Enoch, which by the way, preceded the calamity that God poured out on the earth during Noah's time. And given that Midrash exposition of the scripture says that prophecy is not only prediction, but pattern (a expositional standard established by those who wrote the Bible from the Prophets to the Apostles), we see that with Enoch.

    It could be argued that Noah and his family, being taken away and protected from the flood event by being sealed by the Lord inside the ark, seven days before the flood event started, was also a pattern that accords with Midrash exposition of the scripture.

    There was the removal of Elijah.

    There was the removal of those that were resurrected at the time of Messiah's death. The First Fruits of the Harvest in keeping with Lev 23. And this was after Yeshua talked about the end times events. This couldn't have been either the first or second resurrection, yet they were indeed resurrected saints seen by many. Another Midrash of the end time scenario where the future resurrection will be seen by many.

    There will be the resurrection of the dead and removal first then the removal of the living believers at or before the start of Daniel's 70th week. Then there is the resurrection of the two witnesses. Then there is the resurrection of the unrighteous dead at the end of the millennial reign.

    There is the events of Absalom and David. Absalom (Av Shalom = Father of Peace), a picture of the false Messiah of the end, took the kingdom and established himself as king over Israel, in similar fashion as the false father of peace takes over control of the earth. David (the forerunner and picture of the Messiah to come after him) along with those that are loyal to him (those the believe he is king and follow him), stay secured in Hebron (Hevron = Heaven) for 7 years until Absalom is defeated and killed. And how was Absalom defeated? Absalom's pride was his long flowing hair. He was defeated when his hair (pride) was caught in the branch (Messiah, branch of David). The entire story a wonderful illustration and a pattern (Midrash) of the end times.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
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  14. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    We who refute and speak against the 'rapture to heaven' doctrine, do so out of concern for our fellow Christians.

    There is no definitive scripture that says God intends to take His people up to heaven in these end times. There are, in fact quite a few that say He won't! John 3:13, John 17:15, +

    We are aware of the problem of many Christians, in that the 'rapture' is the only teaching for the Church, before Jesus Returns. One American I spoke to said: The rapture is all I have ever been taught.

    This is a very sad state of affairs, as this false theory has set up many to fall from their faith, when they expect to be raptured, doesn't happen.

    Here is a quote from Art Katz, a messianic Jew: Nothing has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship and maturity that can stand strong in faith, in these end times; than the mistaken idea of a rapture to heaven, so they won’t have to face the Lord’s wrath.

    What we are told to do when things get bad, is to 'Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved.' Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

    Also, with the 'rapture' belief, you miss out on the amazing promises of God, of how He will protect and bless His faithful people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land.

    There are many prophesies telling us about God's plans, do not make the mistake of attributing His Blessings to the Jews. They have lost the Kingdom, Matthew 21:43, and we Christians, Jew and Gentile, are the inheritors of God's promises. Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:26-29
     
  15. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    That concern will come back to bite you when you meet your maker - just because you don't agree does not make it wrong - there are a few different views - people should focus on spreading the gospel of Jesus and not insisting that what they believe is right and anyone who does not is wrong - that is what the Pharisees did
    In over 40 years of studying prophecy and being involved in ministry I have never met nor heard of any true born-again Jesus following Christian losing their faith over the rapture teaching and never even one who ever even thought of losing their faith over it - if it doesn't happen when we think it will and the Lord tarries the that is up to the Lord . There are people who profess to be Christian but will not give up their fornication or gay homosexual lifestyle or simply lukewarm Christians that may lose their faith as they don't have a real relationship with Jesus in the first place
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
  16. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Keras, i take it you didn't even do more than a casual look at what I posted, if even that much. Oh well, that was to be expected. As opposed to meaningful discussion on the details, we get warmed over canned arguments.

    Your use of these is extremely flawed. While it is true that none has ascended to heaven per John 3:13, that doesn't mean no one has gone to heaven. Enoch and Elijah for two. But they did not ascend, they were taken. The context of that passage is that no one of their own steam has ascended to Heaven. Only the Lord. The scripture does say that there will be those taken. That is it meaning of the Greek Harpazo and Latin Raptus. And John 17:15, Yeshua's prayer was answered. None of the Disciples were taken out. They all eventually died here on earth. That doesn't mean they won't be resurrected and taken at a later time.

    And what of the two witnesses in Revelation. You might have a flawed translation I am not aware of, but in all the major translations I have seen, those two guys are resurrected and raptured (come up, caught up, snatch away, removed) about as plain as can be.

    And what of the righteous that were resurrected at the time of the crucifixion? Matthew 27:52. Was that just a do over? I think not. Paul told us that we only die once. They were indeed the righteous dead that were resurrected after Yeshua paid the price for sin on the cross. The text doesn't say, but based on the legal prescriptions of the harvest in Leviticus 23, Yeshua, who is now our High Priest, took those resurrected righteous to the Father as the First Fruits of the harvest of the saints. And there is not one verse that counters that assumption. So right there, we have a pre-trib rapture of the saints that occurred after Yeshua's death that paid the penalty.

    So you are then saying that salvation is conditional on one's view of eschatology? Wow, that is quite a stretch. That is what I read in that comment. Those with a "rapture' belief will not experience the promises of God. That would mean they are not considered righteous. Might want to rethink that position. That is dangerously close to entering the kingdom of the cults. If it is not what you were saying, then how would anyone who holds to a rapture position miss out on anything that someone who doesn't hold the position gets from the Lord? Are we now in a caste system religion like Hinduism?

    There is some very distinct positives to holding a rapture, especially a pre-trib rapture position. There is more motivation to evangelize the world before it is too late. To reach as many as possible so that they will not have to endure the calamity to come. It is also a motivation to keep oneself in union with the Messiah. If there is no pre-trib rapture, then why worry? Just wait till things come apart and then jump on the Christian bandwagon. Since there is no pre-trib removal of the righteous, might as well raise hell now and get in line later when one sees thing going crazy. If the rapture position is true, then what better motivation to cling to the faith for fear of not partaking in it?

    I know of Art Katz. I was familiar with some of his stuff back in the mid 80's. But those comments you attribute to him are purely opinion based on emotion and feeling. Nothing of substance. Opinion does not hold the status of doctrine. Art is not the Apostle Paul, who also is a Messianic Jew as were all the Apostles.

    It is true we should call on the name of the Lord. And I believe that many of the brothers and sisters being persecuted around the world are doing just that. And I pray for them daily, especially so the brothers and sisters in N. Korea. My heart has been burdened for them for quite a while. Is what they are going thru any better off than the great tribulation period?
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
  17. Willie T

    Willie T St. Petersburg Vineyard

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    No matter what type of cheese we insist the moon is made of..... the fact that there is no ball of cheese in the sky will not change.
     
  18. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Copperhead, I did read your OP; I disagree with it.
    Your disagreement with the scriptures I quoted, is merely your opinion.
    It is pure pedantics to differentiate between 'taken' and 'ascended'. They mean and are the same thing;
    the translation difference is meaningless.
    NOWHERE where 'harpazo' used does the scripture say that heaven is the destination.
    NO, I am not saying that!
    Your belief in the false rapture, does not negate your salvation. It just makes it more difficult for you, when what you expect does not happen.
    This is a shockingly bad and unchristian idea. I sure hope you don't seriously consider it.
    I know there is no 'escape to heaven', as so many like to think, but in no way do I slack off in my walk with the Lord and doing the work He has given me. In fact, I look forward with great anticipation to an amazing future, as described by the Bible prophets.

    That work is now, as I am 76 years young, mainly promoting the Prophetic Word on forums like this one. I make very little headway, as people on these forums already have decided what they want God to do for them.
    I point out what God actually will do and because it doesn't suit most here and the Church doesn't want to know, it is discouraging, but just like the ancient prophets, I must continue in my task.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
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  19. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    No more comment? I really hope that people reconsider their beliefs in the light of the truths of what God actually does plan for our future. We are plainly told that we Christians must endure until the end, that is: until Jesus Returns. Revelation 13:10, 14:12
    Note that I bolded the fact of 'harpazo' never having heaven as the destination. This is a prime example of the 'rapture to heaven' believers adding to scripture and their assumptions made to support that false teaching.
    This is another example of an assumption, stated as fact.
    We can easily show up your wrong ideas: in Matthew 27:52 it says those saints were seen in the city, nothing about going to heaven at all and as they are no longer around, the only logical and scripturally correct assumption, is that they died again, as the martyrs who will be brought back to life at Jesus' Return may do. Revelation 20:4-6
    ONLY at the Great White Throne Judgement will immortality be conferred; onto those whose names are found in the Book of Life.
     
  20. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    It was those darn mice that made it disappear - it was Swiss cheese :)
     
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