Another look at covenants.

[Cribstyl]

There are 'two' covenants 'as it is written' into the Law.

One covenant is and remains firmly against 'sons of the flesh.'

The other is for the 'son of faith and promise.'

Both of these Covenants exist in Gods Immutable Law.

Paul describes them quite nicely in Galatians 4, stating therein that the son of the flesh still persecutes the son of faith and promise. Paul goes on to describe that as an internal to external working of the produce of the lust of the flesh, even describing the 'works' of that lust where it becomes apparently viewed, externally viewed, and that we as believers are to avoid all such works.

Many believers think that the first Covenant has fallen or is currently passed away. That is not the case.

Galatians 4:
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

enjoy!

squint

Should we ignor that Paul comparing of the two covenants to illustrate that one of them will put you in bondage to the law?

Gal 4:21¶Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

From reading the rest of that chapter, it seem clear that;
The covenant from Sinai (THE LAW) is not the one God intends to be eternal.
The covenant from Jerusalem (THE PROMISE to Abe) came through freewoman Sarah and the promise produced Jesus through Isaac.

The summary is saying throw out the bondwoman. You're ignoring the fact The law does not coexist with the promise.

 

[squint]

Should we ignor that Paul comparing of the two covenants to illustrate that one of them will put you in bondage to the law?

Do you think the covenant against 'works of the flesh' went away? lol

Paul goes into quite a detailed list of things that are NOT to be drawn into. Why? Because believers 'can be' therein drawn. The persecution of 'lust' that assuredly abides in the flesh [read SIN] is factually still present in 'all' believers. Quite simple. Dodging the reality of that covenant doesn't make it go away.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

So, it is.

Gal 4:21¶Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

From reading the rest of that chapter, it seem clear that;
The covenant from Sinai (THE LAW) is not the one God intends to be eternal.

The LAW of Love and Mercy and Faith is also written into the Covenant and is for the sons of the Spirit. Do you want to deny that which we 'have' when we are in Christ too? lol. Sons of the flesh can not perform that aspect of the Covenant. Particularly when they don't understand it and land on 'denial' of Gods Own Words.

The persecution is personal, very real and exists regardless of fleeing the facts in denial.

enjoy!

squint

 

[listed]

Do you think the covenant against 'works of the flesh' went away? lol

Paul goes into quite a detailed list of things that are NOT to be drawn into. Why? Because believers 'can be' therein drawn. The persecution of 'lust' that assuredly abides in the flesh [read SIN] is factually still present in 'all' believers. Quite simple. Dodging the reality of that covenant doesn't make it go away.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

So, it is.



The LAW of Love and Mercy and Faith is also written into the Covenant and is for the sons of the Spirit. Do you want to deny that which we 'have' when we are in Christ too? lol. Sons of the flesh can not perform that aspect of the Covenant. Particularly when they don't understand it and land on 'denial' of Gods Own Words.

The persecution is personal, very real and exists regardless of fleeing the facts in denial.

enjoy!

squint

So are you saying we are subject to 2 conflicting covenants: one physical and one spiritual? Why The flesh has already received it unapealable sentence of death.

 

[squint]

So are you saying we are subject to 2 conflicting covenants:

In Galatians Paul lists 'works of the flesh' which we are 'all' to avoid. So yes, that aspect of the Covenant is 'fully' in force. When we place ourselves 'under Law' works of the flesh assuredly spring forth to 'prove' the existence of sin with us. But there is also the Law of The Spirit in the WRITTEN Law as well.

Galatians 5 shows the applicability to BOTH sides of the Law.

One side proves sin, and we are to 'die daily' to that fact because it is there to prove the continuing fact any time it's picked up for 'fleshly' performances. There are also Spiritual matters in that same covenant that 'the power of lust' can not do.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Yes, it remains 'against the LAW' to perform works of the flesh. Even the 'thought' of adultery for example is 'a sin of the flesh.' If believers think they 'dodge' the workings or operations of evil within them by 'dodging the Law' they are merely dodging the obvious.

Faith, Mercy and Love are also written into the Law, but are not 'against' the Law. The Law can 'not' be against those things as they are Spiritual matters. Neither will the 'letter' deploy them. They are 'Spiritual' deployments of Christ Himself Living in us.

one physical and one spiritual? Why The flesh has already received it unapealable sentence of death.

All of Gods Laws are identical. He is and remains against all EVIL in any believer and in behalf of good and that which is Spiritual.

We cannot deny we have the continuing potential to fall in this present life under the control of the power of evil we carry in the form of the 'tempter.' Paul's exact call was to open our eyes to this matter and to turn us from the power of Satan unto God.

That walk in Him with Him and against the other working is and remains personal and a daily matter.

s

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by squint Do you think the covenant against 'works of the flesh' went away? lol

So are you saying we are subject to 2 conflicting covenants: one physical and one spiritual? Why
The flesh has already received it unapealable sentence of death.

Those of the flesh go to the grave/hell, while those of the spirit go to heaven.
Jesus says so in this Covenantle parable of Luke 16

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Luke 16:22 And became yet to be dying the Poor-one, and him to be carried away by the messengers into the Bosom of Abraham.
And yet died also the Rich-one and was buried.
23 And in the hades lifting up his eyes, existing in torments, he is seeing Abraham from afar and Lazarus in the bosom of him.

 

[Cribstyl]

There are 'two' covenants 'as it is written' into the Law.

One covenant is and remains firmly against 'sons of the flesh.'

The other is for the 'son of faith and promise.'

Both of these Covenants exist in Gods Immutable Law.

Paul describes them quite nicely in Galatians 4, stating therein that the son of the flesh still persecutes the son of faith and promise. Paul goes on to describe that as an internal to external working of the produce of the lust of the flesh, even describing the 'works' of that lust where it becomes apparently viewed, externally viewed, and that we as believers are to avoid all such works.

Many believers think that the first Covenant has fallen or is currently passed away. That is not the case.

Galatians 4:
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

enjoy!

squint

That's false. In "the books of law", God made several covenants. The 2 being discussed in Galatians 4 are The Abrahmic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant.

Saying that 2covenants fits into " God's immutable the law" needs explanation. Since you've taken over the thread with your strong perspectives, how about making some sense about how the covenants are in the law and not vise-versa?

 

[tzadik]

We could make this elementary level reading and ask a simple question.
*In the Old Covenant God clearly stating that His Torah (LAW/ Instructions) are to be the 'rules' and guidelines for that particular agreement.

*In Jeremiah 31 again we see God clearly stating that His Torah (Law/Instructions) will be the rules and guidelines that will this time be written on the hearts.

What is the point of trying to prove that the Old Covenant has been deleted, if the New Covenant contains the same rules?
And if God has two sets of Torahs (I'd like to see Biblical evidence for this), what rules would there be in the "second set" (also would like Biblical evidence for this)?
Covenant 1, contains Torah. Obedience and Adherence to Torah is part of the regulations.
Covenant 2, contains Torah. (unless someone can Biblically prove that it's a different Torah) Written on the heart.

 

[Frogster]

We could make this elementary level reading and ask a simple question.
*In the Old Covenant God clearly stating that His Torah (LAW/ Instructions) are to be the 'rules' and guidelines for that particular agreement.

*In Jeremiah 31 again we see God clearly stating that His Torah (Law/Instructions) will be the rules and guidelines that will this time be written on the hearts.

What is the point of trying to prove that the Old Covenant has been deleted, if the New Covenant contains the same rules?
And if God has two sets of Torahs (I'd like to see Biblical evidence for this), what rules would there be in the "second set" (also would like Biblical evidence for this)?
Covenant 1, contains Torah. Obedience and Adherence to Torah is part of the regulations.
Covenant 2, contains Torah. (unless someone can Biblically prove that it's a different Torah) Written on the heart.

is God writing jewish food and festival laws NOW..NOW, on gentile hearts?

they were not living torah in Anticoh, the Jewish Christians.

the new cov is here, orrr taint...

 

[Frogster]

We could make this elementary level reading and ask a simple question.
*In the Old Covenant God clearly stating that His Torah (LAW/ Instructions) are to be the 'rules' and guidelines for that particular agreement.

*In Jeremiah 31 again we see God clearly stating that His Torah (Law/Instructions) will be the rules and guidelines that will this time be written on the hearts.

What is the point of trying to prove that the Old Covenant has been deleted, if the New Covenant contains the same rules?
And if God has two sets of Torahs (I'd like to see Biblical evidence for this), what rules would there be in the "second set" (also would like Biblical evidence for this)?
Covenant 1, contains Torah. Obedience and Adherence to Torah is part of the regulations.
Covenant 2, contains Torah. (unless someone can Biblically prove that it's a different Torah) Written on the heart.

abraham, whom paul sused to ward off law, had not torah. besides gal 3;17, and rom 5;13, do u see how he could not use abe, as he did, to ward off torah, if abe had torah?

1..1...1..

 

[tzadik]

is God writing jewish food and festival laws NOW..NOW, on gentile hearts?

they were not living torah in Anticoh, the Jewish Christians.

the new cov is here, orrr taint...

Do you believe the New Covenant is here?

 

[Frogster]

Do you believe the New Covenant is here?

most christians know from hebrews, and the fact that paul was a new cov minister 2 cor 3 believe it is, so since u hold an obscrue minority view, to the 12th power, the burden of proof is on you, to somehow show tainttt..

you try to bind moses, saying "laws written", all while u say the new cov is not for gentiles, or not here yet..


show time...

 

[tzadik]

most christians know from hebrews, and the fact that paul was a new cov minister 2 cor 3 believe it is, so since u hold an obscrue minority view, to the 12th power, the burden of proof is on you, to somehow show tainttt..

you try to bind moses, saying "laws written", all while u say the new cov is not for gentiles, or not here yet..


show time...

Lol. well unlike what you believe I am 100% certain that the New Covenant HAS STARTED.

Now my question to you is this.
Jeremiah 31:34 says this"
"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

Do you believe that the RED HIGHLIGHTED section of the New Covenant has already happened?

"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate."
Also part of the New Covenant passage. Has this already happened?

 

[squint]

That's false. In "the books of law", God made several covenants. The 2 being discussed in Galatians 4 are The Abrahmic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant.

Saying that 2covenants fits into " God's immutable the law" needs explanation. Since you've taken over the thread with your strong perspectives, how about making some sense about how the covenants are in the law and not vise-versa?

Gods Covenants have always been TWO fold.

One against sin in the flesh and the other for Spiritual fulfillment in the heart.

All covenant matters revolve around the simple principle that God is for and in behalf of good and against evil.

Pretty simple stuff.

Since we all carry both sides of the ledgers in these matters, the covenant against lawlessness in us remains against that working in us and the Covenant of Grace is for us. Both Covenants then fully apply, are accurate and Truthful.

We have no need to deny ANY Word of God being directed to each individual believer.

Hard place to find when Gods Word is chopped apart and denied, but as Jesus said, man will live by EVERY WORD OF GOD.

That's all there is to it.

squint

 

[Cribstyl]

Gods Covenants have always been TWO fold.

One against sin in the flesh and the other for Spiritual fulfillment in the heart.

All covenant matters revolve around the simple principle that God is for and in behalf of good and against evil.

Pretty simple stuff.

Since we all carry both sides of the ledgers in these matters, the covenant against lawlessness in us remains against that working in us and the Covenant of Grace is for us. Both Covenants then fully apply, are accurate and Truthful.

We have no need to deny ANY Word of God being directed to each individual believer.

Hard place to find when Gods Word is chopped apart and denied, but as Jesus said, man will live by EVERY WORD OF GOD.

That's all there is to it.

squint

Something is missing here Squint. And if you do post scriptures, will it agree with your "simple" explanation?
I dont recognize what you claim as the old or the new covenant. What's wrong with that picture???
I'm willing to bet against your unscriptual doctrines.

 

[Cribstyl]

When people understand the content of the covenant which was sealed with the blood of Jesus, they will know, exactly what God requires of this generation. You have to be brain dead to confuse "not according to the covenant made with the fathers comming out of Egypt. By getting under the exact same covenant made comming out of Egypt. Paul is talking about law being the old covenant when he says "we're not under the law.

get at me

 

[squint]

Something is missing here Squint. And if you do post scriptures, will it agree with your "simple" explanation?
I dont recognize what you claim as the old or the new covenant. What's wrong with that picture???
I'm willing to bet against your unscriptual doctrines.

No one can say they have 'no sin' and be 'in Truth.'

The Old Covenant brings the knowledge of this fact...that we 'all' have sin and have sinned. None escape this conclusion of the Old Covenant regardless of their claims of obedience or sinlessness.

The New Covenant is also contained in the Law and is fully revealed by God in Christ:

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

enjoy!

squint

 

[tzadik]

When people understand the content of the covenant which was sealed with the blood of Jesus, they will know, exactly what God requires of this generation. You have to be brain dead to confuse "not according to the covenant made with the fathers comming out of Egypt. By getting under the exact same covenant made comming out of Egypt. Paul is talking about law being the old covenant when he says "we're not under the law.

get at me

Do you believe a New Covenant can be made with you, if there was no Old Covenant made with you?

What do you think the "LAW" that will be written on the hearts represents---if it's not the same LAW of God?

 

[Cribstyl]

Do you believe a New Covenant can be made with you, if there was no Old Covenant made with you?

If your question is; "how are Gentiles under the New Covenant", you'd be a straight shooter.

I can show you some scriptures and the fulfillment.
God made a covenant with Abraham. That covenant is called "the promise". God promised that all the nations of the world would be blessed through Abraham's seed (Jesus). That explains God's plans regardless of what other covenant are made. (and God made quite a few).

John worte, God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him. shall not perish but have everlasting life.
That reveals that God had a plan to save the world after Adam sinned.

Saying that God did'nt make a covenant with Gentiles is a stunt argument to create an false equation.



Those who take the words of the bible as true, understand why and when God gave men His laws. If God gave His laws to Adam, why would He give them a second time to only the Children of Israel and not the whole world?

The bible tells us about how Joseph led his family to Egypt. God multiply blessed and mutiply the people. The new Pharoah Egypt was killing the babies because God was blessing the Children of Israel.

When God set the people free from Egypt, God commanded that they remember to keep Passover and circumcision. Sabbath was not on the radar as yet.

The fact some people want to ignor is; God gave the COI the Law as part of a covenant. God explained that sabbath was a sign between Himself and the Children of Israel, not the world.


Another major eye opener for SDA: Jesus explained Moses commanded you to circumcized a man on the 8th day even if it falls on Sabbath, because that commandment was passed down from the fathers (Abraham.)
This prove that Sabbath was not passed down with circumcision. If it did exist from creation Moses would not command or keep circumcision and break the Sabbath day.............Please read your bible.

What do you think the "LAW" that will be written on the hearts represents---if it's not the same LAW of God?

Heb 8 and 10 say "His laws" not "the law". God is a living God, He can speak to every heart differently. Why would God write "Honor you mother and father" if my parent are dead? Will my 4yrs old daughter kill? If I move to a deserted island my issues with the law is solved......(unless I lose track of Sabbath)

My final answer is : God is said His covenant would NOT be the law He gave at Sinai.

 

[tzadik]

Heb 8 and 10 say "His laws" not "the law".

If you look at your Bible, especially the Hebrew you'd see the word Torah. The same word always used to refer to God's Law/Instructions. In this case is not plural but singular. In fact you'd be pressed to show me where "The Law" is not included in "His Laws" --all of Torah is His. Whether it's "be fruitful and multiply" or "do not kill"

God is a living God, He can speak to every heart differently. Why would God write "Honor you mother and father" if my parent are dead? Will my 4yrs old daughter kill? If I move to a deserted island my issues with the law is solved......(unless I lose track of Sabbath)

Again- a wrong perception and understanding of the Law of God-brings up these human reasonings. God's Law is spiritual, it goes far beyond our finite understanding. Obviously if your parents are dead you can't directly honor them, but you can honor their name, their legacy and bring honor to them even in their death. Even if you don't agree with the above- it doesn't manner. One person's deceased parents doesn't make the 5th commandment nonapplicable for the world!
Your 4 year old daughter might not kill now. But perhaps you can teach her the deeper, inner instruction of not being angry with your siblings or friends without a cause and calling them "fool and stupid". His commandments aren't just a list of do's and don'ts. They go much deeper than that.

What do you think the "LAW" that will be written on the hearts represents---if it's not the same LAW of God?

My final answer is : God is said His covenant would NOT be the law He gave at Sinai.

I have no idea where you got that.
It doesn't say ANYTHING about the Law not being the same ANYwhere Jeremiah 31 or Hebrews 8. It only talks about "the covenants" not being the same-then he shows some of the differences. Nowhere does it talk about a differnt Law.
In fact if you read Ezekiel 36--another passage regarding the "NC" you would see even more clearly what Law the "NC" has. (verse 26-27)

 

[Cribstyl]

If you look at your Bible, especially the Hebrew you'd see the word Torah. The same word always used to refer to God's Law/Instructions. In this case is not plural but singular. In fact you'd be pressed to show me where "The Law" is not included in "His Laws" --all of Torah is His. Whether it's "be fruitful and multiply" or "do not kill"

Look again in Heb 8 and 10 about the New Covenant we are talking about....The NT is Greek..... so the word "Nomos" is our target.

I will put 1325 my 3450 laws3551into 1519 their 846 mind 1271, and 2532 write 1924 them 846 in 1909 their 846 hearts 2588:

The same word Paul used to say....we're not under the law.

Again- a wrong perception and understanding of the Law of God-brings up these human reasonings. God's Law is spiritual, it goes far beyond our finite understanding. Obviously if your parents are dead you can't directly honor them, but you can honor their name, their legacy and bring honor to them even in their death. Even if you don't agree with the above- it doesn't manner. One person's deceased parents doesn't make the 5th commandment nonapplicable for the world!
Your 4 year old daughter might not kill now. But perhaps you can teach her the deeper, inner instruction of not being angry with your siblings or friends without a cause and calling them "fool and stupid". His commandments aren't just a list of do's and don'ts. They go much deeper than that.

No further comments.

I have no idea where you got that.
It doesn't say ANYTHING about the Law not being the same ANYwhere Jeremiah 31 or Hebrews 8. It only talks about "the covenants" not being the same-then he shows some of the differences. Nowhere does it talk about a differnt Law.
In fact if you read Ezekiel 36--another passage regarding the "NC" you would see even more clearly what Law the "NC" has. (verse 26-27)

When you understand that ten.com placed in the ark of the covenant was actually the covenant, call me.
Exd(1)Deu(2)