Annihilationism

[StanJ]

If I am wrong, why aren't you proving I m wrong by pointing us to a post where I have been shown that parables stem from true events. Guess what? I can point to a post where, irony of ironies you, yes you posted a link that argues that parables need not be based on true events.

Because unlike you there are people on this thread who do not have a positional bias and accept the truth as it is presented. As I've stated in the past I don't really care what you do and don't believe I care more about the people who may swallow your fairy tales. How would you know where to point if you didn't know what had already been posted? Oh the tangled web we weave...

 

[StanJ]

I am sorry, I did not realize that you have the authority to redefine the concept of unquenchable. I defer to your well-earned authority on these matters.
After all, you have studied the Bible for 45 years.

Does proves you don't pay attention to what you read, all you look for are holes to exploit and ignore the truth.

 

[expos4ever]

The dissension is not caused by God or his word, it is caused by people who purport to know better than others about what the written word of God says, without having any actual corroboration within it.

Do you mean like people who say this?:

Paul is referring to the Judgment of Israel in Romans 2 not the judgement or punishment of individuals.

....when Paul is clear that the judgment / punishment befalls all human beings - Jew or Gentile:

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

 

[expos4ever]

Because unlike you there are people on this thread who do not have a positional bias and accept the truth as it is presented. As I've stated in the past I don't really care what you do and don't believe I care more about the people who may swallow your fairy tales. How would you know where to point if you didn't know what had already been posted? Oh the tangled web we weave...

Alright, if you insist on being shown to have contradicted yourself, I will do the honours:

You posted this on the matter of parables:

By definition, a parable is a true-to-life story used to illustrate or illuminate a truth.
https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/the-rich-man-and-lazarus-luke-1619-31/

Assuming that Jesus would use made up stories with no truth in them to illustrate a spiritual truth calls into question the very understanding of what truth is. Jesus never lied nor were his parables fictional or made up of lies.

More recently, you have stated:

And you seem to have no compunction whatsoever of accusing our Lord and savior of making up stories, despite the fact that you have been shown that Parables stem from true events.

But lo! Here is an extract from the very site you invoked to defend your position that parables "stem from true events":

By definition, a parable is a true-to-life story used to illustrate or illuminate a truth. This is true even if all of the details never occurred exactly as presented in the story. They are special stories that may, or may not, reflect historical events. Nevertheless, they must be true-to-life. By true-to-life we mean that a parable must be based on a real-life situation that the hearers are familiar with. In other words, the story itself has to be based on events that could have happened, whether they ever actually did or not.

 

[expos4ever]

Does proves you don't pay attention to what you read, all you look for are holes to exploit and ignore the truth.

Are you willing to stand by your claim that say a fire is "unquenchable" is to say that it does not consume its fuel.

If you are, I suspect you will take some "heat" from firemen who know full well that unquenchable fires - that is, fires that are incapable of being put out by dint of external agency - do indeed consume their fuel.

 

[expos4ever]

.I have explained my view of your one proof text several times. They may not require judgment immediately after death but they certainly can be interpreted that way

How can Romans 2 be interpreted in a manner that does not conflict with the notion that people get punished immediately after death:

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath {***is this not in the future}, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil

 

[expos4ever]

.The writer of Hebrews didn't say "by and by after this the judgment."

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: ​

After I finished college, I began to work.

Does that mean I started work the very next day after graduating? Of course not; the concept of "after" does not necessitate an "immediately after" interpretation.

 

[expos4ever]

No I do not think your post is a more convincing argument in defense of the view that Luke 16 is about the afterlife.

So you are sticking with your position that even though Jesus tells his listeners that the rich man is already in hell, He (Jesus) intends them to understand that he will only be in hell in a few thousand years. Isn't it you who posted:

.In the Lazarus/rich man story two of the persons are named Lazarus and a historical person Abraham. Since Jesus did not say this was a parable if Abraham was not in the place stated and did not say the words Jesus quoted, Jesus lied.

....and especially this:

So you see nothing wrong with Jesus making a patently false statement? Would Jesus use something fake, phony or false to teach truth to his disciples and others?

Can you explain how Jesus telling His listeners the rich man is already in hell when He knows that, from the perspective of His listeners, the rich man will not be in hell for thousands of years is not making a "false statement"? The point is that even if Jesus sees the "future" as contemporaneous with the present, He also knows that his listeners do not think that way.

 

[StanJ]

Alright, if you insist on being shown to have contradicted yourself, I will do the honours:

You posted this on the matter of parables:


More recently, you have stated:


But lo! Here is an extract from the very site you invoked to defend your position that parables "stem from true events":

By definition, a parable is a true-to-life story used to illustrate or illuminate a truth. This is true even if all of the details never occurred exactly as presented in the story. They are special stories that may, or may not, reflect historical events. Nevertheless, they must be true-to-life. By true-to-life we mean that a parable must be based on a real-life situation that the hearers are familiar with. In other words, the story itself has to be based on events that could have happened, whether they ever actually did or not.

Asked and answered. Use your very apparent skills to find the answer if your claim is true. Those who have already read it know better.

 

[StanJ]

Are you willing to stand by your claim that say a fire is "unquenchable" is to say that it does not consume its fuel.
If you are, I suspect you will take some "heat" from firemen who know full well that unquenchable fires - that is, fires that are incapable of being put out by dint of external agency - do indeed consume their fuel.

Where exactly did I make this claim?

 

[Colter]

There is either life or death, salvation or destruction. Hell, the lake of fire, the underworld etc. are all a product of human speculation and conjecture which are a part of many evolutionary religions.

People who fail to realize the transformative truth of the goodness of God have only threats of the theoretical judgment of God to use in their ministries arsenal.

It is the understanding of God that changes throughout the coarse of the development of religion. When we met the Son of God we had to let go of a lot of old ideas.

 

[expos4ever]

Where exactly did I make this claim?

Indeed, the mere fact that Christ utilized the rabbinic language connected with Gehenna, such as "unquenchable fire" and "never- dying worms," demonstrates beyond all doubt to any reasonable person that he deliberately used the word Gehenna to impress upon his hearers that eternal punishment awaits the wicked after the resurrection. No other conclusion is possible.

 

[Der Alte]

After I finished college, I began to work.
Does that mean I started work the very next day after graduating? Of course not; the concept of "after" does not necessitate an "immediately after" interpretation.

It could be understood that way, without clarification. However we are not talking about casual conversation in 2016 but scripture written ca. 70 AD to communicate the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth to new believers not vague generalities.

 

[hedrick]

So are you saying that Jesus wasn't aware of what he was saying? Jesus just put it up there without full knowledge of what most people of the day believed or thought?

Of course not. I'm saying that Jesus was teaching accountability for our actions, but did not intend to teach any specific scheme for how judgement would occur. Hence he used existing concepts. Why would he not specifically teach what the final judgement and hell are going to be? Again, I suspect that God's realm is sufficiently different from earth that it may not be possible to describe in detail to us.

 

[Der Alte]

So you are sticking with your position that even though Jesus tells his listeners that the rich man is already in hell, He (Jesus) intends them to understand that he will only be in hell in a few thousand years. Isn't it you who posted:
....and especially this:
Can you explain how Jesus telling His listeners the rich man is already in hell when He knows that, from the perspective of His listeners, the rich man will not be in hell for thousands of years is not making a "false statement"? The point is that even if Jesus sees the "future" as contemporaneous with the present, He also knows that his listeners do not think that way.

Are we talking about the same Jesus who told the Jews in the temple "Before Abraham I am?" Jesus did not say "I was," past tense but "I am," present tense. How do you know that Jesus' audience did not think that way? See first sentence.

 

[Der Alte]

How can Romans 2 be interpreted in a manner that does not conflict with the notion that people get punished immediately after death:
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath {***is this not in the future}, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil

Please click link to review my post #784
and my post #745

 

[Colter]

They reveal what they can in the ages they appear. Jesus stated the facts without elaborating:

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

 

[Jan001]

The concept of the annihilation of non-survivors is in the Bible. They die and never come back.

I don't see that in my Bible.

Jude 1:7
just as Sodom and Gomor′rah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. rsv

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, rsv

Matthew 25:46
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” rsv
​

Eternal punishment and eternal life last the same amount of time: forever.

​

 

[Jan001]

They reveal what they can in the ages they appear. Jesus stated the facts without elaborating:

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

"Liveth and believeth in me" means that a person follows/does what Jesus tells him to do until he dies. God will then give him an inheritance of eternal life with them. If a person follows/obeys Jesus until he dies, Jesus will lead him into eternal life. The person follows Jesus into eternal life. If he does not obey Jesus' commandments and he is unrepentant at the time of his physical death, he will then suffer eternal condemnation/torment in hell which is called the second death.

Matthew 7:20-25
Thus you will know them by their fruits. 21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ 24 “Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; 25 and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. rsv​

 

[Colter]

I don't see that in my Bible.

Jude 1:7
just as Sodom and Gomor′rah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. rsv

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, rsv

Matthew 25:46
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” rsv
​

Eternal punishment and eternal life last the same amount of time: forever.

​

Maybe you see what you want to see in the Bible based on what you desire to happen to others? Man tends to create God in his own narrow image. An Eternal deity that would punish his own finite child for an eternity is evil beyond description!

Love is not secondary to anything in the divine nature. Hell is a creation of man.