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Yes, I see it now. Still don't know who he is but apparently he's more well-known In England than he is in North America, but I've never heard of him.It's his blog. You can see that in the links near the top, though I agree it's not obvious.
I would consider those three to be Biblical scholars. They are all professors of NT studies. I've seen Mounce and Moo quoted in commentaries. I don't think I've ever seen a reference to Wallace.
It's his blog. You can see that in the links near the top, though I agree it's not obvious.
I would consider those three to be Biblical scholars. They are all professors of NT studies. I've seen Mounce and Moo quoted in commentaries. I don't think I've ever seen a reference to Wallace.
He also runs CSNTM.ORGDr. Daniel Wallace has taught graduate level Greek for more than 30 years at Dallas Theological Seminary has written, co-authored, edited, or contributed to more than two dozen books among which is his Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics.
He also runs CSNTM.ORG
I'm guessing now that the mods have intervened, we won't be getting much more traffic on this thread? I am surprised the vote was fairly evenly split although I guess it's not really surprising seeing as it was perpetuated by a conditionalist who apparently has a following here.I was not aware of that but I did know he heads Bible.org and is the chief editor of the NET.
Indeed and Amen.
So, how many do NOT believe in Him?
Or maybe they do, but don't repent.
The point in question here is OBVIOUSLY if it's eternal.
If it is eternal and conscious, there is no 2nd death, and no one will perish.
Maybe you can answer my question too.
right...
Well, i believe in a good, loving and just God.
No wonder people despise God and ignore the Word.
No person with a little love and kindness in their hearts can live with the traditional view, i tend to think only sociopaths can, to be honest...
Let's combine it with predestination, which is Biblical too.
Then God created many people just to burn in hell eternally.
And if you have a problem with that, if that prohibits you to acknowledge, let alone love God, you're gonna end up there too.
And if you somehow are still a Christian, you'll have to somehow justify that many of the people that you love (as the Law of Christ prescribes) will be tortured consciously eternally.
Even the fallen angels lost their eternity, and will die just like unsaved man.
When it's conscious torment, there is no death, for death is the end of consciousness.The second death is eternity in the lake of fire.
In the traditional view He actually has.God did not create many people just to burn in hell eternally.
That's not correct.
God can kill the soul too, that's why we should fear Him, not the devil, who can only kill the body.
Job 32:8 refers to inspiration of the Almighty.
When it's conscious torment, there is no death, for death is the end of consciousness.
When it is ECT there is no purpose to it, and the punishment (God's judgement) is never fulfilled or finished.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Most of you traditionalists have hardened hearts towards unbelievers, because you have to justify God torturing them with fire eternally for their blindness in their puny 80 years in the flesh.
And with your hardened hearts you will end up there yourselves.
Good luck.
In the traditional view He actually has.
Or would you imply He has no choice?
The problem with this argument is that it is circular, unless you have otherwise made the case that that the concept of "death" as used in the time and place this text was written included, by definition, the notion of condemnation in hell. That seems a priori very unlikely, but please point me to a post where this case has been made. Let me try to explain a little further: if someone asked a typical American in 2016 "What does 'death' mean?, the response would most assuredly be "death in the full permanent 'lights-out' sense" - there would nothing about hell at all. That is what death generally means in our culture. So, if the statement "the wages of sin is death" were written today in North America, it would be reasonable to take it as supporting annihilation. Does that mean the writer could not possibly have intended us to take in the "eternal torment" sense? No, but you would have to make a case for that unusual reading and, importantly, that case could not be circular - it could at no point sneak in an assumption that "death", as a concept, entails an assumption of continued conscious existence.Eternal life with God or death (condemnation) without Him. Without God there is no eternal life. The opposite of life is death which means condemnation to hell without hope of ever leaving there.
How do know this? You may have answered this is in the past - if you think you have an answer that is not circular (that does not assume the very thing you need to "prove" - that "destroy" means to "condemn to eternal fire"), please point us to such a post(s).Destroy does not mean annihilate. Destroy means to condemn the soul and body to the lake of fire. Destroy means condemnation to eternal hell fire.
An absolute deity who tortures a ignorant finite child of his own creation, a child fooled by a Satan creature who was allowed to mislead, that's not a just God at all! But no such deity exists except in the belief of one of the same finite minds.The second death is eternity in the lake of fire. No one is annihilated by the flames in the lake of fire. The rich man was not annihilated by the flame and neither will any other person be annihilated in the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:14The second death is simply the loss of eternal life with God. The second death is eternal torment and anguish and this is because God is not there in the lake of fire. Where God is, there is love. Where God is not, there is no love.
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; rsv
Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.” rsv
Please note that the unfaithful shall be in the lake of fire. It does not state that they shall be annihilated by the lake of fire. The rich man was suffering due to a flame in the lake of fire. He was not annihilated by the flame and neither will any other person be annihilated by the flames in hell. The rich man was residing in the lake of fire. He still is in the lake of fire and he always will be in this lake of fire.
The problem with this argument is that it is circular, unless you have otherwise made the case that that the concept of "death" as used in the time and place this text was written included, by definition, the notion of condemnation in hell. That seems a priori very unlikely, but please point me to a post where this case has been made. Let me try to explain a little further: if someone asked a typical American in 2016 "What does 'death' mean?, the response would most assuredly be "death in the full permanent 'lights-out' sense" - there would nothing about hell at all. That is what death generally means in our culture. So, if the statement "the wages of sin is death" were written today in North America, it would be reasonable to take it as supporting annihilation. Does that mean the writer could not possibly have intended us to take in the "eternal torment" sense? No, but you would have to make a case for that unusual reading and, importantly, that case could not be circular - it could at no point sneak in an assumption that "death", as a concept, entails an assumption of continued conscious existence.
Same thing with the notion of "perish"; if you are going to say that "perish" means to live on in a state of eternal torment, you need to make that case, not simply assume it.
Now, to be fair, it is within your rights to challenge me to make a case that the concept of "perish" (for example) as used in the world of first-century Palestine really did mean "lights out".
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