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Annihilationism

What is your view of the final state of the unrepentant.

  • Annihilationism (I believe the unrepentant will be destroyed)

    Votes: 26 46.4%
  • Traditionalism (I believe the unrepentant will suffer eternal conscious torment in hell)

    Votes: 27 48.2%
  • Universalism (I believe that everyone will eventually be saved)

    Votes: 3 5.4%

  • Total voters
    56
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hedrick

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It's his blog. You can see that in the links near the top, though I agree it's not obvious.

I would consider those three to be Biblical scholars. They are all professors of NT studies. I've seen Mounce and Moo quoted in commentaries. I don't think I've ever seen a reference to Wallace.
 
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StanJ

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It's his blog. You can see that in the links near the top, though I agree it's not obvious.

I would consider those three to be Biblical scholars. They are all professors of NT studies. I've seen Mounce and Moo quoted in commentaries. I don't think I've ever seen a reference to Wallace.
Yes, I see it now. Still don't know who he is but apparently he's more well-known In England than he is in North America, but I've never heard of him.
They are indeed all Greek Scholars and the Mounce's are father and son. All are pre-eminent Greek theologians and were instrumental in modern translations such as the NIV, NET and the MOUNCE reverse Interlinear Greek translation.
 
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Swan7

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MOD HAT ON

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This thread went through some thorough cleaning. It's disappointing to see members bickering and flaming back and forth - and for so long...

I think a few of us forgot the Statement of Purpose and of course CF Rules.

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Der Alte

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It's his blog. You can see that in the links near the top, though I agree it's not obvious.
I would consider those three to be Biblical scholars. They are all professors of NT studies. I've seen Mounce and Moo quoted in commentaries. I don't think I've ever seen a reference to Wallace.

Dr. Daniel Wallace has taught graduate level Greek for more than 30 years at Dallas Theological Seminary has written, co-authored, edited, or contributed to more than two dozen books among which is his Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics.
 
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StanJ

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Dr. Daniel Wallace has taught graduate level Greek for more than 30 years at Dallas Theological Seminary has written, co-authored, edited, or contributed to more than two dozen books among which is his Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics.
He also runs CSNTM.ORG
 
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StanJ

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I was not aware of that but I did know he heads Bible.org and is the chief editor of the NET.
I'm guessing now that the mods have intervened, we won't be getting much more traffic on this thread? I am surprised the vote was fairly evenly split although I guess it's not really surprising seeing as it was perpetuated by a conditionalist who apparently has a following here.
 
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Jan001

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Indeed and Amen.
So, how many do NOT believe in Him?
Or maybe they do, but don't repent.
The point in question here is OBVIOUSLY if it's eternal.
If it is eternal and conscious, there is no 2nd death, and no one will perish.

Maybe you can answer my question too.

The second death is eternity in the lake of fire. No one is annihilated by the flames in the lake of fire. The rich man was not annihilated by the flame and neither will any other person be annihilated in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; rsv

The second death is simply the loss of eternal life with God. The second death is eternal torment and anguish and this is because God is not there in the lake of fire. Where God is, there is love. Where God is not, there is no love.

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot
shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.” rsv

Please note that the unfaithful shall be in the lake of fire. It does not state that they shall be annihilated by the lake of fire. The rich man was suffering due to a flame in the lake of fire. He was not annihilated by the flame and neither will any other person be annihilated by the flames in hell. The rich man was residing in the lake of fire. He still is in the lake of fire and he always will be in this lake of fire.

 
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Jan001

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right...

Well, i believe in a good, loving and just God.

It seems to me that you believe in a good and loving God, but that you do not believe in a just God. ISTM that you do not believe God when He states that a person reaps what he sows.

Galatians 6:7-9
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart. rsv

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body. rsv


John 5:28-29
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. niv

James 1:19-22
Know this, my beloved brethren. Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger, 20 for the anger of man does not work the righteousness of God. 21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rank growth of wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

 
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Jan001

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No wonder people despise God and ignore the Word.
No person with a little love and kindness in their hearts can live with the traditional view, i tend to think only sociopaths can, to be honest...
Let's combine it with predestination, which is Biblical too.
Then God created many people just to burn in hell eternally.
And if you have a problem with that, if that prohibits you to acknowledge, let alone love God, you're gonna end up there too.
And if you somehow are still a Christian, you'll have to somehow justify that many of the people that you love (as the Law of Christ prescribes) will be tortured consciously eternally.

Even the fallen angels lost their eternity, and will die just like unsaved man.

God did not create many people just to burn in hell eternally. God wants all people to be saved.
 
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Hieronymus

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The second death is eternity in the lake of fire.
When it's conscious torment, there is no death, for death is the end of consciousness.
When it is ECT there is no purpose to it, and the punishment (God's judgement) is never fulfilled or finished.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
 
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Jan001

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That's not correct.
God can kill the soul too, that's why we should fear Him, not the devil, who can only kill the body.
Job 32:8 refers to inspiration of the Almighty.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. rsv
Destroy does not mean annihilate. Destroy means to condemn the soul and body to the lake of fire. Destroy means condemnation to eternal hell fire.

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.” rsv
 
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Jan001

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When it's conscious torment, there is no death, for death is the end of consciousness.
When it is ECT there is no purpose to it, and the punishment (God's judgement) is never fulfilled or finished.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


Eternal life with God or death (condemnation) without Him. Without God there is no eternal life. The opposite of life is death which means condemnation to hell without hope of ever leaving there.

Perish means to be condemned to the lake of fire.
 
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Jan001

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Most of you traditionalists have hardened hearts towards unbelievers, because you have to justify God torturing them with fire eternally for their blindness in their puny 80 years in the flesh.
And with your hardened hearts you will end up there yourselves.
Good luck.

Hey, we are the lucky ones. We have 80 years to repent and to choose to live like Christ until we die so that we can then be approved to live with God forever. The angels only got one chance to obey. That's it. One.
 
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Jan001

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In the traditional view He actually has.
Or would you imply He has no choice?

I've never believed that God made some people just so that He could condemn them. God gives each person free will to choose. Each person chooses to obey Him or else they choose to disobey Him. This includes Esau, Pharaoh, and Judas.

1 Timothy 2:3-7
This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. 7 For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. rsv

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. nkjv
 
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expos4ever

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Eternal life with God or death (condemnation) without Him. Without God there is no eternal life. The opposite of life is death which means condemnation to hell without hope of ever leaving there.
The problem with this argument is that it is circular, unless you have otherwise made the case that that the concept of "death" as used in the time and place this text was written included, by definition, the notion of condemnation in hell. That seems a priori very unlikely, but please point me to a post where this case has been made. Let me try to explain a little further: if someone asked a typical American in 2016 "What does 'death' mean?, the response would most assuredly be "death in the full permanent 'lights-out' sense" - there would nothing about hell at all. That is what death generally means in our culture. So, if the statement "the wages of sin is death" were written today in North America, it would be reasonable to take it as supporting annihilation. Does that mean the writer could not possibly have intended us to take in the "eternal torment" sense? No, but you would have to make a case for that unusual reading and, importantly, that case could not be circular - it could at no point sneak in an assumption that "death", as a concept, entails an assumption of continued conscious existence.

Same thing with the notion of "perish"; if you are going to say that "perish" means to live on in a state of eternal torment, you need to make that case, not simply assume it.

Now, to be fair, it is within your rights to challenge me to make a case that the concept of "perish" (for example) as used in the world of first-century Palestine really did mean "lights out".
 
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expos4ever

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Destroy does not mean annihilate. Destroy means to condemn the soul and body to the lake of fire. Destroy means condemnation to eternal hell fire.
How do know this? You may have answered this is in the past - if you think you have an answer that is not circular (that does not assume the very thing you need to "prove" - that "destroy" means to "condemn to eternal fire"), please point us to such a post(s).
 
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Colter

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The second death is eternity in the lake of fire. No one is annihilated by the flames in the lake of fire. The rich man was not annihilated by the flame and neither will any other person be annihilated in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; rsv

The second death is simply the loss of eternal life with God. The second death is eternal torment and anguish and this is because God is not there in the lake of fire. Where God is, there is love. Where God is not, there is no love.

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot
shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.” rsv

Please note that the unfaithful shall be in the lake of fire. It does not state that they shall be annihilated by the lake of fire. The rich man was suffering due to a flame in the lake of fire. He was not annihilated by the flame and neither will any other person be annihilated by the flames in hell. The rich man was residing in the lake of fire. He still is in the lake of fire and he always will be in this lake of fire.

An absolute deity who tortures a ignorant finite child of his own creation, a child fooled by a Satan creature who was allowed to mislead, that's not a just God at all! But no such deity exists except in the belief of one of the same finite minds.

Justice for those who completely reject life is to return to what they were before God gave life to them. Nothing, they will not exist, no records of them ever having existed.
 
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Der Alte

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The problem with this argument is that it is circular, unless you have otherwise made the case that that the concept of "death" as used in the time and place this text was written included, by definition, the notion of condemnation in hell. That seems a priori very unlikely, but please point me to a post where this case has been made. Let me try to explain a little further: if someone asked a typical American in 2016 "What does 'death' mean?, the response would most assuredly be "death in the full permanent 'lights-out' sense" - there would nothing about hell at all. That is what death generally means in our culture. So, if the statement "the wages of sin is death" were written today in North America, it would be reasonable to take it as supporting annihilation. Does that mean the writer could not possibly have intended us to take in the "eternal torment" sense? No, but you would have to make a case for that unusual reading and, importantly, that case could not be circular - it could at no point sneak in an assumption that "death", as a concept, entails an assumption of continued conscious existence.
Same thing with the notion of "perish"; if you are going to say that "perish" means to live on in a state of eternal torment, you need to make that case, not simply assume it.
Now, to be fair, it is within your rights to challenge me to make a case that the concept of "perish" (for example) as used in the world of first-century Palestine really did mean "lights out".

The problem with this argument is it relies on the English translation. The Greek word translated destroy/perish is ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi which occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 71 times, 83%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.
(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned]. Below is the complete definition of this word from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available.
.....Since the majority of the usages cannot be annihilation/destruction, that meaning must be forced onto the word.

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).
1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; [kill] the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28 ; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26, 3 ( cf. Sir 20:22 ).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ [die] of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. o[fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12
. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son [who has returned]Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.
BAG Greek Lexicon online
 
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