Annihilationism

[Jan001]

Salvation is by faith alone.
Notice that all are judged by works is true, but for those born of God, they are saved, their judgment is regarding rewards. The sheep vs goats, well all the saved people actually do good works since that is their new nature. Those works God had created for them to do beforehand siing we are His workmanship.

Notice v8, 9, 10 clearly teaches this.

Ephesians 2New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

No, salvation is not by faith alone. No, salvation is not by faith only.

James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. rsv
​

It is Jesus alone who saves us, but He judges us all by our works. He appoints to eternal life only the people who love/obey Him until their death.

The sheep are rewarded with eternal life because of their good works.
The goats are rewarded with condemnation because of their lack of good works.

The whole sheep/goat judgment is about works. Faith is not mentioned at all. We have no faith in Jesus if we do not do what He tells us to do. Jesus is not the Lord of people who do not obey Him. They may think He is their Lord and they may call Him, "Lord", but evildoers are not His sheep. They are not His sheep because they do not follow Him/imitate His lifestyle.

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?" rsv

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ rsv
​

Jesus is not the Lord of Christian evildoers.

 

[Jan001]

Perish means to die. To not have eternal life. The opposite of eternal life is not eternal condemnation. The opposite of eternal life is eternal death or a temporary life. So John 3:16 is saying exactly what I am saying.

All humans are created to be immortal so that they have the possibility to live with God forever.

Perish means to not be saved. Perish means that a person is not approved to inherit eternal life. Perish does mean to cease to exist. Perish does not mean to be annihilated.

Perish does mean to be condemned to suffer in the lake of fire/hell for all eternity with no opportunity to ever leave there and with no opportunity to ever have the sufferings lessened.

Two Choices:

Saved or lost.
Saved or destroyed.
Save or perish.
Salvation with God or condemnation without Him.

Condemnation to eternal hell fire is the reward for those who are unrepentant evildoers.

Eternal life with God is the reward for those who have overcome evil with good.

Luke 16:20-31
There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz′arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz′arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’” rsv​

Perish does not mean annihilation. Jesus showed us that even though the rich man was suffering/tormented by the flame in Hades he was not annihilated by it. Hell was a part of Hades (the abode of the dead) before Jesus' death and resurrection.

Why don't you believe what Jesus taught? The flames do not destroy. The flames torment. The flames cause anguish. The flames are not extinguished and neither is the rich man annihilated.

The Truth about the condemned:

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” rsv​

 

[DTate98]

Please post any Scripture passages that you think prove that Annihilationism is untrue in this thread.

Let's discuss them. I have only one other request, please be polite when you post here, I've had a lot of bad experiences with people who think that God plans to have the unrepentant tortured alive in hell.

What the heck, I think I'll add a poll.

Revelation 20:10 says that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be thrown into the Lake of Fire where they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever. Verse 15 says anyone whose name was not found in the Book of Life during the Great White Throne Judgment was also thrown into the lake of fire, which implies that all sinners who are unrepentant will also be tortured forever and ever. This is described as the second death. The wages of sin is death, yes, but death does not necessarily mean complete destruction. Before we were saved, we were spiritually dead, yet physically alive. The same goes for the second death. In the lake of fire, everyone will have spiritually died again, but will still be physically alive to experience suffering.

 

[sdowney717]

No, salvation is not by faith alone. No, salvation is not by faith only.

James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. rsv
​

It is Jesus alone who saves us, but He judges us all by our works. He appoints to eternal life only the people who love/obey Him until their death.

The sheep are rewarded with eternal life because of their good works.
The goats are rewarded with condemnation because of their lack of good works.

The whole sheep/goat judgment is about works. Faith is not mentioned at all. We have no faith in Jesus if we do not do what He tells us to do. Jesus is not the Lord of people who do not obey Him. They may think He is their Lord and they may call Him, "Lord", but evildoers are not His sheep. They are not His sheep because they do not follow Him/imitate His lifestyle.

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?" rsv

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ rsv
​

Jesus is not the Lord of Christian evildoers.

So then you do not believe in Christ.
You base your salvation on your own works.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Matthew 7 is stating that those who do the will of God get into heaven. The work of God is that you believe in Christ to be saved.
Those that did all those works, had no relationship with Christ as Christ says HE did not know them.

John 6:28
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Salvation is the work of God in your life, not the work of man lest anyone should boast.

 

[Jan001]

A simple question:
Since the gift of God is eternal life in Christ, how can it be possible that everyone receives this gift some in bliss and others in torment?

The gift of God (eternal life) is given only to the people who love/obey Him until they die.

 

[hedrick]

Revelation 20:10 says that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be thrown into the Lake of Fire where they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever. Verse 15 says anyone whose name was not found in the Book of Life during the Great White Throne Judgment was also thrown into the lake of fire, which implies that all sinners who are unrepentant will also be tortured forever and ever. This is described as the second death. The wages of sin is death, yes, but death does not necessarily mean complete destruction. Before we were saved, we were spiritually dead, yet physically alive. The same goes for the second death. In the lake of fire, everyone will have spiritually died again, but will still be physically alive to experience suffering.

Your argument doesn't actually show that the literal understanding for the second death is impossible. If you look at Rev 20, the devil, the beast and the false prophet are put into the lake of fire and tormented forever. (Incidentally, while aion can and often does mean just a long time, in this case the wording specifically means forever.) Those whose names aren't in the book of life go into the lake of fire, and for them it is said to be the second death. It is certainly possible that a lake that is designed to punish supernatural entities such as the devil might be fatal to normal people. The fact that the devil, etc are said to be tormented forever and people are said to suffer the second death could certainly indicate a difference. There is precedent in Jewish usage for the term second death to mean death of the soul. It's just that there's precedent for eternal torment as well.

Rev 14:10 is also ambiguous. It doesn't say that people are tormented forever, as it does in Rev 20 for the devil. It says that the smoke of their torment goes up forever. There is OT precedent in Is 66 for people to die but the fire in which they die to go on.

Which understanding you pick is going to depend upon your reading of passages in the Gospels and Paul, and whether you think it's possible for different authors to have different views on this subject. But in general I don't trust the judgements of posters here, because they show way too much confidence in their own viewpoints and far too little appreciation of how much the exegesis depends upon context.

 

[DTate98]

Your argument doesn't actually show that the literal understanding for the second death is impossible. If you look at Rev 20, the devil, the beast and the false prophet are put into the lake of fire and tormented forever. (Incidentally, while aion can and often does mean just a long time, in this case the wording specifically means forever.) Those whose names aren't in the book of life go into the lake of fire, and for them it is said to be the second death. It is certainly possible that a lake that is designed to punish supernatural entities such as the devil might be fatal to normal people. The fact that the devil, etc are said to be tormented forever and people are said to suffer the second death could certainly indicate a difference. There is precedent in Jewish usage for the term second death to mean death of the soul. It's just that there's precedent for eternal torment as well.

Rev 14:10 is also ambiguous. It doesn't say that people are tormented forever, as it does in Rev 20 for the devil. It says that the smoke of their torment goes up forever. There is OT precedent in Is 66 for people to die but the fire in which they die to go on.

Which understanding you pick is going to depend upon your reading of passages in the Gospels and Paul, and whether you think it's possible for different authors to have different views on this subject. But in general I don't trust the judgements of posters here, because they show way too much confidence in their own viewpoints and far too little appreciation of how much the exegesis depends upon context.

Matthew 25:46 says the unrighteous will suffer eternal punishment, while the righteous will be granted eternal life. In the context, Jesus is referring to those who did not help the poor and needy. If those people simply stood by and did nothing are to suffer eternal punishment, wouldn't it make sense that those who constantly broke God's law would suffer the same, if not greater, punishment? To completely destroy all sinners would be mercy. You can't suffer if you're dead, right? God intends to punish all who disobey him eternally, because that is the price of sin.

 

[Hieronymus]

How CAN someone even love his fellow human beings of which most do not believe, while justifying eternal conscious torment?
Think about it.
"For God loved the world so much" that He will torture most of them eternally...?
Is the 2nd death no death?

 

[DTate98]

How CAN someone even love his fellow human beings of which most do not believe, while justifying eternal conscious torment?
Think about it.
"For God loved the world so much" that He will torture most of them eternally...?
Is the 2nd death no death?

Thank you for making God look like the bad guy and taking John 3:16 out of context. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His one and only Son, so that whosever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." God loves His creation, so he made a way for salvation from the coming punishment. But if anyone refuses to accept the Son, they will be tormented in Hell. If you don't think Hell involves torment, refer to my last two posts.

 

[Hieronymus]

Thank you for making God look like the bad guy and taking John 3:16 out of context. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His one and only Son, so that whosever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

Indeed and Amen.
So, how many do NOT believe in Him?
Or maybe they do, but don't repent.

God loves His creation, so he made a way for salvation from the coming punishment. But if anyone refuses to accept the Son, they will be tormented in Hell. If you don't think Hell involves torment, refer to my last two posts.

The point in question here is OBVIOUSLY if it's eternal.
If it is eternal and conscious, there is no 2nd death, and no one will perish.

Maybe you can answer my question too.

 

[hedrick]

Matthew 25:46 says the unrighteous will suffer eternal punishment, while the righteous will be granted eternal life. In the context, Jesus is referring to those who did not help the poor and needy. If those people simply stood by and did nothing are to suffer eternal punishment, wouldn't it make sense that those who constantly broke God's law would suffer the same, if not greater, punishment? To completely destroy all sinners would be mercy. You can't suffer if you're dead, right? God intends to punish all who disobey him eternally, because that is the price of sin.

Mat 25:41 identifies that eternal punishment as fire. But in many passage we see that this fire burns things up; Jesus never shows fire as tormenting things eternally. See Mat 3:10, 3:11, 13:40, and less explicitly but still in Mat 7:19, 13:42 and 50 (because it’s probably an allusion to Daniel’s fiery furnace, which would have consumed him had God not preserved him miraculously), Mark 9:43 (which alludes to Is 66, where the fire is eternal but it’s burning up dead bodies, so the people aren’t being burned eternally), and parallels in Luke.

 

[Hieronymus]

If it is eternal life in torment for the un-saved, God will keep that situation even in the New Creation.

 

[hedrick]

If it is eternal life in torment for the un-saved, God will keep that situation even in the New Creation.

The best comment on that scenario is Ursula LeGuin's story "The Ones who Walk Away from Omelas." (It's easily available on the Internet.) But that's not the situation envisioned by Paul in 1 Cor 15. It's less clear about the Revelation. But my reading of Rev 21 is that

mourning and crying and pain will be no more,
for the first things have passed away.

implies that the lake of fire is no longer there. That's part of the old world. Yes, I know the text says it's eternal. But there is precedent in the prophets for things happening forever and ever that aren't literally endless.

 

[DTate98]

Indeed and Amen.
So, how many do NOT believe in Him?
Or maybe they do, but don't repent.
The point in question here is OBVIOUSLY if it's eternal.
If it is eternal and conscious, there is no 2nd death, and no one will perish.

Maybe you can answer my question too.

The second death does not necessarily mean actual death. It means there will be torment so horrible, it will be as feared as death. Either that, or it means spiritual death. All who enter the lake of fire are spiritually dead, but are physically alive. All of the unrepentant will be given bodies so that they will not die from the fire, but will eternally suffer. I hope this clears things up for you.

 

[Hieronymus]

The second death does not necessarily mean actual death.

right...

Well, i believe in a good, loving and just God.

 

[DTate98]

Indeed and Amen.
So, how many do NOT believe in Him?
Or maybe they do, but don't repent.
The point in question here is OBVIOUSLY if it's eternal.
If it is eternal and conscious, there is no 2nd death, and no one will perish.

Maybe you can answer my question too.

Although I cannot say the exact number of sinners who will go to Hell, here is what the bible says in Matthew 7: "13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

 

[Hieronymus]

Although I cannot say the exact number of sinners who will go to Hell, here is what the bible says in Matthew 7: "13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

But you don't believe in destruction.

14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

So it is.
Now how about God blinding his creatures?
According to you He created them to live in the flesh in sin in a fallen world for about 80 years, and then because they didn't hear, they deserve eternal conscious torment.
The dead are not conscious, they're dead.
So there is no 2nd death and no destruction nor do they perish.
And when He creates everything new, He keeps them alive anyway, for no purpose.
The chaff doesn't burn up, it just experiences agony eternally.

 

[DTate98]

right...

Well, i believe in a good, loving and just God.

Correct. God is loving and wants all to be with Him, however He cannot stand sin. In fact, He has stated Himself that He hates sin. Therefore He can not allow sinners into His kingdom. But he loves his creation, and does not wish it to perish, so he made a way to salvation through His son, Jesus Christ. So that by his sacrifice, we may be made righteous through Him. But while God is loving, He is also just. He will punish every sinner who is unrepentant. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life.

 

[Hieronymus]

No wonder people despise God and ignore the Word.
No person with a little love and kindness in their hearts can live with the traditional view, i tend to think only sociopaths can, to be honest...
Let's combine it with predestination, which is Biblical too.
Then God created many people just to burn in hell eternally.
And if you have a problem with that, if that prohibits you to acknowledge, let alone love God, you're gonna end up there too.
And if you somehow are still a Christian, you'll have to somehow justify that many of the people that you love (as the Law of Christ prescribes) will be tortured consciously eternally.

Even the fallen angels lost their eternity, and will die just like unsaved man.

 

[Hieronymus]

Correct. God is loving and wants all to be with Him, however He cannot stand sin.

So that's why He keeps unrepentant sinners alive forever?