Annihilationism?

[Pneuma3]

The law is a twofold work the bringing of judgment and of grace.


We read is 2 Corinthians that the ministration of death is to be done away with.
What! How can that which leads to Christ be done away with?
Read on.


2 Corinthians 3:6-14
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.



Luke 10:25-27
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mark 12:28-31
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

These commandment were known and read.

So then why does it say in another place it’s a new commandment?

Answer to this question is further down in the post.

John 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

1 John 2:7-8
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

2 John 5-6
5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Answer: Because the natural man ( old man ) does not understand spiritual things.

When the Spirit of God reveals the true meaning of the law to us , it becomes new to our understanding, but the truth was always held in the law, for the law is spiritual.

John explains this when he wrote “Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.”

Then he explains why the old commandment becomes new “because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.”

The commandments then have been written in our hearts.



It’s the same law, its just how we apprehend the law, for the old man it’s death, for the new man it’s the law of the Spirit of life in Christ.

When we are in Christ all things become new.

A new heaven and earth.

 

[Pneuma3]

Romans 8:1-4

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death.

I am in full agreement with this statement.

So then how does the law of the Spirit of life frees us from the law of sin and death?

We have to die to self before we are free from the law of sin and death.
Now we cannot die to self because we are weak though the flesh, or said another way, our fleshly natural life cannot die to itself.
Thus God sending His son in the likeness of sinful flesh ,and for sin ,condemned sin in the flesh.
For what purpose?
That the righteousness of the law might be FULFILLED in us.

This is done not of works but by faith in Jesus Christ.
We of our own selves cannot keep Gods laws, but Though faith in Christ we are able to fulfill Gods law.

Jesus Christ is our example 1Pe.2:21

Matthew 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Now as Jesus is our example and He fulfilled the law ,we must also fulfill the law or we do not live after our example.

Now let me make this as plain as I can so no one accuses me of trying to bring us again into bondage of the law.

It is though faith in Jesus Christ that the law can only be fulfilled, not by any works of the law we try to do. The fulfilling of Gods law is all done though faith.

The above scripture say Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Until the law though Christ is fulfilled in us by faith one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law.

Galatians 2:15-21
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

This passage of scripture is speaking of trying to be justified by the works of the law, this we cannot do. Our justification come only though faith in Jesus Christ. For if righteousness cometh by the works ( for it is works of the law these scriptures are speaking of) of the law then Christ is dead in vain. Paul explains how it is though life in Christ that he liveth. Therefore it is Christ that liveth in us and not of ourselves that Gods law is fulfilled. For Jesus Christ fulfilled Gods law in His person and He will fulfill it in ours also.

This is explained further in

Romans 10:1-4
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The end of the law is the fulfillment of it for Jesus did not come to destroy the law but to fulfil it.

When the law is fulfilled in us though Jesus Christ the law has no more hold on us for we have become dead to it but alive onto Christ.

This is worth repeating here:

And it is by fulfilling the law that the law no longer has any power over us.



Romans 13:8-10
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

We can see here that love is the fulfilling the law.

Matthew 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

All Gods law hang on two principles: to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul and mind and to love our neighbour as ourselves.

If God law is done away with then so is the commandment to love the Lord with all our hearts and our neighbour as ourselves for on these two commandments HANG all the law and the prophets.

Brother/sister if you can except it the commandments “thou shalt not” are not just commandments per say but they are also a commandment with the promise to us “ thou shalt not”.
Example: “thou shalt not” covet is a commandment telling us not to covet.
Now if we look at the promise side of it we see
“Thou shalt not” covet, meaning when we are in Christ we “will not covet.”

1 John 3:20-24
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater
than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that KEEPETH his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

If we are not keeping His commandments we are not dwelling in Him, but have again come under the law.
It is the fulfilling of the law that loosens us from the bondage of the letter of the law.

This is only done by faith in Jesus Christ who fulfills Gods law in us
.
If we are alive in Him how can we not but fulfill Gods law.

 

[Harlin]

Redefining the word work does not do much for your case here. I think perhaps you do not understand what is meant by "the letter of the law" letter of the law is a very strict literal interpretation. All labor is literally work who benifits is beside the point entirely.

Hello,

It was Christ who "redefined" it not me, Jesus said that it was good to "do good on the Sabbath", He had "worked" according to the Jews, who added to the law, they didn't understand the difference between working for their wages or self benefit, and doing good. Instead, they added so many regulations to Sabbath keeping that they would rather have seen someone suffer and even die, than help them for fear of working.

Jesus was showing them the true essence of the law, which they had WRONG, not right, just because they interpreted it that way does not mean they had it correct. Saying that all labour is wrong, does not go along with the God given example of the Manna collecting.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[Harlin]

Romans 8:1-4

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death.

I am in full agreement with this statement.

So then how does the law of the Spirit of life frees us from the law of sin and death?

We have to die to self before we are free from the law of sin and death.
Now we cannot die to self because we are weak though the flesh, or said another way, our fleshly natural life cannot die to itself.
Thus God sending His son in the likeness of sinful flesh ,and for sin ,condemned sin in the flesh.
For what purpose?
That the righteousness of the law might be FULFILLED in us.

This is done not of works but by faith in Jesus Christ.
We of our own selves cannot keep Gods laws, but Though faith in Christ we are able to fulfill Gods law.

Jesus Christ is our example 1Pe.2:21

Matthew 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Now as Jesus is our example and He fulfilled the law ,we must also fulfill the law or we do not live after our example.

Now let me make this as plain as I can so no one accuses me of trying to bring us again into bondage of the law.

It is though faith in Jesus Christ that the law can only be fulfilled, not by any works of the law we try to do. The fulfilling of Gods law is all done though faith.

The above scripture say Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Until the law though Christ is fulfilled in us by faith one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law.

Galatians 2:15-21
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

This passage of scripture is speaking of trying to be justified by the works of the law, this we cannot do. Our justification come only though faith in Jesus Christ. For if righteousness cometh by the works ( for it is works of the law these scriptures are speaking of) of the law then Christ is dead in vain. Paul explains how it is though life in Christ that he liveth. Therefore it is Christ that liveth in us and not of ourselves that Gods law is fulfilled. For Jesus Christ fulfilled Gods law in His person and He will fulfill it in ours also.

This is explained further in

Romans 10:1-4
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The end of the law is the fulfillment of it for Jesus did not come to destroy the law but to fulfil it.

When the law is fulfilled in us though Jesus Christ the law has no more hold on us for we have become dead to it but alive onto Christ.

This is worth repeating here:

And it is by fulfilling the law that the law no longer has any power over us.



Romans 13:8-10
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

We can see here that love is the fulfilling the law.

Matthew 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

All Gods law hang on two principles: to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul and mind and to love our neighbour as ourselves.

If God law is done away with then so is the commandment to love the Lord with all our hearts and our neighbour as ourselves for on these two commandments HANG all the law and the prophets.

Brother/sister if you can except it the commandments “thou shalt not” are not just commandments per say but they are also a commandment with the promise to us “ thou shalt not”.
Example: “thou shalt not” covet is a commandment telling us not to covet.
Now if we look at the promise side of it we see
“Thou shalt not” covet, meaning when we are in Christ we “will not covet.”

1 John 3:20-24
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater
than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that KEEPETH his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

If we are not keeping His commandments we are not dwelling in Him, but have again come under the law.
It is the fulfilling of the law that loosens us from the bondage of the letter of the law.

This is only done by faith in Jesus Christ who fulfills Gods law in us
.
If we are alive in Him how can we not but fulfill Gods law.

Amen Pnema3, good post.

 

[Harlin]

Concerning the Seventh day (the Sabbath made for man) not man for the Sabbath right?

Heb 4:2-3 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. We which do believe do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the Seventh day (( on this wise ))) And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore (((it remaineth))) that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in ((because of unbelief))

Heb 4:7-8 Again, he limiteth a cetain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Heb 4:9 There ((( remaineth therefore ))) a rest ((to)) the people of God.

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

In regarding Sabbath days by which men might judge another we should not.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect to any holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Roms 14:15-16 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth everyday alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. ((He that regardeth the day)) regardeth it unto the Lord; and ((he that regardeth not the day)) to the Lord he doth not regard it

How would these come into play regarding the conversation of Sabbaths either way? Curious, I am following this conversation aright?

Peace

Fireinfolding

Hello,

I don't believe this is talking of the Sabbath Day, there were many "sabbath days" back then, and I believe Paul is saying to not allow anyone to judge you regarding these, but to be convinced in your own mind about them.

The Sabbath Day is no more in question, as any of the other commandments.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[Harlin]

It is fairly easy to understand that the 10 commandments were just a shadow of the true law if you bear in mind this spiritual principal as put forth by Paul when talked about the resurrection.first the physical the the spiritual!Why would anyone in their right mind try to keep the letter?The letter is just the knowledge of good and evil, and that doesn't get you anywhere but dead!I could post all sorts of scriptures here, but I really can't be bothered right now, someone?

Nowhere in scripture does it ever say that "the 10 commandments were just a shadow of the true law", I believe that is your interpretation Marty.

The women who embalmed Christ kept the Sabbath that very same night that He died, it could not have possibly been nailed to the cross, nor a shadow of the true law. God never changes, His Sabbath was instituted in Eden, for He rested on the Seventh Day and made it holy, and will remain the same forever, for the law is immutable.

Thats right, the letter gets you nowhere but dead, there was no provision for sin within it's precepts, there was only condemnation, however, Christ came that He might fulfill the law and bring us life, through His righteousness, not our own, and if we are in Him, and His Spirit is leading us, then we will be keeping the law, for His Spirit does not sin, nor lead us to.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[Soul Searcher]

Hello,

It was Christ who "redefined" it not me, Jesus said that it was good to "do good on the Sabbath", He had "worked" according to the Jews, who added to the law, they didn't understand the difference between working for their wages or self benefit, and doing good. Instead, they added so many regulations to Sabbath keeping that they would rather have seen someone suffer and even die, than help them for fear of working.

Jesus was showing them the true essence of the law, which they had WRONG, not right, just because they interpreted it that way does not mean they had it correct. Saying that all labour is wrong, does not go along with the God given example of the Manna collecting.

God Bless,

Harlin

You seem to be missing something in my messages. I never said they had it right. I never said that Jesus was wrong. What I said was that by "the letter" of the law all work is a violation. letter meaning a strict literal interpretation which is exactly what they were doing.

You said Jesus showed them the true essence of the law.. which means he showed the the law in the spirit in which it was intended, not in the letter.

The difference is.. a law is created for the common good and was never meant to be a hardship but to help everyone. Then someone comes along and strictly enforces the law by the letter and people become enslaved by the letter of law which is what the pharasies had done/were doing. No matter what laws we may have/make there is always potential problems in enforcing them to the letter, there would need to be literally millions of special exceptions for the laws to be just in such cases when the intent of the law is to protect and serve. We have this very same problem today in our legal system judges and lawyers reading the letter of the law and allowing criminals to go free and imprisoning the innocent. Back in those days it was even worse as many crimes carried a death sentence.


On a final note.. when any law is interpreted in such a way that the meanings of the words are different than what is written or the intention of the law is considered then it is no longer the letter of the law. When one gets down to what the law really means and what its true intention/essence is then that is the spirit of the law not the letter.

 

[Harlin]

You seem to be missing something in my messages. I never said they had it right. I never said that Jesus was wrong. What I said was that by "the letter" of the law all work is a violation. letter meaning a strict literal interpretation which is exactly what they were doing.

You said Jesus showed them the true essence of the law.. which means he showed the the law in the spirit in which it was intended, not in the letter.

The difference is.. a law is created for the common good and was never meant to be a hardship but to help everyone. Then someone comes along and strictly enforces the law by the letter and people become enslaved by the letter of law which is what the pharasies had done/were doing. No matter what laws we may have/make there is always potential problems in enforcing them to the letter, there would need to be literally millions of special exceptions for the laws to be just in such cases when the intent of the law is to protect and serve. We have this very same problem today in our legal system judges and lawyers reading the letter of the law and allowing criminals to go free and imprisoning the innocent. Back in those days it was even worse as many crimes carried a death sentence.


On a final note.. when any law is interpreted in such a way that the meanings of the words are different than what is written or the intention of the law is considered then it is no longer the letter of the law. When one gets down to what the law really means and what its true intention/essence is then that is the spirit of the law not the letter.

Hello,

I agree, I see it that if the Jews (and us today) follow the law according to how God has deemed fit, then there would be no confusion on the matter. Jesus would not have had to come and correct their erroneous view and "work" would have been exactly that "work" or "labour", helping others and doing good would not even be considered "work" or "labour" but simply loving thy neighbour. It is really very simple.

God Bless,

Harlin