Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

[DavidPT]

But the soul is enternal. Destroy can mean being tortured for ever because in other bible verses it says that wicked people will be tormented for ever, how can someone who is destroyed be tormented for ever

Where in the Bible are you coming up with idea that souls are eternal? Until I read it for myself, it sounds like you are making claims without backing them up with Scripture. And that's part of your problem here, thus why you are asking----how can someone who is destroyed be tormented for ever? The reason you are asking that is because you are assuming all souls are eternal.

When it comes to something involving eternity, only one of the following two options can fit with something that exists forever.

A---shall never be destroyed
B---to destroy


Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed : and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


It's as simple as this, with eternity in mind. Only 'never can be destroyed' can mean to exist forever. To destroy can never mean to exist forever. But if I am wrong then prove it with Daniel 2:44 by showing how both A and B above can mean to exist forever in that verse. And if you manage to do that, I will change my position just like that, thus agree with the position of ECT instead.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

But the soul is enternal.

Huh? No??? Who ever said the soul is eternal? This so blatantly contradicts scripture that I am actually quite sorry for you for believing it. Look at the first post on this thread for all the verses that talk about immortality, eternal life, the longevity of the soul etc... They literally ALL are VERY clear that the soul is NOT immortal. There are ZERO verses in the bible that say the soul exists forever, and there are DOZENS of verses that say that life/consciousness/soul can and will be destroyed (the souls of the wicked).

For example, does Romans 6:23 say that the wages of sin is eternal life in torment, and that the gift of God is eternal life with God, or does it say that the wages of sin is DEATH, and that the gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE?

Destroy can mean being tortured for ever because in other bible verses it says that wicked people will be tormented for ever,

Show me that verse.

how can someone who is destroyed be tormented for ever

They can't be. Duh. If the punishment for sin is eternal destruction, how are you going to be able to be tormented forever? You have been destroyed forever. You are gone forever. You are dead forever.

You can't be forever in the process of being destroyed. You just can't. That doesn't make any sense. Think about it. You're either destroyed and are dead, or you are alive and not destroyed. I can't be eternally in the process of dying. Because then I would be immortal; the process of death would never be able to come to completion because the process would take an infinite amount of time to complete.

If I were to cast an insect into a furnace and was able to miraculously keep it alive for eternity while being constantly burned for all eternity, that is NOT eternal destruction. Eternal destruction is what happens when the insect is reduced to ashes and ceases to exist as an insect for the rest of eternity. That is eternal destruction. The ant has been destroyed. Destruction. If the ant was suspended in a state of torment for all eternity, it will never be destroyed. This is just common sense.

Think about what you are saying.

 

[Oseas]

[QUOTE Der Alter, post #431]
Exodus 3:2-3
(2) And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
(3) And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

1st point
Who was this angel that said to Moses: I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.(By the way, he is the same angel of Apocalypse, which the Lord JESUS had sent to John in the isle of Patmos).

2nd point
How could the angel of the Lord say: "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"? (In truth he is more than an angel, he is an Archangel.)

3rd point
"a flame fire which burns the material, but does not consum it".
Phisycaly it is impossible to explain because this flame fire is the own Most High God and Almighty, and He is Spirit. We can see His visible manifestation in flame fire, around Him you see that the space tremble, there is a moviment of the air around Him, the air floats with the heat present in the event as it trembles and rises to a certain height, in human language, would say it seems as the effect of high heat on the road asphalt on very hot day .

4th point
The material burns and is not consumed. The true believers will live within this fire in the Kingdom of God and will not be consumed, like the bush.

In the other hand, this will happen also with the bodies of the men which will perish in the hell's fire, in eternal perdition. But if God wants to consume the material, He does this, because He is a consuming or devouring fire. JESUS warned: fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him (God) which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven

Who wants to believe, believe it. The whole Earth will be envolved within the flame fire as was described above. The question is: Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

The prophecy of Isaiah will fulfil LITERALLY in this time of Apocalyse. Isaiah 33:10to19: Who has ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches.
10 Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.
18 Thine heart shall meditate terror. Where is the scribe? where is the receiver? where is he that counted the towers?
19 Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.

Daniel 3:23
(23) And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Daniel 3:25-27
(25) He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
(26) Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.
(27) And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.[/QUOTE]

 

[jovanovic]

Where in the Bible are you coming up with idea that souls are eternal? Until I read it for myself, it sounds like you are making claims without backing them up with Scripture. And that's part of your problem here, thus why you are asking----how can someone who is destroyed be tormented for ever? The reason you are asking that is because you are assuming all souls are eternal.

When it comes to something involving eternity, only one of the following two options can fit with something that exists forever.

A---shall never be destroyed
B---to destroy


Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed : and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


It's as simple as this, with eternity in mind. Only 'never can be destroyed' can mean to exist forever. To destroy can never mean to exist forever. But if I am wrong then prove it with Daniel 2:44 by showing how both A and B above can mean to exist forever in that verse. And if you manage to do that, I will change my position just like that, thus agree with the position of ECT instead.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

But the bible say that people will be tortured in hell forever, how can someome who is dead be tortured for ever?

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

But the bible say that people will be tortured in hell forever, how can someome who is dead be tortured for ever?

The bible does NOT say humans will be tortured in hell forever.

Someone who is dead cannot be tortured forever. You're right.

 

[jovanovic]

Huh? No??? Who ever said the soul is eternal? This so blatantly contradicts scripture that I am actually quite sorry for you for believing it. Look at the first post on this thread for all the verses that talk about immortality, eternal life, the longevity of the soul etc... They literally ALL are VERY clear that the soul is NOT immortal. There are ZERO verses in the bible that say the soul exists forever, and there are DOZENS of verses that say that life/consciousness/soul can and will be destroyed (the souls of the wicked).

For example, does Romans 6:23 say that the wages of sin is eternal life in torment, and that the gift of God is eternal life with God, or does it say that the wages of sin is DEATH, and that the gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE?


Show me that verse.


They can't be. Duh. If the punishment for sin is eternal destruction, how are you going to be able to be tormented forever? You have been destroyed forever. You are gone forever. You are dead forever.

You can't be forever in the process of being destroyed. You just can't. That doesn't make any sense. Think about it. You're either destroyed and are dead, or you are alive and not destroyed. I can't be eternally in the process of dying. Because then I would be immortal; the process of death would never be able to come to completion because the process would take an infinite amount of time to complete.

If I were to cast an insect into a furnace and was able to miraculously keep it alive for eternity while being constantly burned for all eternity, that is NOT eternal destruction. Eternal destruction is what happens when the insect is reduced to ashes and ceases to exist as an insect for the rest of eternity. That is eternal destruction. The ant has been destroyed. Destruction. If the ant was suspended in a state of torment for all eternity, it will never be destroyed. This is just common sense.

Think about what you are saying.

Lets see what the bible says.

Revelation 20:10
The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Isaiah 33:14
Sinners in Zion are terrified;
Trembling has seized the godless.
“Who among us can live with the consuming fire?
Who among us can live with continual burning?”

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Matthew 13:50
and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

 

[Der Alte]

1st point
Who was this angel that said to Moses: I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.(By the way, he is the same angel of Apocalypse, which the Lord JESUS had sent to John in the isle of Patmos).
2nd point
How could the angel of the Lord say: "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"? (In truth he is more than an angel, he is an Archangel.)

Exodus 3:2-6
(2) And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
(3) And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
(4) And when the LORD [YHWH] saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
(5) And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
(6) Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.​

The angel is in a flame outside the bush, vs. 2, the voice of God comes from inside the bush, vs. 4.

3rd point
"a flame fire which burns the material, but does not consume it".
Phisycaly it is impossible to explain because this flame fire is the own Most High God and Almighty, and He is Spirit. We can see His visible manifestation in flame fire, around Him you see that the space tremble, there is a moviment of the air around Him, the air floats with the heat present in the event as it trembles and rises to a certain height, in human language, would say it seems as the effect of high heat on the road asphalt on very hot day

Nothing in scripture says any of this..

 

[Oseas]

[QUOTE Butch5, post #435]You just won't answer the question forthrightly. I guess I'll have to tell you. When a person dies they decay and they return to the dust as the Scriptures say. The person ceases to exist. They are no more.[/QUOTE]

What says the Word of God ?
1 Peter 3:v.18to22
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Daniel 12:1to3
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth (their bodies) shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Isdaiah 26:19-21 & 25:v.7to9
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

25:7to9
7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.

9 And it shall be said in that Day (this Day just arrived), Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

This is not talking about humans.

“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

I wonder what eternal fire is. Is it fire that literally burns forever, or is it fire whose effects are eternal?

Who among us can live with continual burning?”

No one can. Duh.

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Yes. Eternal punishment. Not eternal punishing. (Der Alter, yes I know the Greek, we have already debated the Greek - there's nothing solid on either side.)

and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

OK? So people about to be cast into a lake of fire are going to be very upset and angry.

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

OK, so this is what eternal fire is. It is fire whose effects are eternal. It is not fire the literally burns forever. Because Sodom and Gomorrah are definitely not burning anymore, despite having been burned by eternal fire. The fire is eternal because that area is still in ashes today, 5 thousand years later.

These are the strongest verses in support of ECT, and it really is sad how weak they are. They seem to be solid when you assume they're right and don't actually think about them in a critical mindset, but when challenged, they just crumble.

 

[Der Alte]

This is not talking about humans.

Yes it is, one of the three living being thrown into the LOF and tormented day and night for ever an ever, the false prophet is a human being.

I wonder what eternal fire is. Is it fire that literally burns forever, or is it fire whose effects are eternal?

The scripture says "eternal fire" the adjective "eternal" modifies "fire" it does not say "the eternal effects of fire." This is a common ploy with heterodox religious groups

Yes. Eternal punishment Not eternal punish

ing. (Der Alter, yes I know the Greek, we have already debated the Greek - there's nothing solid on either side.)

You evidently know nothing about the Greek. As I said before this is a ridiculous argument. If the punishment does not last forever neither does "eternal life" because is says "eternal life[noun]" not "eternal living[verb.] Jesus is qujoted as using the word for death 17 times in the NT. If Jesus meant "eternal death" that is what He would have said.

OK? So people about to be cast into a lake of fire are going to be very upset and angry.

More absurdity. More twisting of scriptujre. The scripture does not say "there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth then they cast into the furnace" The scripture says "they will be cast into a furnace of fire where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth"

OK, so this is what eternal fire is. It is fire whose effects are eternal. It is not fire the literally burns forever. Because Sodom and Gomorrah are definitely not burning anymore, despite having been burned by eternal fire. The fire is eternal because that area is still in ashes today, 5 thousand years later.

Yet more twisting of scripture. Why is it that you cannot support your doctrine without twisting scripture? Jude 7 says "eternal fire" not the "eternal effects of fire" And Jude 7 does not say the example or vengeance is eternal only the fire.

These are the strongest verses in support of ECT, and it really is sad how weak they are. They seem to be solid when you assume they're right and don't actually think about them in a critical mindset, but when challenged, they just crumble.

This is the "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" argument. Just make a bunch of empty assertions and provide no, zero, none evidence. I'll be waiting for you to make the verses crumble.

 

[ClementofA]

No I'm not the amateur here. AFAIK I'm the only person in this discussion who has actually studied both Hebrew and Greek

Relative to Hebrew & Greek scholars you are an amateur. If only the remarks by such matter, then any private opinion of yours is worthless. That includes your opinions that AD, OLAM, AION & AIONIOS are never defined as a finite age, epoch or duration. Lexicons oppose you in that regard. They also oppose your purely amateurish speculation that those 4 words never refer to a finite duration, except when used as hyperbole.

There is a difference between "can mean" and "is sometimes used for." Are the phrases the "whole world" and "all the world" sometimes used to refer to something less than the entire planet in the NT?

You tell me. Do you have a point to make?

When you have earned a graduate degree in Greek and/or Hebrew/ with an additional decade or two of research, study and teaching,you might have the requisite expertise to make such claims. Otherwise that is just your agenda speaking.

I don't need a degree to post what multiple scholars support, that the words "no end" is how Scripture would have expressed - endless - punishment if that were its teaching. Since Scripture does not do so, endless punishment is a false teaching. You have provided nothing on this subject, whether your own amateur opinion, or anything from a scholar that opposes it. So the argument stands.

​

Guess you missed Muraoka's definition "everlasting" for "aionios.

Evidently you missed the point of what i posted:

Muraoka defines aidios as "everlasting". But for aionios his definitions are "1. lasting for very long, everlasting" & "2.having existed very long, long past, ancient" (p.19).

Clearly aidios was a superior word to express endless punishment over aionios at Dan.12:2, if that is what God meant. So He didn't.

"A Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint Hardcover – Dec 31 2009
by T Muraoka (Author), p.14)
https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Septuagint-T-Muraoka/dp/9042922486

According to your pronouncements the LXX translators must not have believed that God or His covenant were eternal since they did not use "aidios" to describe Him..

Wrong. If they believed the Scriptures & the LXX they evidently did believe God is endless, using both "no end" and AIDIOS:

Psa.102:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have NO END.

Wisdom 7:26 She’s the brightness that shines forth from eternal(AIDIOS) light. She’s a mirror that flawlessly reflects God’s activity. She’s the perfect image of God’s goodness.

As I said above you do not have the requisite expertise to make these determinations. Just more of your agenda.

See Muraoka above.

Linking to Amazon is meaningless. I'm sure you don't own them and I don't intend to buy every book at Amazon you link to.

It's a reference for readers who have a serious interest in the subject or the book to learn more about it and or purchase it. Not you, perhaps.

Which "early church father universalists"[plural] I only know of one and his writings are contradictory as I have shown you from his commentary on John.

The point wasn't about aionios, but universalism, though why would all the early church father universalists & other early church universalists believe in it if they had your errant view that aionios is always defined as nothing but eternal:

So why don't you just believe the early church father universalists who were Greek scholars? Or you could ask the Holy Spirit to teach you. Then you wouldn't have to rely on man's opinions. Not that your "Greek or Hebrew" experts agree, which leaves you in the dark as far as knowing who to trust and trusting them is concerned. BTW if you had read the following then you would have known it quotes some scholars & is not an "anonymous website" but refers to 2 successive posts on these forums:

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Amateurish refuse no, zero, none evidence that the folks at this website have any relevant expertise.

There is no proof that - anyone - (1) has the "relevant expertise" & is (2) presenting the full truth & nothing but the truth & (3) doing so honestly, objectively & without any bias & (4) has not purposely left out important info & (5) has not only published the info that would sell more books for filthy lucre or man's esteem, or position, etc. Scholars disagree with scholars on many points. Show me where BDAG or any other pro endless punishment biased lexicon or scholar has cited Origen's use of aionios as finite or this from early church father Chrysostom:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

Aionios is of finite duration above, not eternal.

More examples re aion/ios (& olam) being finite:

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

aionios life, 2 UR views, eon/ian ends, millennial eon, 1 Jn.1:2, Chrysoston, Origen, Dan 12 2-3:
how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

John 3:36, 3:16, 1 Jn.1:2, aionios life:
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10 & forever & ever a deceptive translation:
If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

 

[Oseas]

Where in the Bible are you coming up with idea that souls are eternal? Until I read it for myself, it sounds like you are making claims without backing them up with Scripture. And that's part of your problem here, thus why you are asking----how can someone who is destroyed be tormented for ever? The reason you are asking that is because you are assuming all souls are eternal.

When it comes to something involving eternity, only one of the following two options can fit with something that exists forever.

A---shall never be destroyed
B---to destroy


Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed : and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


It's as simple as this, with eternity in mind. Only 'never can be destroyed' can mean to exist forever. To destroy can never mean to exist forever. But if I am wrong then prove it with Daniel 2:44 by showing how both A and B above can mean to exist forever in that verse. And if you manage to do that, I will change my position just like that, thus agree with the position of ECT instead.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed : and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Daniel 2:44 you have posted will fulfil LITERALLY in this seventh and last Millennium or seventh and last Day, and the Millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Truth, the Millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the Millennium of Vengeance.

What says the Word of God?

And the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels (remember, there are angels like the angels of the seven Churches of Asia), in flaming fire, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Who will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

He must come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in this Day (the last Day, one Day with the Lord is as a thousand years). Who is worthy to enter in the Kingdom of God
which will be established in this seventh and last Millennium, the Millennium of Christ, or seventh and last Day? (one Day with the Lord is as a thousand years). Who is worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power? That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ?.

 

[Oseas]

But the bible say that people will be tortured in hell forever, how can someome who is dead be tortured for ever?

But the bible say that people will be tortured in hell forever, how can someome who is dead be tortured for ever?

Daniel 12:v.2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[jovanovic]

This is not talking about humans.


I wonder what eternal fire is. Is it fire that literally burns forever, or is it fire whose effects are eternal?


No one can. Duh.


Yes. Eternal punishment. Not eternal punishing. (Der Alter, yes I know the Greek, we have already debated the Greek - there's nothing solid on either side.)


OK? So people about to be cast into a lake of fire are going to be very upset and angry.


OK, so this is what eternal fire is. It is fire whose effects are eternal. It is not fire the literally burns forever. Because Sodom and Gomorrah are definitely not burning anymore, despite having been burned by eternal fire. The fire is eternal because that area is still in ashes today, 5 thousand years later.

These are the strongest verses in support of ECT, and it really is sad how weak they are. They seem to be solid when you assume they're right and don't actually think about them in a critical mindset, but when challenged, they just crumble.

it is, read the full verse. and humans are going to that SAME hellfire as angels and satan are.

whats the point with a enternal fire if not to burn people for ever and ever?

yeah, being burned for ever, nobody can withstand that, its a terrible thing to be in hell.

Eternal punishment is same as eternal punishing. people in heaven have enternal joy with no pain, no hunger etc, people in hell have enternal agony, pain, hunger etc.

that verse says that people who are in the lake of fire will weep and gnashing of teeth, how can they do that if they according to you are dead?

the eternal fire is called eternal because it is eternal, if it was not eternal why does the bible call it eternal? sodom and gommarah was on earth, you can not compare that to hellfire.

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

Yes it is, one of the three living being thrown into the LOF and tormented day and night for ever an ever, the false prophet is a human being.

Well that is very debatable. And it certainly isn't talking about every wicked human.

If the punishment does not last forever

The punishment DOES last forever.

The scripture says "they will be cast into a furnace of fire where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth"

OK, so IF this same grammatical distinction is clear in the ancient Greek (I highly doubt it), it means that they will be gnashing their teeth and wailing while being burned. Does this mean they will be doing so forever? Of course not!

Jude 7 says "eternal fire" not the "eternal effects of fire" And Jude 7 does not say the example or vengeance is eternal only the fire.

Right. Because he is describing the fire. Non-eternal fire doesn't have eternal effects. Eternal fire DOES have eternal effects. Eternal fire is special fire. Its effects are eternal.

This is the "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" argument. Just make a bunch of empty assertions and provide no, zero, none evidence.

I don't even know how to respond to this.

 

[jovanovic]

Daniel 12:v.2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 13:50
and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

it is, read the full verse. and humans are going to that SAME hellfire as angels and satan are.

So if you throw a fish into a bowl of water and it is OK, does that mean an ant won't drown if also thrown in?

whats the point with a enternal fire if not to burn people for ever and ever?

Its effects are eternal. They shall never be undone. Just like in Sodom.

Eternal punishment is same as eternal punishing.

So you don't think that a public execution could be considered an eternal punishment? That the effects of that execution aren't eternal? That the execution is not eternal?

that verse says that people who are in the lake of fire will weep and gnashing of teeth, how can they do that if they according to you are dead?

Um, so they do that before they die. This is really quite simple.

sodom and gommarah was on earth, you can not compare that to hellfire.

Why not? The Bible did.

the eternal fire is called eternal because it is eternal, if it was not eternal why does the bible call it eternal?

It is eternal. It is no less eternal than eternal fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. And there is no reason to believe it is any more eternal than the eternal fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah unless you need it to and are wiling to defy simple rules of logic and to masterfully and powerfully warp key passages in scripture.

 

[ClementofA]

Where in the Bible are you coming up with idea that souls are eternal? Until I read it for myself, it sounds like you are making claims without backing them up with Scripture. And that's part of your problem here, thus why you are asking----how can someone who is destroyed be tormented for ever? The reason you are asking that is because you are assuming all souls are eternal.

When it comes to something involving eternity, only one of the following two options can fit with something that exists forever.

A---shall never be destroyed
B---to destroy


Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed : and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


It's as simple as this, with eternity in mind. Only 'never can be destroyed' can mean to exist forever. To destroy can never mean to exist forever. But if I am wrong then prove it with Daniel 2:44 by showing how both A and B above can mean to exist forever in that verse. And if you manage to do that, I will change my position just like that, thus agree with the position of ECT instead.

Literal translations of the Hebrew and LXX (which uses the word AION, age) say for Daniel 2:44:

'And in the days of these kings raise up doth the God of the heavens a kingdom that is not destroyed -- to the age, and its kingdom to another people is not left: it beateth small and endeth all these kingdoms, and it standeth to the age. [YLT]

In their days, that is, of these kings, the Eloah of the heavens will set up a kingdom that for the eons shall not come to harm. His kingdom shall not be left to another people. It will pulverize and terminate all these kingdoms, and it shall be confirmed for the eons. [CLV]

And, in the days of those kings, shall the God of the heavens, set up, a kingdom which, to the ages, shall not be destroyed, and, the kingdom, to another people, shall not be left,—it shall break in pieces and make an end of all these kingdoms, but, itself, shall stand to the ages. [RO]

into the eons, i.e. ages (APB Greek English Interlinear, LXX):
Study Bible - Online Greek Hebrew KJV Parallel Interlinear Tools

Additionally, the early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:

καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

So "the ages" (i.e. eons) of Daniel 2:44, in the context of the book of Daniel, can be interpreted as being finite. For Daniel 12:3 speaks of what is beyond "the ages".

More examples re aion/ios (& olam) being finite:

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

aionios life, 2 UR views, eon/ian ends, millennial eon, 1 Jn.1:2, Chrysoston, Origen, Dan 12 2-3:
how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

John 3:36, 3:16, 1 Jn.1:2, aionios life:
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10 & forever & ever a deceptive translation:
If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

 

[DavidPT]

Daniel 2:44 you have posted will fulfil LITERALLY in this seventh and last Millennium or seventh and last Day, and the Millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Truth, the Millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the Millennium of Vengeance.

What says the Word of God?

And the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels (remember, there are angels like the angels of the seven Churches of Asia), in flaming fire, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Who will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

He must come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in this Day (the last Day, one Day with the Lord is as a thousand years). Who is worthy to enter in the Kingdom of God
which will be established in this seventh and last Millennium, the Millennium of Christ, or seventh and last Day? (one Day with the Lord is as a thousand years). Who is worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power? That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ?.

You may very well be correct about all of the above, but none of that has anything to do with why I'm using a passage such as Daniel 2:44 in this thread.

The only relevance that Daniel 2:44 has to the topic of this thread, is this, meaning only in regards to the point I have been trying to make with it. which shall never be destroyed---this proves that it is only something that can never be destroyed that will in turn exist forever, and not something that can be destroyed that will in turn exist forever.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


What does the text above say? Does it say God is able to destroy both soul and body in hell? Or does it say God is able to never destroy both soul and body in hell? Keeping in mind, according to Daniel 2:44, it is that which can never be destroyed being that which shall exist forever. I would then think the same logic in Daniel 2:44 applies to Matthew 10:28 as well. And since the latter indicates something is destroyed, it therefore can't mean the same thing as something that is never destroyed.

 

[ClementofA]

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt, restored or repaired. Like the fixing of a car engine:

Category:Rebuilt buildings and structures - Wikipedia

"When shopping for a used car, one of the kinds of vehicles that buyers may come across is rebuilt cars. While there are slight variations from state to state, rebuilt cars are cars that have been, through accident or other means, totaled and repaired or rebuilt from the ground up."

As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":

destroy | Definition of destroy in English by Oxford Dictionaries

A common definition of "destroy":

"ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
"he has been determined to destroy her" "

The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.

The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf