Annihilation=No Wrath

[Der Alte]

The dead are those who claim to know God, but don't have a clue who he is. They are spiritually dead, and indeed know nothing. When the indoctrinate new believers with the false doctrines, they do indeed bury the them, because the make them spiritually dead like themselves.
Scripture is spiritual, not literal. God is spirit and talks spiritually. Big shock, I know, but the it is.
The dead no nothing, because they are spiritually dead. They are carnally minded, not spiritually minded. The dead walk around and go to church on sundays.

While there are many figures of speech used in the Bible the context of Eccl 9:6 clearly shows it is not speaking about being spiritually dead.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead [1] know not any thing, neither have they [2] any more a reward; for the [3] memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also [4] their love, and their [5] hatred, and their [6] envy, is now perished; [7] neither have they [8] any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.​

 

[Der Alte]

Scripture teaches a lake of fire. The question remains whether it is eternal conscience torment or a slow painful second death.
Blessings

The lake of fire [LOF] is called the second death twice Rev 20:19, 21:8 but Rev never says that anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
Rev 20:10 does say three sentient beings, one the false prophet, is a person are thrown into the LOF but they do not die they are tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev_20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

 

[BurningBush84]

While there are many figures of speech used in the Bible the context of Eccl 9:6 clearly shows it is not speaking about being spiritually dead.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6​

(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead [1] know not any thing, neither have they [2] any more a reward; for the [3] memory of them is forgotten.​

(6) Also [4] their love, and their [5] hatred, and their [6] envy, is now perished; [7] neither have they [8] any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.​

Exactly. Ecclesiastes is only talking about things that happen on earth (under the sun).

The Rich Man of Luke 16, his body stayed on earth decaying , but his soul went to Hades/hell . The beggar could have been murdered, but those who murder can only destroy the body and not the soul.

The lake of fire [LOF] is called the second death twice Rev 20:19, 21:8 but Rev never says that anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
Rev 20:10 does say three sentient beings, one the false prophet, is a person are thrown into the LOF but they do not die they are tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev_20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

Is the False Prophet human ? Wasn't Satan at one time a divine angel ? Oh but how could a loving God torment his created beings for all eternity??? That's not very loving.

When a young man gets sentenced to life in prison for murder, he is going to have to endure "hard time". Might be over 50 years to of "hard time". But if God gives the wicked a quick death on the Last Day, then mankind's wrath is worse than the wrath of God !

So God's love is so much greater than mankind's love. But mankind's wrath/justice is more greater than God's wrath/justice????

No. That makes no sense. God's wrath is greater than mankind's wrath. God's wrath is Hell.

 

[Water and Fire]

So is Romans 6:23 talking about spiritual death or physical death or Annihilation ?

Spiritual death. Physical things are just a physical reflection of a spiritual reality. BTW, I'm not an annihilationist.

 

[BurningBush84]

Spiritual death. Physical things are just a physical reflection of a spiritual reality. BTW, I'm not an annihilationist.

So did Satan write Hebrews 9:27 ??? Because if there is more than one type of death then Hebrews 9:27 is "disinformation".

Here is what Hebrews 9:27 does NOT say .

- just as some men are destined to die twice-

Why doesn't Hebrews 9:27 say that ????

 

[Der Alte]

Exactly. Ecclesiastes is only talking about things that happen on earth (under the sun).
The Rich Man of Luke 16, his body stayed on earth decaying , but his soul went to Hades/hell . The beggar could have been murdered, but those who murder can only destroy the body and not the soul.
Is the False Prophet human ? Wasn't Satan at one time a divine angel ? Oh but how could a loving God torment his created beings for all eternity??? That's not very loving.
When a young man gets sentenced to life in prison for murder, he is going to have to endure "hard time". Might be over 50 years to of "hard time". But if God gives the wicked a quick death on the Last Day, then mankind's wrath is worse than the wrath of God !
So God's love is so much greater than mankind's love. But mankind's wrath/justice is more greater than God's wrath/justice????
No. That makes no sense. God's wrath is greater than mankind's wrath. God's wrath is Hell.

A prophet would have to be human otherwise who would listen to some kind of creature? Please show me scripture which commands us to use our reasoning to decide what is/is not reasonable and explain away scripture? Why do I believe in eternal punishment? Jesus said it, I believe it that settles it.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB, p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, linked below, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..I doubt there is anyone better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks erroneously claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the N.T.
2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are more than competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Much as English speaking scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.
The dead man in Hades, Luke 16 had eyes and could see, experienced pain and thirst had a tongue. He could also recognize father Abraham and Lazarus. The 5 ECF who quoted Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual..

 

[BurningBush84]

A prophet would have to be human otherwise who would listen to some kind of creature? Please show me scripture which commands us to use our reasoning to decide what is/is not reasonable and explain away scripture? Why do I believe in eternal punishment? Jesus said it, I believe it that settles it.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB, p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, linked below, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..I doubt there is anyone better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks erroneously claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the N.T.
2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are more than competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Much as English speaking scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

And what percentage of Bible translations use the word "age" in Matthew 25:46 ???

It's the same thing with the New World Translation of John 1:1. JW's try and convince people to ignore all the other translations/versions of the Bible . Only their translation got it right. God allowed all these misleading translations. But finally in the 1960s God finally allowed a trustworthy translation to be published.

 

[Der Alte]

And what percentage of Bible translations use the word "age" in Matthew 25:46 ???
It's the same thing with the New World Translation of John 1:1. JW's try and convince people to ignore all the other translations/versions of the Bible . Only their translation got it right. God allowed all these misleading translations. But finally in the 1960s God finally allowed a trustworthy translation to be published.

The correct versions that I read never translate "aionios" as age. Some "versions" try to get around the fact that "aionios" is an adjective and "age" a noun by translating the adjective "aionios" as "of the age" or "pertaining to the age." It still does not work "age" is still a noun.

 

[BurningBush84]

The correct versions that I read never translate "aionios" as age. Some "versions" try to get around the fact that "aionios" is an adjective and "age" by translating the adjective "aionios" as "of the age" or "pertaining to the age." It still does not work "age" is still a noun.

I just looked on bible hub and only found ONE translation that said "age". All the other translations/versions said eternal or everlasting.

Do people realize that all these other versions were made by different scholars ? Different scholars with many different beliefs . But they all translated Matthew 25:46 as eternal or everlasting.

Why would God tempt mankind with a bunch of false translations/versions of the Bible and only provide one maybe 2 correct translations ???

Use your head . JW's try and say only their Bible got John 1:1 right . All the other ones are disinformation.

Do you know what JW's say about Luke 16:19-31 ????

The same thing as Annihilationalists. Let that sink in.

 

[Water and Fire]

So did Satan write Hebrews 9:27 ??? Because if there is more than one type of death then Hebrews 9:27 is "disinformation".

Here is what Hebrews 9:27 does NOT say .

- just as some men are destined to die twice-

Why doesn't Hebrews 9:27 say that ????

Because....

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

It very clearly says that being carnally minded is death. What's the problem? You can either be alive spiritually and dead to the flesh, or alive
to the flesh and dead spiritually.


Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Count them, there are two kinds of dead. Physical death does not count.

 

[BurningBush84]

Because....

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

It very clearly says that being carnally minded is death. What's the problem? You can either be alive spiritually and dead to the flesh, or alive
to the flesh and dead spiritually.


Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Count them, there are two kinds of dead. Physical death does not count.

Physical death does not count as a death ??? You already counted it as a death by calling it a death . So I don't understand what your saying. So Jesus never raised anybody from the dead ? Because physical death doesn't count as a death ? So Jesus never died ? Because physical death doesn't count ??? No one ever died ?? I agree the soul never dies. But bodies do die and decay.

 

[BurningBush84]

Physical death does not count as a death ??? You already counted it as a death by calling it a death . So I don't understand what your saying. So Jesus never raised anybody from the dead ? Because physical death doesn't count as a death ? So Jesus never died ? Because physical death doesn't count ??? No one ever died ?? I agree the soul never dies. But bodies do die and decay.

What type of death did Jesus die if physical death doesn't count? What type of death is Hebrews 9:27 referring to then ?

 

[Water and Fire]

Killing and dying are spiritual concepts in scripture. God is spirit and his word is spirit. Physical death is just sleep, as far as God is concerned.

 

[BurningBush84]

Killing and dying are spiritual concepts in scripture. God is spirit and his word is spirit. Physical death is just sleep, as far as God is concerned.

Well The Rich Man and Lazarus from Luke 16 were not sleeping after their bodies died.

But Jesus must have been extremely drunk when he told that story right? He was drunk and didn't mean what he said right ? He was just drunk and spewing a bunch of misleading disinformation in Luke 16 ?

 

[ozso]

Well The Rich Man and Lazarus from Luke 16 were not sleeping after their bodies died.

But Jesus must have been extremely drunk when he told that story right? He was drunk and didn't mean what he said right ? He was just drunk and spewing a bunch of misleading disinformation in Luke 16 ?

If the wicked are annihilated, it will happen on the Last Day aka Judgement Day. Since that hasn't happened yet, Richie has been roasting for at least 2000 years. Is it really that upsetting if God decides to finally smite Richie after all that time of torment?

 

[Water and Fire]

Well The Rich Man and Lazarus from Luke 16 were not sleeping after their bodies died.

But Jesus must have been extremely drunk when he told that story right? He was drunk and didn't mean what he said right ? He was just drunk and spewing a bunch of misleading disinformation in Luke 16 ?

Umm, which part of that story being a parable, do you not understand?

 

[ozso]

Umm, which part of that story being a parable, do you not understand?

I bet I know who's going to post why it suposedly can't be a parable, and what that post is going to contain.

 

[BurningBush84]

Umm, which part of that story being a parable, do you not understand?

As if Jesus only told parables when he was drunk. The meaning of that parable is so simple . Verse 31 sums it all up. And it's talking about Annihilationists. You are they.

‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’” Luke 16:31

Well Jesus rose from the dead and he warned people about Hell many times. He even gave mankind Luke 16:19-31 . Yet people still are not convinced Hell exists.

Verse 31 is talking about people who deny Hell , who deny a place of eternal torment/ eternal punishment. Your proving Jesus words to be true . Verse 31 is talking about you.

 

[ozso]

As if Jesus only told parables when he was drunk. The meaning of that parable is so simple . Verse 31 sums it all up. And it's talking about Annihilationists.

‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’” Luke 16:31

Well Jesus rose from the dead and he warned people about Hell many times. He even gave mankind Luke 16:19-31 . Yet people still are not convinced Hell exists.

Verse 31 is talking about people who deny Hell , who deny a place of eternal

As if Jesus only told parables when he was drunk. The meaning of that parable is so simple . Verse 31 sums it all up. And it's talking about Annihilationists. You are they.

‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’” Luke 16:31

Well Jesus rose from the dead and he warned people about Hell many times. He even gave mankind Luke 16:19-31 . Yet people still are not convinced Hell exists.

Verse 31 is talking about people who deny Hell , who deny a place of eternal torment/ eternal punishment. Your proving Jesus words to be true . Verse 31 is talking about you.

torment/ eternal punishment. Your proving Jesus words to be true . Verse 31 is talking about you.

I think you're taking verse 31 out of context.

28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." Luke 16:28-29

Moses and the prophets never said anything whatsoever about eternal torment in hell.

30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ” Luke 16:30-31

That is about the five brother's lack of repentance, not their belief regarding eternal torment hell. Which they never would have heard about from the scriptures (Moses and the prophets) at that point. Because the OT doesn't say anything about it.

Except maybe one verse in Isaiah and one verse in Daniel, but that's a bit of a stretch.

Also I'm wondering if five brothers is symbolic of something. Luke 16:19-31 is full of possible symbology a lot of people miss.

 

[BurningBush84]

I think you're taking verse 31 out of context.

28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." Luke 16:28-29

Moses and the prophets never said anything whatsoever about eternal torment in hell.

30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ” Luke 16:30-31

That is about the five brother's lack of repentance, not their belief regarding eternal torment hell. Which they never would have heard about from the scriptures (Moses and the prophets) at that point. Because the OT doesn't say anything about it.

Except maybe one verse in Isaiah and one verse in Daniel, but that's a bit of a stretch.

Also I'm wondering if five brothers is symbolic of something. Luke 16:19-31 is full of possible symbology a lot of people miss.

" Moses and the Prophets" mean the Scriptures.