Angry Men

[bèlla]

I don't know how, exactly, but coming up I understood that being a man was something I was to strive towards, not something that just happened or to which I was entitled.

Do you think boys are receiving the same message today?

Coming up, I had models I would look at and say, "That's a man. That's what it means to be a man."

Do you feel that male role models are less plentiful today? What alternatives would you recommend if they’re lacking?

I do wonder how much male disenfranchisement comes from loss of identity, an identity worth striving towards. Sometimes anger is rooted in fear, fear of loss. And then there's resentment towards the percieved cause of said loss.

What sustains male identity?

 

[Chesterton]

Perhaps you see no use for natural remedies but many are seeking alternatives to prescription drugs.

Are there drugs for anger? I'm not being snarky, I honestly don't know.

 

[bèlla]

Are there drugs for anger? I'm not being snarky, I honestly don't know.

I’m not familiar with them. But I am aware of calming remedies that many use to offset depression and anxiety. Some medication leaves the user lethargic and causes other issues.

 

[Sabertooth]

In your opinion, where should the acknowledgment and validation they’re seeking come from?

For me, it really had/has to come from the inside. I was an over-achiever in school, but a washout in the world of work. When I didn't know why, I blamed myself (like everyone else did) for not trying hard enough/being lazy. When I received my diagnosis (and having two children with aggravated autism), I lowered my expectations some and made better use of the resources that I did have.

(I have been very employable in a seller's-market economy. I even got a patent for one of my previous employers...)

 

[mothcorrupteth]

I'm not angry, and certainly not over disenfranchisement. But I am pretty disenchanted how I invested a number of my formative years buying into the neoliberal project of treating everybody on the basis of their character rather than on their identity interest group, only to be told now that that's sexist/racist/homophobic/etc.

You're a woman. Who cares? If you're Ellen Ripley from Alien, if you know what you're doing and it shows, I don't mind listening to and following your ideas as our leader. I am a consistent neoliberal meritocrat on the question of men and women. But there are a lot of women who aren't Ellen Ripley but seem to think they should get Ellen Ripley's perks just because they are female and belong to a generation of humans that has bucked thousands of years of evolutionary conditioning and decided, against all evidence to the contrary, that male bodies and female bodies are just arbitrary vessels for completely sexless Platonic souls that are essentially identical. Well, we're not sexless souls, and Ellen Ripley had to earn the respect we have for her character through her intelligent and ethically conscious decision-making. She didn't selectively play the "ah, I'm a defenseless damsel" card to cost men their jobs with frivolous sexual harassment claims and then turn around act all tough once she was at the top of the heap. She just acted tough the whole way through. And that's why she lived in the escape pod whereas Dallas died in the vents. That's why we cheer for her. If you're not willing to act tough the whole way through, don't expect people to cheer.

But if you believe in meritocracy and practice it in today's work environment, you're toast. I'm not disenfranchised by that, and I'm not angry about it. It's just, I can understand why a lot of young men feel they are. Because we were sold on a hypocritical lie.

 

[bèlla]

For me, it really had/has to come from the inside.

I agree. Do you think the external need is to combat unbelief and self-esteem issues?

When I received my diagnosis (and having two children with aggravated autism), I lowered my expectations some and made better use of the resources that I did have.

It is often a necessity in life for most. Overachievers forget it a time or ten. ;-)

(I have been very employable in a seller's-market economy. I even got a patent for one of my previous employers...)

Congratulations! I wish you continued success in your work.

 

[ChicanaRose]

In your opinion, where should the acknowledgment and validation they’re seeking come from? Was it a failure at home, work, or something else?

To give one example, I've met a prominent man in another church, who expected people to be sort of "star-struck" by him. When I greeted him naturally like a normal person, he expressed displeasure because of my lack of fascination with him.

Sometimes, when I visit a new church, I don't know what's going on or who is who and greet people as usual. But then shortly after, I see people come up to that person and thank him for all of his services. And then I realize why that person looked at me weird: Because I merely greeted him when he was expecting words of appreciation from everyone.

While we should be appreciative of people who serve in the church, ultimately, one's validation should come from God, himself, and his family. He cannot expect the world to know him, all of his works, and to fall in love with him. That would be ego.

 

[Sabertooth]

I agree. Do you think the external need is to combat unbelief and self-esteem issues?

For the unsaved, there needs to be a sense of contribution that is recognized on some level. Having Jesus, that is satisfied as long as I have a sense that I am walking in His will, whether others recognize it or not.

Congratulations! I wish you continued success in your work.

That was in the past. I am semi-retired, now.

 

[JM]

What are the root causes of male disenfranchisement? How do we help them manage their anger in a healthy way? How have you tackled this within yourself or with others?

Please share your thoughts.

I would say feminism is to blame.

 

[ChicanaRose]

I would say feminism is to blame.

Even if that were the case, two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[bèlla]

But I am pretty disenchanted how I invested a number of my formative years buying into the neoliberal project of treating everybody on the basis of their character rather than on their identity interest group, only to be told now that that's sexist/racist/homophobic/etc.

Would you say your disenchantment is common? Have you heard the same echoed by others?

But if you believe in meritocracy and practice it in today's work environment, you're toast. I'm not disenfranchised by that, and I'm not angry about it. It's just, I can understand why a lot of young men feel they are. Because we were sold on a hypocritical lie.

Who benefits most from the bias you’ve mentioned?

 

[bèlla]

For the unsaved, there needs to be a sense of contribution that is recognized on some level.

Is his validation sated by work-related accolades? Or will he require more if he’s unsaved?

 

[bèlla]

I would say feminism is to blame.

Would you say the movement in itself or specific ideologies are the problem?

 

[Sabertooth]

Is his validation sated by work-related accolades? Or will he require more if he’s unsaved?

It probably depends on the guy. Most will be happy with the former, but some of my own sons are offended when they get bested in one arena, though they have been off-the-chart in another. (Around here, we call that a Batman complex.)

Then there is the Solomon effect as he declares it in Ecclesiastes, "Vanity of vanities...!"

 

[bèlla]

To give one example, I've met a prominent man in another church, who expected people to be sort of "star-struck" by him. When I greeted him naturally like a normal person, he expressed displeasure because of my lack of fascination with him.

I don’t think its fair for him to expect you to feed his desire for adulation. It can swiftly turn into vainglory if we’re not careful.

And then I realize why that person looked at me weird: Because I merely greeted him when he was expecting words of appreciation from everyone.

Most people don’t expect a stranger to be conversant in their love language. His displeasure leads me to think otherwise.

He cannot expect the world to know him, all of his works, and to fall in love with him. That would be ego.

It was. ;-)

The challenge with personalities like his is their unwillingness to recognize others. Especially if they feel their spotlight is threatened. They need to be the center of attention. You’d have to feed the monster continually.

 

[public hermit]

Do you think boys are receiving the same message today?

I can't say anything general. it depends on the context. I came up in a context where a particular system of shame was in place. If you had a hard job to do and whined and complained while doing it, or just gave up, then you were made to realize that wasn't acceptable. It was a very effective system.

I think I learned early on that being able to endure difficult situations, usually physical, was part of being a man. I have wondered if initially boys were taught not to cry, not to make them heartless, but to ensure they would be able to fulfill difficult and dangerous tasks without giving up. Of course, with our leisurely society men aren't necessarily expected to endure the difficult and dangerous as was once was the case. And yet, I think to myself, God didn't give us strong bodies for sitting at the computer.

I worry about boys growing up. As a society, I think we have deconstructed the male without building him back up. Much of what boys and men hear is what they do wrong. No doubt, there is plenty to point out, as we saw on that other thread. Nonetheless, grown men with no purpose, no goal, no hope are dangerous.

Do you feel that male role models are less plentiful today? What alternatives would you recommend if they’re lacking?

The ones I grew up with are less plentiful. I don't know. I believe there was and is a lot to be corrected in what was traditionally understood as a man. When I was an adolescent, I admired one older gentleman who was very hard working, very quiet, almost expressionless. As an adolescent that was attractive to me as a male. He seemed strong and above the fray. For some time I made that my goal. But, it was not real helpful in my relationships, particular with women. They wanted to talk and I had already said all I needed to when I said, "Hey." So, I don't know what the right role model is that captures the strength and character of "manliness," but at the same time can have a decent conversation and even share feelings. So, not all changes have been bad. But in some cases we ate the peel and threw out the banana.

What sustains male identity?

God. (kidding/not kidding) It does help to trust in Someone other than one's own self. I think about it, as I am sure many men do: How will I act when the time of trial comes? Will I be able to help, or will I be fit for the task, or will I be afraid? I have a pretty good idea of what I am capable of. But, what I am capable of is wholly supported by faith that when it is all said and done, if I am maimed or if I die, life will still obtain. I'm a lot stronger with God backing me up, so to speak.

 

[bèlla]

It probably depends on the guy. Most will be happy with the former, but some of my own sons are offended when they get bested in one arena, though they have been off-the-chart in another. (Around here, we call that a Batman complex.)

Are they goal-driven or overachievers?

Then there is the Solomon effect as he declares it in Ecclesiastes, "Vanity of vanities...!"

That’s pretty popular.

 

[~Zao~]

A diet that’s heavy on meats have been said to cause anger.

 

[Kaon]

I just answered. I think this is a subject you may have insight on.

I think the men that are feeling disenfranchised are coming from families that experienced entitlement and luxuries previously unknown. I don't think they realize the luxuries they had - just that they are gone now.

Also, there is a real "environmental" factor affecting men, and even a spiritual one. The environmental factor is at least the massive amounts of estrogen and estrogen-generating chemicals in the water and food. I think someone already mentioned this in the thread. Since male culture of yesteryear didn't focus on health and nutrition so much, the man of today now feels the effects. A lot of men won't believe how they are being engineered physically and psychologically because men like to believe in control - and how can they be in control if there is a conspiracy to change them from the foundation from the outside?

If men don't have control, then they lose confidence. Loss of confidence affects relationships adversely; a man who is unsure of himself is not a man yet. The last financial correction showed a bunch of American men that they are not impervious to the qualms and burdens hyphenated Americans go through, and the decade after is solidifying that fact.

That is also what is upsetting people. A hyphenated American is a psychology; assimilation brings a hyphenated American closer to the American identity just like with any nation. So the "idea" of a pure American is being challenged right now. Besides the cliche male attributes that are associated with a man/male and provider, it is the fact that now many men who were "supposed" to be secure until after retirement find themselves competing with their psychological lesser - due to globalization. Now, blacks, indians, latinos and people who identify as arab can get excellent jobs in America, and they are actually in demand here and around the world. This is also why you see this uprising in tribalism; men are trying to regain something that was never owed to them in the first place.


The spiritual reason men are feeling like this is because there is about to be a paradigm shift. The current shift is technically moving from both femininity and masculinity into angrogyny. This is also confusing for men, as this paradigm isn't immediate to today's man (since androgyny hasn't been celebrated like it will be since Babylon and Sumer.) So, even the less masculine of men are finding themselves out of place in general as the world shifts toward androgyny in politics, intellect, government and spirit.


If men could deny their urges to be basic, then we wouldn't need to feel basic. In other words, we need to stop "acting" the part of a man, choose this day what we individually believe makes a man, and then stick to that no matter what the paradigm is. The reason we have "masculinity" totems in the first place - from thousands of years of behavior - is because one of the more important qualities of a man is consistency. This is why the qualities that actually make a man are abstract.


The sum of these frustrations is the "anger" we see - part engineered, part spiritual manipulation. That's my opinion.

 

[Sabertooth]

Are they goal-driven or overachievers?

I'm not really sure. Some might say narcissistic. That they feel degraded if they aren't recognized as the best in everything. I am happy to let others be the experts in areas that I am not even interested in. I know that there are those with more expertise in subjects that I am interested in, too, but in so many "rooms," I am that person. When I do run into such a person (if they are likeable), I either collaborate with them or sit at their feet and learn even more.