Originally Posted by Danoh
. . . I believe that "once in, ever in" Rom. 5; Eph. 1.
If you believe likewise than we are brothers in Christ regardless of your being off-base in your Eschatology.
If they don't believe in "once in, ever in" then perhaps they got in but then what's out there - like misinterpretation of passages like that one in Hebrews you cite here - got a hold of them, and they are "still in," but confused.
Fallen from their understanding of this grace wherein we stand before God in His Son, justified in Him, and thus, at peace with us, as far as God is concerned, Gal. 5:4; Romans 5:1.
Contrary to popular opinion faith in Christ is not a religion it is a Person. There is a religion in the Bible - the perfect law of liberty that is the Mosaic Law to those to whom that pertains - the Coming Liberator it both pointed that nation to and will celebrate Him through as His peculiar people pointed out as such through said Law.
Along that line, as to the above Hebrews passage, this is the Mid-Acts Perspective...
The Body of Christ began with God's demonstration of His longsuffering in its first member: the Apostle Paul in Acts 9 [Romans 9:22-23; 1 Timothy 1:11-16].
In other words, under Grace - Mystery Grace, at that, Eph. 3, in contrast to John 1's and 1 Peter's Prophesied Grace.
In this, Romans thru Philemon are Body Truth [Jew and Gentile in one New Man, with, or after, Israel's fall], Romans 1-3; 9-11; etc.
Hebrews thru Revelation being Truth as to the Believing Remnant of Israel - the Israel of God.
In this, passages like Hebrews 2 and Hebrews 6 are speaking to Israel concerning that Pentecost foretaste of their word to come. They saw the God of their fathers work great miracles in Acts by His Spirit; they tasted their world to come.
For them to reject that, was to reject the Son that foretaste confirmed. Many of them of which would have the Son die for their nation all over again as they did not believe the Spirit's witness.
In this, Hebrews thru Revelation bear a pre-Acts 28 writing. James 1:1, for example, matches Acts 8:1, etc. 2 Peter 3, taking up where Peter left off in Acts 3 and so on...
As God interrupted pouring out His 2nd Advent wrath, per Romans 9, Hebrews thru Revelation's truth thus awaits a time prior to the 2nd Advent.
The parenthesis is not that Church which is His Body. Rather, His delay in His return to His Messianic Church is: its belief "Thou art the Christ; the Son of the living God: the King of Israel," John 1; Matt. 16 Acts 1-3; 1 Peter 1; 2 Peter 3, etc.
That God chose to do this - that I describe below - in the interim of said Prophesied delay, Daniel 9, is what throws people off as to what the actual parenthesis is.
Romans 9:
22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24. Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
This here is on hold, as it is actually a continuation of Paul's earlier thought as to what of Israel:
25. As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28. For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
That is on hold, as this plays out:
30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33. As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Verse 32 and 33 are Matthew thru John - it speaks of their stumbling. Romans 11 deals with their fall.
This here - Romans 10:19, 20 - deals with the Early Acts witness comprised of those of Israel considered nobodies by the fallen religious elite of that nation - thus, "lost sheep" or "sheep without a shepherd" - their ishermen, tax collectors, the poor and even harlots, who believed on Him - the Israel of God, in contrast to those of that nation uncircumcised in their hearts and ears, verses 18a, 21:
18. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Verse 18b is creations witness itself to that nation. Here is this "little flock" within a disobedient and gain saying nation:
19. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Just as Isaiah had prophesied as to who among that nation would believe on their Messiah - their nobodies.
Anyway, that is a very short perspective of the scope, context, and thus, the uniquely intended sense that passages like Hebrews 6 are to be understood in light of.
. . . I believe that "once in, ever in" Rom. 5; Eph. 1.
If you believe likewise than we are brothers in Christ regardless of your being off-base in your Eschatology.
What if someone doesn't believe exactly like you do, Danoh?
Not to complicate the issue, but how do you interpret this passage?
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." -- Heb 6:4-6
If they don't believe in "once in, ever in" then perhaps they got in but then what's out there - like misinterpretation of passages like that one in Hebrews you cite here - got a hold of them, and they are "still in," but confused.
Fallen from their understanding of this grace wherein we stand before God in His Son, justified in Him, and thus, at peace with us, as far as God is concerned, Gal. 5:4; Romans 5:1.
Contrary to popular opinion faith in Christ is not a religion it is a Person. There is a religion in the Bible - the perfect law of liberty that is the Mosaic Law to those to whom that pertains - the Coming Liberator it both pointed that nation to and will celebrate Him through as His peculiar people pointed out as such through said Law.
Along that line, as to the above Hebrews passage, this is the Mid-Acts Perspective...
The Body of Christ began with God's demonstration of His longsuffering in its first member: the Apostle Paul in Acts 9 [Romans 9:22-23; 1 Timothy 1:11-16].
In other words, under Grace - Mystery Grace, at that, Eph. 3, in contrast to John 1's and 1 Peter's Prophesied Grace.
In this, Romans thru Philemon are Body Truth [Jew and Gentile in one New Man, with, or after, Israel's fall], Romans 1-3; 9-11; etc.
Hebrews thru Revelation being Truth as to the Believing Remnant of Israel - the Israel of God.
In this, passages like Hebrews 2 and Hebrews 6 are speaking to Israel concerning that Pentecost foretaste of their word to come. They saw the God of their fathers work great miracles in Acts by His Spirit; they tasted their world to come.
For them to reject that, was to reject the Son that foretaste confirmed. Many of them of which would have the Son die for their nation all over again as they did not believe the Spirit's witness.
In this, Hebrews thru Revelation bear a pre-Acts 28 writing. James 1:1, for example, matches Acts 8:1, etc. 2 Peter 3, taking up where Peter left off in Acts 3 and so on...
As God interrupted pouring out His 2nd Advent wrath, per Romans 9, Hebrews thru Revelation's truth thus awaits a time prior to the 2nd Advent.
The parenthesis is not that Church which is His Body. Rather, His delay in His return to His Messianic Church is: its belief "Thou art the Christ; the Son of the living God: the King of Israel," John 1; Matt. 16 Acts 1-3; 1 Peter 1; 2 Peter 3, etc.
That God chose to do this - that I describe below - in the interim of said Prophesied delay, Daniel 9, is what throws people off as to what the actual parenthesis is.
Romans 9:
22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24. Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
This here is on hold, as it is actually a continuation of Paul's earlier thought as to what of Israel:
25. As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28. For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
That is on hold, as this plays out:
30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33. As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Verse 32 and 33 are Matthew thru John - it speaks of their stumbling. Romans 11 deals with their fall.
This here - Romans 10:19, 20 - deals with the Early Acts witness comprised of those of Israel considered nobodies by the fallen religious elite of that nation - thus, "lost sheep" or "sheep without a shepherd" - their ishermen, tax collectors, the poor and even harlots, who believed on Him - the Israel of God, in contrast to those of that nation uncircumcised in their hearts and ears, verses 18a, 21:
18. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Verse 18b is creations witness itself to that nation. Here is this "little flock" within a disobedient and gain saying nation:
19. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Just as Isaiah had prophesied as to who among that nation would believe on their Messiah - their nobodies.
Anyway, that is a very short perspective of the scope, context, and thus, the uniquely intended sense that passages like Hebrews 6 are to be understood in light of.
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