An open call for evidence

[ug333]

Entropy is the scientific concept that all matter tends toward lower
states of energy and that disorder is the trend of any ordered system.

It's pretty easy to find examples of ordered systems that take a
good amount of energy and intelligence to keep them going.

It's very hard to identify a complex system that doesn't.
And yet, the Cosmos exists.

There is no evidence of the laws of thermodynamics being violated that I am aware of. The shorthand "order from disorder" is just that, a shorthand.

The only outstanding question I am aware of regards the state of the universe prior to the big bang. And, quite simply, we don't know.

That is why entropy has never been a convincing argument for me

 

[ug333]

It's rather interesting that atheists can ask for proof that God exists but never what God is like:

since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. (Rom. 1:19,20)
​

God is self-existing and self-evident, God's glory is reflected in the things that were made. For me to prove God to you would be to prove something less then God. I have some hard news for you if your seriously asking for evidence, the Scriptures make clear you already have it. There's an up side to this though, we are all in the same boat until God intervenes. I have a suggestion for all it may be worth, just ask, say something along the lines of, 'God if your real I would like to see it'. If you have a shred of faith left that would be a good time to trust him in as much as your able.

Grace and peace,
Mark

This is the kind of argument that will never convince me.

You are convinced I wasn't a real Christian before. At the time, I certainly was convinced that i was a real Christian, and that I had a personal and transformative relationship with Jesus. Since I don't know what you experience, and you don't know what I experienced, we're at an impasse. It just becomes speculation and assumption. You may have all the justification for your belief in the world, and I don't understand what your experience. Or maybe your experiences were like mine when I was a Christian, in which case I wouldn't find your evidence convincing. We just can't know.

I can say that I asked for God to reveal himself when I first began losing my faith. Losing my faith was scary for me, and I asked with true sincerity. There was no answer that I could detect.

There is no way I can believe more today than I did then without evidence. For me, belief requires evidence, not the other way around. So if I have to believe first, then ask for evidence, I think I'm stuck. I could lie and say I believe, but I couldn't fool your God of he exists

 

[ug333]

So far I have only been in discussion with Christians, largely because of my personal background. I have investigated other faiths when I was de-converting and didn't find any evidence that made them more convincing that Christianity.

The short and simple answer of what I found problematic was the lack of evidence. I began a pattern of reinvestigating beliefs that I held in college. After nearly a decade of that behavior, I finally turned the process to theism. As a philosophical skeptic, I simply found the evidence lacking.

The scientific claims fell quickly (creationism, age of the universe ...). But I had no issue modifying my faith to accept evolution and an old universe.

As a Christian, I know I identified a feeling I would get while praying, reading scripture, or at church as evidence of God. I would also get a vague sense of what I thought was the will of God. Those two were proof to me of a relationship with God. On further inspection, I no longer saw it that way.

Once that was gone, I lost my faith entirely.

Evidence is essentially information that indicates to us that something is true. If no information indicated to someone that something was true, then they would never form the belief that it was, so it is impossible to form a belief without evidence. For example, if nothing indicated to you that I ate oatmeal for breakfast a year ago, then you would have no way of forming the belief that I did, bit it can nevertheless be reasonable to form the belief that I did based solely on the evidence of my testimony of an event that is unrepeatable and unverifiable. So while it is certainly preferable to evidence that is repeatable and verifiable, it is not reasonable to always demand evidence that is repeatable and verifiable before you will believe something, especially when it is in regard to something that is inherently not repeatable and verifiable.



While it is certainly possible for a true historical account to be edited to add a supernatural, starting that possibility is far from establishing that to be the case and accounting for the rise of Christianity if that were the case.



Of course, but this is why it is important to define what you will accept as evidence, otherwise we can run into the issue of moving goalposts.



I recommend this book:

The Resurrection of Jesus: A New Historiographical Approach: Michael R. Licona: 9780830827190: Amazon.com: Books

The author examines the evidence for the resurrection from the angle of what can be said as an historian. The fact that other books claim the same qualities does not at all mean that they have the same quality of evidence to support their claims.

Hi,
Are you just revisting theisic forms, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam. Judiasm, or are you expressly revisiting Christianity?

It will make a difference in how one responds. One response might be covering general evidence for God (Theism) or specifics evidences of the prophesied promised Messiah who was pre-existent with the Father, born of a virgin, lived out a sinless life of love and mercy, performed many miracles, suffered and died for our sins, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven where He sits at the right hand of power, and has promised that when the Gospel is successfully preached to all nations that He will return in glory to fulfill the establishment of a new man, not made after the image of fallen Adam but made after the image of Christ Himself. I do not know how deep into Christianity you went or why you rejected both the Christian worldview as well as theism. That would be an important consideration. It's better to have specific targets on which to base a discussion upon.
Before we get too immersed on what empirical points and logic you want to cover it might be better to get a better understanding of your personal background with respect to Christianity and Theism.

One suggestion in order to establish a baseline by which we might better engage in dialog might be to critique the talk and Q&A below.

Another suggestion might be to provide some background on what you generally found problematic in Christianity or more generally Theism.

After this we should be able to cut to the chase.
Sincerely, Pat

 

[JoeP222w]

I'm an ex-Christian, now an atheist.

When someone says this, the red flags fly. I don't there is such a thing, either an "ex-Christian" nor an "atheist". To claim to be an "ex-Christian" means that you once knew the truth of Jesus Christ, but are now rejecting it. This denies the power that Christ has to transform your life and grant you a new heart, so it is saying that Jesus failed, and that is simply not true. When someone claims to be an "ex-Christian", it tells me that they never knew Jesus Christ, never truly repented of their sins, never trusted in God, were never born again, and that they were a false convert to Christianity. They probably converted to Christianity out of completely false understanding of what it means to be a Christian, the grave and serious nature of their sin before a holy and perfect God, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross, the grace and mercy that God offers them in Jesus Christ. They often believe in the false statement about "accepting Jesus into your heart" as if Jesus is some poor beggar seeking the the rebel sinners approval and acceptance. They know little to nothing about Godly repentance of sin before the holy God. They Jesus as an "add-on" to their life to make them "feel" good.

I also believe, because the Bible teaches so, that there is no such thing as an Atheist. Everyone knows that God exists, they simply suppress the truth in their unrighteousness before God. So for the unregenerate, no amount of "proof" or "evidence" will convince them of the truth of God, because they are dead in their sins before the holy God, and thus reject the things of God.

To find the truth, I often revisit beliefs I have.

To claim to be an Atheist and then claim to be seeking the truth is really an oxymoron. Goes back to the point that there are no such thing as Atheists. If you truly are seeking the truth, that means that God is doing a work in you to draw you onto Him, because He is the one and only source of truth.

I'd love to hear the best evidence you have for God. How would I find out if he's real?

God has given you all the evidence He will give you, you are currently rejecting it.

Romans 1:18-25 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. (19) For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. (20) For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (21) For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (22) Claiming to be wise, they became fools, (23) and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. (24) Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, (25) because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

 

[SkyWriting]

There is no evidence of the laws of thermodynamics being violated that I am aware of. The shorthand "order from disorder" is just that, a shorthand.

The only outstanding question I am aware of regards the state of the universe prior to the big bang. And, quite simply, we don't know.

That is why entropy has never been a convincing argument for me

I never said anything about laws or such.

I said "things always tend toward disorder".
I can cite 1 milllion examples to support the case.
I can't think of one that denies the case.
So, the scientific evidence is on my side.
I don't know anything about any "Bang"
except all bangs I know of are chaotic in
nature and don't create order.
Science is based on what one can reproduce.

What we can see leads towards less usable energy.
See: Heat death of the universe - Wikipedia
Trusting things we can't see is faith and religion.

 

[AlexDTX]

I'm an ex-Christian, now an atheist. To find the truth, I often revisit beliefs I have. Right now I am revisiting theism.

I'd love to hear the best evidence you have for God. How would I find out if he's real?

I'm really looking to listen, not argue. So while I may respond to tell you why the argument doesn't convince me (if it doesn't), please understand I'm just helping you understand my position so you can counter me.

I appreciate anything you have to offer.

Christ is not known by intellectual arguments but by the heart. Evidence seen after yielding one's heart to him then becomes an intellectual support. If your heart has already rejected him, no argument will win you back.

 

[Dwells]

For me there are many things in my life that are addressed on a spiritual level that science fails to satisfy. While I have the highest regards for most areas of science, without religion addressing my spiritual side, I would feel cheated as a human being.
I personally do not believe our spirituality has to be addressed through Christianity (even though that is the way God has been revealed to me). I feel God will meet us where we live. For example,even within the Jewish faith, which Jesus was raised within, it is never a question of converting someone to Judaism, but includes an acceptance of how others may have come to know God, knowing full well that God is powerful enough to reveal Himself in many ways if He so chooses.
My suggestion to you would be, perhaps Christianity does not resonate well with you, but some other religion or form may? I believe there are many ways that God may enter our heart and reveal Himself to us.

Basically, this is your journey, if you believe spirituality is an important part of a human life.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

I'm an ex-Christian, now an atheist. To find the truth, I often revisit beliefs I have. Right now I am revisiting theism.

I'd love to hear the best evidence you have for God. How would I find out if he's real?

I'm really looking to listen, not argue. So while I may respond to tell you why the argument doesn't convince me (if it doesn't), please understand I'm just helping you understand my position so you can counter me.

I appreciate anything you have to offer.

I too was an Atheist once, although I was very young and quickly realised the untenable position I was holding so I promptly became Agnostic. Later when I came to consider Christianity with the same requirements of evidence that you say you would like, it was a simple straightforward exercise to establish the balance of probabilities as to where Jesus' dead body went to. All this required was some time on my own researching the subject and I eventually came to the conclusion that the only possible explanation was that it did indeed resurrect back to life. This in and of itself was not an overwhelming realisation as I just saw it as an unusual yet unique event in human history but it did mean that I was technically a Christian. And the rest as they say is history.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[expos4ever]

It's very hard to identify a complex system that doesn't.
And yet, the Cosmos exists.

I infer that you see this as an argument for the existence of God?

I am not an expert about things like thermodynamics and cosmology but I am almost certain that I know more than the typical western adult (that's not saying much, of course).

Here is the problem: If your argument has some merit, surely it would be more widely deployed in the debates about the existence of God.

I would like to believe you, but I am 99% certain an expert in the relevant physics would be able to find a fatal flaw in your implication. And I do not say this out of malice - quite the opposite; I would love to hear valid arguments for the existence of God.

 

[Dwells]

.the Earth is the only planet without a pagan name. God called it...Earth.

Whaaaaat???

 

[Dwells]

I would love to hear valid arguments for the existence of God.

In order to prove God to you, does one have to produce something with skin and bones? an apparition? a sign?
What would suffice in your own mind.... something of your own creation or something familiar, to prove God?

 

[expos4ever]

For me, belief requires evidence....

I empathize greatly. I am - like you I expect - not at all impressed with many of the arguments that people (well-meaning people no doubt) have put forward in this thread.

Any "evidence" I would point to in order to explain my own faith would be akin to the type that Hedrick (have you read his post - he is, in my view, an excellent thinker) expressed when he argued (I believe) that the best historical explanation for the rise of the Christian church is the factual resurrection of Jesus. That case, of course, has to be made and I do not have the time nor the knowledge.

And there are other similar arguments that at least have some plausibility. I hope to post more about this.

At the end of the day, and after 40 years of being a Christian, I would summarize my "defence" for the faith thus:

There is something fundamentally hopeful (obviously) in believing that there exists a God who is actively seeking to rescue the cosmos from slavery to decay and death. And given the richness, subtlety, and complexity of our world as we experience it, it is not altogether surprising that this God might act in ways too subtle to detect. In the absence of any compelling evidence against this picture, and given the attractive picture we are given of Jesus as the model for how to be an "ideal" human being, I simply choose to embrace this hope.

I realize this is "long on hope" and "short on evidence", but it is what it is. Again, I think there indeed some plausible arguments that go beyond this expression of "faith based on hope". If time permits, I will write more.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm an ex-Christian, now an atheist. To find the truth, I often revisit beliefs I have. Right now I am revisiting theism.

I'd love to hear the best evidence you have for God. How would I find out if he's real?

I'm really looking to listen, not argue. So while I may respond to tell you why the argument doesn't convince me (if it doesn't), please understand I'm just helping you understand my position so you can counter me.

I appreciate anything you have to offer.

Here are a couple of my favorite Biblical Evidences.

The Discovery of Mount Sinai, the Cleft Rock, and the Crossing Path of the Red Sea:

In the Scriptures we learn that the Lord literally burned the top of Mt. Sinai (Exodus 19) (Deuteronomy 5). In fact, today, people have witnessed the burned top of Mt. Sinai. A Mountain that is now called "Jabal al Lawz" in Saudi Arabia. A mountain that you can see that is burned at the top.

Exodus 19:18
"And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly."​

There is even evidence that confirms the Red Sea crossing, too. A great video to check out these evidences (That is also available on DVD if you do not like the video quality) can be watched here:



Just Click on Play Button at the following YouTube Video.

In addition, I would also recommend watching the following video here, as well. This video reveals more of the discoveries made at Mt. Sinai. Such as Elijah's cave, certain artifacts, and the split rock.

Psalms 105:41
"He opened the rock, and waters gushed out; they ran in the dry places like a river."​

Again, if you don't like the resolution of the video at YouTube, I do believe the DVD is still available on Amazon or other select sites.

We All Come From Adam and Eve:

There are also Biblical Evidences in Genetics, too. For...



In fact, to prove genetically outwardly that all races come from Adam and Eve, here are two photos that show black couples giving birth to black and white twins.




Anyways, a good (but lengthy) Christian article to read on this topic would be here:

Table of Nations by Tim Osterholm.


The Perfect Life Condtions of the Earth:
(That is fine tuned for life):


Today there are more than two hundred known parameters required for a planet to support life; For every one of these parameters must be met exactly, or there would be no life on Earth

Here are just 20 of them.

1. Earth is at the perfect distance from the sun.
(Too close and we burn up; Too far away and we would freeze).

2. Earth is in a habitable zone of galaxy where there is no radiation and wandering planetoids.

3. Earth's orbit of the sun does not take us too close to the sun.

4. Earth has the right amount of magnetic fields generated from it's core to protect us from harmful rays of the sun.

5. Earth has the right kind of star (i.e. the sun) which gives off the right amount of output that is not too strong (that would burn us up).

6. Earth is spinning at a rate that makes life possible.

7. Earth is tilted at the right axis for life.

8. Earth's moon as at the right size and distance so as to provide the perfect kind of tides for life.

9. Earth's two gas giants (i.e. Jupiter and Saturn) prevent wandering astroids from hitting the Earth.

10. Earth has the right amount of oxygen or air for life to thrive.

11. Earth has the right kind of gravity for life to thrive.

12. Earth has enough useable water so as to sustain life.

13. Earth has enough minerals, plant, and animal life so as to provide for humans.

14. Earth's atmosphere is at just the right level to protect life.

15. Earth's tectonic processes which recycle the crust are just right so as to maintain life on our planet by recycling minerals and nutrients that we need.

16. Earth's right amount of gases in the atmosphere making life suitable.

17. Earth has the right amount of carbon dioxide.

18. Earth is just the right size.

19. Earth has right amount of Nitogen that makes life possible.

20. Earth is at the right age to support life.​

Taking all these factors into account, it seem like a miracle that we are even here at all. For if even one of the above variables did not exist, then we would not exist.

The Beauty of Creation:
(That leaves us in awe and wonder):


In addition, besides the Earth's existence being miracle in and of itself, then there is the beauty that we can observe with things here on this planet Earth with our five senses, too.

• For the beauty of a sunset or a mountain side or the ocean can leave you in awe just by gazing upon them with your own two eyes.
• Then there is the beauty of taking in the fragrance of a rose that makes you think romantically to taking in the fragance of a handful of coffee beans that refreshes you.
• There is the beauty in listening to a song with your ears and how it can move your soul and emotions to great lengths.
• There is the beauty of feeling warm clean water cleanse you of dirt to the beauty of feeling the touch of the one you love.
• There is the beauty in the taste of a bunch of sweet strawberries to the taste of freshly salted cooked potatoes.

Why are there so many beautiful things within the universe?

There are many beautiful animals, trees, flowers, rivers, mountains, clouds, and stars in the heavens. Many pleasureable foods, smells, tastes, emotions, sounds, and things to touch. It seems that things are not just a random accident. It appears that there are many good and wonderful things that an Intelligent Creator has designed specifically for us so as to make us happy and to take joy in.

The Sea Worthiness of the Ark:



Another good piece of evidence that backs up God's Word is the Sea Worthiness of the Ark.

Here is a quote from a good article that talks about that.

"Noah’s Ark was the focus of a major 1993 scientific study headed by Dr. Seon Hong at the world-class ship research center KRISO, based in Daejeon, South Korea. Dr. Hong’s team compared twelve hulls of different proportions to discover which design was most practical. No hull shape was found to significantly outperform the 4,300-year-old biblical design. In fact, the Ark’s careful balance is easily lost if the proportions are modified, rendering the vessel either unstable, prone to fracture, or dangerously uncomfortable.

The research team found that the proportions of Noah’s Ark carefully balanced the conflicting demands of stability (resistance to capsizing), comfort (“seakeeping”), and strength. In fact, the Ark has the same proportions as a modern cargo ship.

The study also confirmed that the Ark could handle waves as high as 100 ft (30 m). Dr. Hong is now director general of the facility and claims “life came from the sea,” obviously not the words of a creationist on a mission to promote the worldwide Flood. Endorsing the seaworthiness of Noah’s Ark obviously did not damage Dr. Hong’s credibility.



Dr. Seon Won Hong was principal research scientist when he headed up the Noah’s Ark investigation. In May 2005 Dr. Hong was appointed director general of MOERI (formerly KRISO). Dr. Hong earned a B.S. degree in naval architecture from Seoul National University and a Ph.D. degree in applied mechanics from the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor."​

Noah's Ark is at the maximum size that is currently within man's knowledge to be possible for a wooden sea vessel.




Article Source:
Thinking Outside the Box: Size and Shape of the Ark
(Please take note that I do not believe everything AIG teaches or does, I am merely in agreement with this particular article here).

Man Was Formed Out of the Dust of the Ground:

In 1982, NASA ames research had made a discovery that the same elements that are within our body are found within the soil.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
~ (Genesis 2:7)​

Now, the chances of Moses (The author of Genesis) making such a lucky guess about a modern day scientific truth is pretty darn amazing to say the least. Granted, Moses might have been able to make one or maybe two lucky guesses or truths as we know them today, but he would not have been able to account for all of the time tested truths in all of the five books he had written in the Bible. For we could have been formed out of gold, silver, rubber trees, castor beans, actinides, or lanthanides, (all of which have different properties than clay (soil). It is also interesting to point out that Christians were criticized for believing in Genesis 2:7 before this discovery was made, too.



...

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Dwells]

Why is Earth the only planet not named after a Roman God? – Teaching Classics

And this is evidence for God......because?????

 

[Dwells]

Note (KLM) The name of the Sun has a similar origin to that of the Earth.

Where did the name 'Earth' come from? (Beginner) - Curious About Astronomy? Ask an Astronomer

Genesis 15:12
And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.

Honestly sometimes even though I'm a Christian, some arguments should not be used just because they are soooo lame.

 

[expos4ever]

In order to prove God to you, does one have to produce something with skin and bones? an apparition? a sign?
What would suffice in your own mind.... something of your own creation or something familiar, to prove God?

Thanks for answering. First, I do indeed believe, at least in the sense set forth in what I posted a moment ago (after you answered my preceding post).

Lots of the usual suspects would be convincing to me - direct and obvious signs like miracles. As I have hinted at in both my posts, I think the best candidates for evidence are things like this:

1. The argument that if Jesus had not really risen from the dead, it is hard to explain the rise of the church, given the hostile environment in which it arose;

2. There is arguably a surprising set of sophisticated themes that weave through scripture; the overall redemption narrative we see in the Bible takes such unpredictable twists and turns and yet, in the end, provides such a coherent overall flavour that it is hard to imagine that 40 + different authors were able to pull that off without a "hidden hand".

 

[Dwells]

Thanks for answering. First, I do indeed believe, at least in the sense set forth in what I posted a moment ago (after you answered my preceding post).

Lots of the usual suspects would be convincing to me - direct and obvious signs like miracles. As I have hinted at in both my posts, I think the best candidates for evidence are things like this:

1. The argument that if Jesus had not really risen from the dead, it is hard to explain the rise of the church, given the hostile environment in which it arose;

2. There is arguably a surprising set of sophisticated themes that weave through scripture; the overall redemption narrative we see in the Bible takes such unpredictable twists and turns and yet, in the end, provides such a coherent overall flavour that it is hard to imagine that 40 + different authors were able to pull that off without a "hidden hand".

1.)It helped that Constantine made it the official Roman religion for it's people and army, based on his vision justifying war. (Disregarding the "thou shalt not kill" commandment)
2.) The Bible is not one book it is many books, and these many books were written sometimes centuries after one another....so the "coherency" of the newer books were obviously based on the information from previous books and other factors.