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An open call for evidence

bling

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There is a good logical reason for God not making Himself obvious to every skeptic on earth, so if that is what you are looking for it will not happen in this life. It helps those not wanting to believe and it helps those willing to believe with their earthly objective.

True Christians have the indwelling Holy Spirit as their personal guarantee/assurance, but the indwelling Holy Spirit within me is not to be your evidence.

As a Christian we also have the world around us which perfectly fits man’s and God’s objective, but you have to understand the objective to the way this messed up world is.

I will try to address you logically, but there is a base we need to establish:

The problem is there is no quick answer.

I will address this “generally” and then you can ask specific questions.

Generally:

Without getting to philosophical: “Something has had to always exist since it is illogical to think something comes from nothing. Now some atheists have tried to get around this by saying nothing is really “something” and there is no such thing as really “nothing”. The bottom line is there has always been something. Now did that something at least include intelligence or was it just mass/energy/time/space? The problem with “excluding” intelligence is there appears to be a huge amount of intelligence that went into the design of this universe and life that makes it virtually impossible to happen by random “luck”. If there is one thing we have learned it is: “the more we know the more we realize we do not know”, so that means an ever increasing complex universe and the more complex it is the more random chances you need to make the right conditions without intelligence and the more likely scenario is there was intelligence involved.







If there is this eternal intelligence it would be at the epitome of the best it could be and not in the process of improvement. It would be the ultimate bad or good but not somewhere in-between. Why be bad when He can be good just as easily? The ultimate “good” would be what is called Godly type Love (to be defined later) and is totally unselfish type Love. Since this God would be able to direct our thinking, why would He have us think of him as being totally bad, when He could make us think bad was good and thus He would be worthy of praise? If God were bad and we praise a “Good God” than we are not praising Him.



The reason you have free will is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.





I think you could work with a: “pure "observable" philosophy” and conclude that the most likely alternative would be “There is most likely a god”. This is not to say you have solid “proof” beyond any skeptical doubt, but that it takes a lot less “faith” to believe there is a god than it takes to believe there is no god.

The “evidence” for the existence of God is all around us and has always been around man, but you have to consider the evidence to make it support or deny the existence of God.

You observe life all around you, so what is the most likely source for life to begin?

The universe surrounds you and got started some way and at some time, so how could that happen?

Now if you say: “do not know and do not care” you are avoiding the evidence, so there is where you can begin your investigation.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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So long as the religion interacts with the natural world, I think methodological naturalism can provide us evidence. The supernatural forces can never directly be tested, but they can be indirectly tested.
Well, that's going to depend on which scientific mind you listen to. I happen to lean toward Eugenie Scott's position (who is an atheist) on Methodological Naturalism, and she's doesn't really think experimental science can control God as a variable. She does think that, however, that one can affirm or disconfirm God on philosophical grounds.

Some of this is going to depend on just how much of a 'split' you see between Religion and Science. I take the view more in line with BioLogos, which is the flip side of Methodological Naturalism.

Hence:


METHODOLOGICAL APPROACH

Methodological Naturalism/BioLogos

PHILOSOPHICAL (ONTOLOGICAL) APPROACH

Philosophical Naturalism/Intelligent Design



Of course with methodological naturalism, there will always be the response "we don't know the cause". But given a sufficient evidence, I would personally accept theism as a more likely explanation.
But.....then it may be that you re simply moving over to the Philosophical Naturalist position, or to the Intelligent Design position (the flip-side of PN), if evidence seems to be accessible and/or available.

For example, it would be very convincing if prayer had a non-zero chance of healing an amputee because we have a good understanding of human regeneration, and regrowing limbs is well outside of our ability.
Then, it can be argued that you're doing philosophy, not science. Methodologically, we can't control God as a variable, and we don't know how He will respond, whether positively or negatively.

But the fine tuning argument for the universe isn't convincing because we have no clue as to the cause of the constants or to what degree they are constant. We only have our observation of the values.
Well, it sounds like we can't expect to find much in the way of scientific evidence to corroborate the bible (which is what I expect in taking the BioLogos position rather than the Intelligent Design position.)

I hope that makes my standards of evidence more clear.
Yes, it does, but this doesn't mean that you're definitely clear on the overlap or non-overlap of Religion and Science. I for one am going to suggest you take Methodological Naturalism as it is taken in the mainstream of science, and ignore the synthesis that folks like Richard Dawkins and Jerry A. Coyne take (which is more or less the Philosophical Naturalism position).

Otherwise, without clarity as to how you will come down on the issue of the divide between Religion and Science, you're kind of hop, skipping and jumping on all sides, and that can lead to an inconsistent praxis in my view.

The following video is only several minutes long and presents a contrast between Dawkins view and Eugenie Scott's view (again, both atheists).


Unless you want to go this route on this issue:


Thus, unless we all know this and agree (which we don't), along with settling the debate as to what constitutes "evidence" (which we haven't), then an agnostic call for evidence can be likened to a hunt for bats in a dark cave. :cool:

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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AlexDTX

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Did Paul not say?......Romans 5:20
Do you not believe that God's grace can work boundlessly outside of the confines of Christianity?
Believing in one God, automatically includes Jesus, there is no plurality in God. We worship God, not Gods.

I believe the grace of God spills out towards mankind because of the born again believers who follow Christ. It is because the Church of Jesus Christ is all over the world that grace flows to all mankind, but if everyone rejected Christ, then it would not, since Jesus is the Father incarnate.

There are many gods but only one God and his name is Jesus. Because of the Messiah, God is reconciled to all mankind, but not all mankind is reconciled to God. One must believe and confess that Jesus is God. Directing the poster of the thread to another religion is to direct them to another god. Those gods are all demons, that is, fallen angels who want to be worshiped.

Believing in one God does not automatically include Jesus. Muslims regard Jesus as a prophet, but not as God, therefore Allah is not God. The Jews do not regard Jesus as the Messiah, therefore their worship of Adonai is not God, but a demon.

Jas 2:19 You believe that there is one God. That's fine! Even the demons believe that and tremble with fear.

Which is to say they do not have salvation, nor do those who reject Christ.
 
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Dwells

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I believe the grace of God spills out towards mankind because of the born again believers who follow Christ. It is because the Church of Jesus Christ is all over the world that grace flows to all mankind, but if everyone rejected Christ, then it would not, since Jesus is the Father incarnate.

There are many gods but only one God and his name is Jesus. Because of the Messiah, God is reconciled to all mankind, but not all mankind is reconciled to God. One must believe and confess that Jesus is God. Directing the poster of the thread to another religion is to direct them to another god. Those gods are all demons, that is, fallen angels who want to be worshiped.

Believing in one God does not automatically include Jesus. Muslims regard Jesus as a prophet, but not as God, therefore Allah is not God. The Jews do not regard Jesus as the Messiah, therefore their worship of Adonai is not God, but a demon.

Jas 2:19 You believe that there is one God. That's fine! Even the demons believe that and tremble with fear.

Which is to say they do not have salvation, nor do those who reject Christ.
What are you saying, Jesus is separate from God, because that's what it sounds like. That would be pluralism. If someone believes in one God....Jesus would be included automatically.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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What are you saying, Jesus is separate from God, because that's what it sounds like. That would be pluralism. If someone believes in one God....Jesus would be included automatically.

Your lack of understanding does not change the truth. Here are 160 reasons in Scripture that Jesus is God.

160 Reasons Jesus Christ is Almighty God


...
 
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Dwells

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Your lack of understanding does not change the truth. Here are 160 reasons in Scripture that Jesus is God.

160 Reasons Jesus Christ is Almighty God


...

I understand quite well thank you, I think it is you that is being deceived.
You say God, Jesus and the Holy spirit are one...so do I. But you say that if someone just believes in one of those...eg. God, they will not be saved.....
Yet you continue to say that they are all one....circular reasoning.

I do believe that God is powerful enough to extend His grace to all AND it's not because of the born again believers that follow Christ.....all glory is from God IMO.
 
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Widlast

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I'm an ex-Christian, now an atheist. To find the truth, I often revisit beliefs I have. Right now I am revisiting theism.

I'd love to hear the best evidence you have for God. How would I find out if he's real?

I'm really looking to listen, not argue. So while I may respond to tell you why the argument doesn't convince me (if it doesn't), please understand I'm just helping you understand my position so you can counter me.

I appreciate anything you have to offer.
The evidence is all around you. It always has been, if you were to be honest with yourself you would admit that before anything else.
The problem is that you, like many others, only accept the evidence that supports your beliefs.
The records of the miracles performed by the saints are practically innumerable (and many are recent, not centuries ago).
You don't have to travel far to find demonic activity, they are "negative" miracles but prove the point.

The problem is not the proof, it is the bias of the observer.
 
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Anguspure

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I'm an ex-Christian, now an atheist. To find the truth, I often revisit beliefs I have. Right now I am revisiting theism.

I'd love to hear the best evidence you have for God. How would I find out if he's real?

I'm really looking to listen, not argue. So while I may respond to tell you why the argument doesn't convince me (if it doesn't), please understand I'm just helping you understand my position so you can counter me.

I appreciate anything you have to offer.
To my mind (in respect of you ex-Christian thing) you are in a similar position to young children who all, for a start off, assume the supernatural until their hearts and thinking are influenced against the concept.

If children are left to themselves however we might expect that they would continue to pin all of the evidence to the interpretative frame work of the supernatural, and this is what we observe in the world not under the influence of Naturalism.

The concept of the supernatural is "hardwired" into humanity, or as a Christian might say, it is written on our hearts.

It seems to me that you have, however become committed to a framework of Naturalism (even if only methodological), that discards the supernatural and ascribes material explanation for everything. Therefore, necessarily, you pin all of the evidence to a frame work that will never allow God's foot in the door. Such is the nature of the beast.

So it is your heart, not just your mind, that has been twisted away from Theism.

It is very difficult to show anything like proof of a Supernatural being through the chicken wire of naturalism because at the bottom of it the Naturalist will simply say that "we do not know" and refuse to go any further, this on the grounds that the material can no longer be observed (calling for empirical evidence), but probably more fundamentally because they don't want to go any further.

In contrast the Theist is drawing what is a well reasoned inference from the evidence, following its trajectory to the conclusion that (he) recognizes in the direction that the hearts of all mankind start out being turned towards. To the Super-naturalist this will be a Supernatural Mind that we call God.

As Paul wrote (and I intend this only in the Love of Christ):
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. (Romans 1)

Can I offer you evidence to satisfy the heart? Perhaps if I lived with you, and new you, God would lead me to Love you in this way, so I really hope and pray that He sends someone to you who will be able to convince you of the fundamental nature of the reality that is Love.
 
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I understand quite well thank you, I think it is you that is being deceived.
You say God, Jesus and the Holy spirit are one...so do I. But you say that if someone just believes in one of those...eg. God, they will not be saved.....
Yet you continue to say that they are all one....circular reasoning.

I do believe that God is powerful enough to extend His grace to all AND it's not because of the born again believers that follow Christ.....all glory is from God IMO.

You don't believe Jesus is God there is nothing left to talk about because that would be like rejecting God. Either look at the 160 points in Scripture or remain in ignorance.


...
 
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2PhiloVoid

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You don't believe Jesus is God there is nothing left to talk about because that would be like rejecting God. Either look at the 160 points in Scripture or remain in ignorance.


...

Com'on, Jason...let's all try to not ruin this thread so we can help ug333 find his faith again. Let's concentrate on him, not on Dwells. Besides, we're not supposed to bicker among ourselves in this section. We've got plenty of other sections for that. :cool:
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I understand quite well thank you, I think it is you that is being deceived.
You say God, Jesus and the Holy spirit are one...so do I. But you say that if someone just believes in one of those...eg. God, they will not be saved.....
Yet you continue to say that they are all one....circular reasoning.

I do believe that God is powerful enough to extend His grace to all AND it's not because of the born again believers that follow Christ.....all glory is from God IMO.

Sister Dwells, I'd like to suggest that we concentrate on ug333 since this is the Exploring Christianity section, and we aren't really supposed to be bickering among ourselves here. As I told Jason, we have other sections for that. ;)

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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Com'on, Jason...let's all try to not ruin this thread so we can help ug333 find his faith again. Let's concentrate on him, not on Dwells. Besides, we're not supposed to bicker among ourselves in this section. We've got plenty of other sections for that. :cool:

So you believe a Christian can deny that Jesus is God?


...
 
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Geoff m

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I'm an ex-Christian, now an atheist. To find the truth, I often revisit beliefs I have. Right now I am revisiting theism.

I'd love to hear the best evidence you have for God. How would I find out if he's real?

I'm really looking to listen, not argue. So while I may respond to tell you why the argument doesn't convince me (if it doesn't), please understand I'm just helping you understand my position so you can counter me.

I appreciate anything you have to offer.

I was an atheist for a long time many years ago despite being brought up in a Catholic family. I was that hard nosed about it that I would not attend my sons Christening because I did not think I believed it. 10 years ago I was, or at least I thought I was looking death in the face, and it was not until then that something inside me changed my way of thinking. I think if you have ever had the belief in God it will stay inside you, and be locked away somewhere in your mind until an event triggers it. You must remember it is all about faith. If you choose to follow the Lord again, it will only improve your lifestyle choices, or at least it did for me.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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So you believe a Christian can deny that Jesus is God?


...

lol! No, of course not. But this is an Exploring Christianity thread section--we're here to field questions made primarily by unbelievers. And if someone here doesn't believe that Jesus is God, then they shouldn't have a Christian tag and shouldn't be answering posts here either.

Anyway, I'm just making a suggestion. You are free to do what you want, Brother Jason! :cool:
 
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brightlights

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I'm an ex-Christian, now an atheist. To find the truth, I often revisit beliefs I have. Right now I am revisiting theism.

I'd love to hear the best evidence you have for God. How would I find out if he's real?

I'm really looking to listen, not argue. So while I may respond to tell you why the argument doesn't convince me (if it doesn't), please understand I'm just helping you understand my position so you can counter me.

I appreciate anything you have to offer.

If Frodo Baggins asked you for evidence of JRR Tolkien, how would you answer him?
 
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lol! No, of course not. But this is an Exploring Christianity thread section--we're here to field questions made primarily by unbelievers. And if someone here doesn't believe that Jesus is God, then they shouldn't have a Christian tag and shouldn't be answering posts here either.

Anyway, I'm just making a suggestion. You are free to do what you want, Brother Jason! :cool:

I just don't think they should be called one of the brethren if they reject that Jesus is God. You are saying I am bickering. I believe it is standing up for the truth of my Lord and Savior. I am not afraid to defend that Jesus is God at any point in time.


...
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I just don't think they should be called one of the brethren if they reject that Jesus is God. You are saying I am bickering. I believe it is standing up for the truth of my Lord and Savior. I am not afraid to defend that Jesus is God at any point in time.


...

Ok, brother! :cool: I catch your drift!
 
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SkyWriting

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I infer that you see this as an argument for the existence of God?

I am not an expert about things like thermodynamics and cosmology but I am almost certain that I know more than the typical western adult (that's not saying much, of course).

Here is the problem: If your argument has some merit, surely it would be more widely deployed in the debates about the existence of God.

I would like to believe you, but I am 99% certain an expert in the relevant physics would be able to find a fatal flaw in your implication. And I do not say this out of malice - quite the opposite; I would love to hear valid arguments for the existence of God.

I am offering the opposite. The lay person knows that "Order" is hard to keep up.
Millions of experiments will support this.

NEWS-house-of-cards-1200x800.jpg

Hot fluids, get cold.

1423989.jpg


Keeping things warm is hard work.
The cosmos will get cold and die.
Heat death of the universe


Keeping things orderly is hard work. Check for your self.

Ignore "experts" who can predict election outcomes.
HuffPost Forecasts Hillary Clinton Will Win With 323 Electoral Votes
Huffington Post-Nov 7, 2016 The HuffPost presidential forecast model gives
Democrat Hillary Clinton a 98.2 percent chance of winning the presidency.
 
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