An interview series on evolution and Orthdoxy.

Dec 16, 2011
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Oh ok. Still, if you think it's good ...

:)
Kylissa, You might find it here: http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/healingpresence/the_power_of_the_name

This sort of spiritual practice is not necessarily good for everyone, however. I think that I can offer an understandable explanation as to why this is so. It has to do with the degree to which one is ill. We are all ill to an extent, depending upon the severity of psychological trauma we have suffered. Oftentimes the very defenses that were erected and fortified within our psyches to enable us to survive such traumas become "hardwired" neuronal circuits in which we are stuck as if in an unbreakable loop. In such cases, the sort of psychic activity prescribed in hesychasm becomes either impossible for the person to succeed in, which could easily lead to despair, or else it can break huge holes in the dam of the persons defenses, letting the very horrifying emotions that created the need for the defenses to be erected in the first place come through and re-traumatize the person in such a way that the latter state of the person is even worse than the former. This, I think, is why spiritual fathers usually insist upon the practice being done only under the careful supervision of a spiritually discerned guide. We see striking similarities to this in the modern psychotherapy setting, where hesychasm is practiced under the name of "mindfulness" (see, for instance, the practices of Dr. Daniel J. Siegel). In this setting a person seeking psychotherapuetic treatment for specific emotional disturbances is trained in the practice of mindfulness (or Silence), under the regular and frequent watchfulness of their doctor. Such doctors are usually aware of potential risks associated with this practice and use it only when the patient is well enough to benefit from it. Until then they may use other methods of treatment.
 
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Just received an initial response from Dr. Rossi. He says he is interested in doing an interview. He said, word for word, " I certainly believe that Orthodoxy and biological evolution are compatible."
I hope he's able to complete the interview.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Thanks, Matt, and True!

I don't want to derail this thread. I appreciate the information. I had already searched and read an article (kind of in point form) by Dr. Rossi on this. And I clicked your link here, True, and I didn't realize Dr. Rossi was the one who did this podcast. I ran across it maybe 4-6 months ago when I was looking for new things to listen to and listened to a number of them, and even recommended them to my aunt (who is not Orthodox). Anyway, I listened to about 5 podcasts in this part of the series on my way home from work today. :) Thanks!

Kylissa, You might find it here: http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/healingpresence/the_power_of_the_name

This sort of spiritual practice is not necessarily good for everyone, however. I think that I can offer an understandable explanation as to why this is so. It has to do with the degree to which one is ill. We are all ill to an extent, depending upon the severity of psychological trauma we have suffered. Oftentimes the very defenses that were erected and fortified within our psyches to enable us to survive such traumas become "hardwired" neuronal circuits in which we are stuck as if in an unbreakable loop. In such cases, the sort of psychic activity prescribed in hesychasm becomes either impossible for the person to succeed in, which could easily lead to despair, or else it can break huge holes in the dam of the persons defenses, letting the very horrifying emotions that created the need for the defenses to be erected in the first place come through and re-traumatize the person in such a way that the latter state of the person is even worse than the former. This, I think, is why spiritual fathers usually insist upon the practice being done only under the careful supervision of a spiritually discerned guide. We see striking similarities to this in the modern psychotherapy setting, where hesychasm is practiced under the name of "mindfulness" (see, for instance, the practices of Dr. Daniel J. Siegel). In this setting a person seeking psychotherapuetic treatment for specific emotional disturbances is trained in the practice of mindfulness (or Silence), under the regular and frequent watchfulness of their doctor. Such doctors are usually aware of potential risks associated with this practice and use it only when the patient is well enough to benefit from it. Until then they may use other methods of treatment.

This is somewhat interesting to me, and I can agree (not that I know, but at least it seems reasonable) and I've read some of these ideas before. My interest is all wrapped up in many reasons - everything from my education, to my own experiences, to practices I was led in before I knew better (and apparently my teacher lacked either the discernment or else the concern one could wish he would employ, though he is quite well-known and has the educational background to understand this on a very deep level). But at any rate, most of that is many years in my past, and I have trustworthy guides now, and week by week my interest in analyzing things shrinks in comparison to my interest in actually doing, living, being. But a post like this can still pique it. ;)

Actually I have a very dear friend who keeps reaching out to me for help who has suffered a tremendous amount throughout her life, who could possibly benefit greatly from some of these principles rightly applied, IF she is able - but I am not foolish enough to think for a moment I have the ability to guide anyone. She lives about 700 miles away, but as soon as we are able to see one another again, I hope she will at least come to Church. She begged me to take her to a monastery, but I haven't been able to visit myself. If anyone ever needed quiet and freedom from the demons in their mind ... Lord have mercy!!!!!! (But she may very well fit into the "hardwired" category, sadly.)

As for myself I have much more capable guides now, thank God. I have to accept the reins sometimes, but I am finding things sufficiently challenging that there is no need to chafe at being restrained. Any random thought of wanting to INcrease things is quickly offset by the fact that I sometimes fail as things are now.
 
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Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if none of the priests you identified would be inclined to participate. I spoke with a fairly well known hieromonk theologian (someone not on your list, though) once about the topic. I don't recall his exact words, but they were along the line that the evolution debate is a huge distraction that takes our attention away from the real messages of Genesis: that God created us in His image and likeness; that man was responsible for his own fall through pride; etc. Although he is invited to speak in many, many different venues - Orthodox and non-Orthodox - he always declines to participate in anything having to do with evolution debates. I think we see this in CF. How many threads are running about evolution and how many are discussing the deeper spiritual truths behind the creation story. A misunderstanding of the nature of the fall is part of the foundation of penal substitutionary atonement.

That having been said, I did like a comment Fr. Pat made once: He said it's true, that chimpanzees and humans have 95% of their DNA in common, but that even a banana has 50% in common.
 
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jckstraw72

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Just received an initial response from Dr. Rossi. He says he is interested in doing an interview. He said, word for word, " I certainly believe that Orthodoxy and biological evolution are compatible."
i still love Dr. Rossi anyways ^_^
 
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jckstraw72

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Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if none of the priests you identified would be inclined to participate. I spoke with a fairly well known hieromonk theologian (someone not on your list, though) once about the topic. I don't recall his exact words, but they were along the line that the evolution debate is a huge distraction that takes our attention away from the real messages of Genesis: that God created us in His image and likeness; that man was responsible for his own fall through pride; etc. Although he is invited to speak in many, many different venues - Orthodox and non-Orthodox - he always declines to participate in anything having to do with evolution debates. I think we see this in CF. How many threads are running about evolution and how many are discussing the deeper spiritual truths behind the creation story. A misunderstanding of the nature of the fall is part of the foundation of penal substitutionary atonement.

That having been said, I did like a comment Fr. Pat made once: He said it's true, that chimpanzees and humans have 95% of their DNA in common, but that even a banana has 50% in common.

those deeper spiritual meanings are precisely at risk. evolution makes them totally separate from the actual historical experience of man and makes them only stories from texts. yah, we should know about the fall -- because there actually WAS a fall. the world wasn't always wallowing in corruption and death.
 
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those deeper spiritual meanings are precisely at risk. evolution makes them totally separate from the actual historical experience of man and makes them only stories from texts. yah, we should know about the fall -- because there actually WAS a fall. the world wasn't always wallowing in corruption and death.
Maybe not for Adam and Eve, at first, but St. Gregory of Nyssa was willing to admit that corruption and death belonged to the natural order prior to man's "missing of the mark".

"Mortality, ... derived from the nature of irrational creatures [i.e. the animals] provisionally clothed the nature created for immortality." (Catechism 8)

Elsewhere St. Gregory writes about the self-preservation of human beings which is a consequence of the Fall. Because of Adam's sin what was characteristic of the irrational animals was acquired by the human being.

"...for those qualities with which dumb/brute life was armed for self-preservation, when transferred to human life, became passion." (On The Making of Man, chpt. 18)

Here St. Gregory perceives animal life before the Fall to be violent. In contrast to the Genesis account of animals and humans being sustained by vegetative life, St. Gregory’s understanding of animal life before the sin of Adam is more in line with the data gleaned from the findings of paleontologists. For him self-preservation is a natural characteristic of the animals.
 
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jckstraw72

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well, it always depends on what is being meant by "nature" -- all things are "naturally" corrupt in the sense that our bodies and souls, in and of themselves, do not possess life -- only God possesses life by virtue of Who/What He is. but then again, all things are "naturally" incorrupt in the sense that we were made to be vessels of grace -- our natural mode of life is to be sustained in grace against corruption. and then again, we are "naturally" neither incorrupt or corrupt, as St. Theophilus of Antioch says, for to be naturally incorrupt makes us equal to God, and to be naturally corrupt makes God the author of death.

and of course there is a difference between man and animals -- man communes directly with God which sustains him in incorruption, but animals are sustained through man acting as a mediator between God and the world. in this sense we could speak of man as naturally immortal/dispassionate, but animals naturally mortal/passionate, while maintaining that their natural mortality was withheld until the sin of man. This is how St. Athanasius puts it, actually.

but all that aside, to make an exception for Adam and Eve is already to depart from the scientific consensus -- just not as boldly as do the "creationists!"
 
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well, it always depends on what is being meant by "nature" -- all things are "naturally" corrupt in the sense that our bodies and souls, in and of themselves, do not possess life -- only God possesses life by virtue of Who/What He is. but then again, all things are "naturally" incorrupt in the sense that we were made to be vessels of grace -- our natural mode of life is to be sustained in grace against corruption. and then again, we are "naturally" neither incorrupt or corrupt, as St. Theophilus of Antioch says, for to be naturally incorrupt makes us equal to God, and to be naturally corrupt makes God the author of death.

and of course there is a difference between man and animals -- man communes directly with God which sustains him in incorruption, but animals are sustained through man acting as a mediator between God and the world. in this sense we could speak of man as naturally immortal/dispassionate, but animals naturally mortal/passionate, while maintaining that their natural mortality was withheld until the sin of man. This is how St. Athanasius puts it, actually.

but all that aside, to make an exception for Adam and Eve is already to depart from the scientific consensus -- just not as boldly as do the "creationists!"

Put simply though, animals die. Man, minus the sustaining grace of God to which he has access as the microcosm, is no more capable of immortality than an animal. Man's choice of sin over communion with God has entangled man in the nature proper to animals. It is not incompatible with Orthodox Christianity to realize that the ancestors of Adam and Eve were animals produced from within the natural order of animal life cycles, and that God personally separated these two by endowing them with attributes by which they were in the image and likeness of God, and that they were in an optimal position (Eden) to realize a fullness of communion with God in themselves, by means of which they would elevate, in themselves, all of creation. For they (Adam) would have possessed the power of the Holy Spirit -- the power over all of nature. Adam chooses a different path, however, and suffers the fate of those simple beings that God caused the earth to bring forth; "dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return".

Such an understanding doesn't necessarily depart from the scientific consensus, only an atheist consensus. We are "creationists". We do not, however, have any need to take all the words in Genesis only at face value. We can see that God taking "dust from the ground" to mold into a man may indicate much more than what is conveyed by the simple visual image these words give rise to.

Furthermore, evolution is more in line with the way that God appears to do things, especially in salvation history. Redemption in Christ did not immediately proceed the failure of man (Adam). We all know that the incarnation of the Word happened only after a multi-generational process of "election" in preparation of it. The incarnation was left up to our free choice, in the person of the Theotokos, who by virtue of the person she is (and not by immaculate conception), is able to say yes to God's will in the virgin birth. She is special, and is only so because of those people and things who had come before. The same point can be made concerning the forerunner John, whose personal vocation is also a necessity in the formation of our understanding of Who Jesus Christ is. These people came to be because of God's processes. Salvation itself (theosis) is a mysterious process of death and rebirth: a perpetual exodus from one's old self. We are not afraid to see God creating all things, even man, by processes that can be examined scientifically. It is reasonable to do so.

But I don't wish to open another evolution debate. I only wish to see what responses we can get to Isaac's request for interviews and what ideas come out of these.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Btw, regarding Dr. Rossi and the Jesus Prayer, I especially like the article here at SVOTS. It's a very good overview, IMO, touching on relevant points relating to saying the prayer, with a nice little summary of each. I think I will print it out and keep it with related books. Thanks again for mentioning it!
 
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Btw, regarding Dr. Rossi and the Jesus Prayer, I especially like the article here at SVOTS. It's a very good overview, IMO, touching on relevant points relating to saying the prayer, with a nice little summary of each. I think I will print it out and keep it with related books. Thanks again for mentioning it!
This is a terrific article. A part of the article does, however, raise some important questions for me concerning the differences that allegedly exist between EO hesychasm and far Eastern meditation and yoga. I suspect there is slightly more in common between these practices than is admitted. I'm still investigating these things and its really only my problem. Anyway,thanks for the link.
 
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~Anastasia~

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This is a terrific article. A part of the article does, however, raise some important questions for me concerning the differences that allegedly exist between EO hesychasm and far Eastern meditation and yoga. I suspect there is slightly more in common between these practices than is admitted. I'm still investigating these things and its really only my problem. Anyway,thanks for the link.
You're welcome. I'm glad for the discussion of Dr. Rossi here, so I'm back listening to his podcasts and I found the article.

Would you be interested in talking about the similarities/differences between Eastern meditation and hesychasm? In another thread, I mean?

One of my instructors at university was very well-regarded in his field and very interested in Eastern practices. He actually took 6 months a year off to travel and involve himself in such things. I attached myself to him and was under his training for some time in Eastern meditation - and I do maintain that I gained some benefit from it. Certain things have stayed with me all these years. A couple of years later I returned to Christianity and happened to find myself with books from mystics and monks that were essentially in some cases hesychastic, and being rather ignorant, set off on practicing this as well. Again I got some benefit ... but ... I became extremely aware of some of the dangers as well. It really wasn't until this year when I finally read far enough into Orthodoxy to understand what I'd done, and realized to my chagrin that Father's strongest warning - NOT to engage in ANY sort of hesychasm without proper guidance - was something I'd broken 20 years before I heard his instructions. The way he explained hesychasm to us during our catechism classes, I didn't recognize that - I thought it involved ONLY a narrow slice of practices.

I've thought about it some since then, and I agree that there is in fact a great deal of overlap between the practices of Eastern meditation and hesychasm, as I understand it. (I can't really comment on yoga.)
 
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and of course there is a difference between man and animals -- man communes directly with God which sustains him in incorruption, but animals are sustained through man acting as a mediator between God and the world. in this sense we could speak of man as naturally immortal/dispassionate, but animals naturally mortal/passionate, while maintaining that their natural mortality was withheld until the sin of man. This is how St. Athanasius puts it, actually.

St Maximos as well when he speaks of man being the microcosm of the macrocosm. as long as man communed with God, he raised up all of the cosmos with him. when he broke that communion, it all fell.
 
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You're welcome. I'm glad for the discussion of Dr. Rossi here, so I'm back listening to his podcasts and I found the article.

Would you be interested in talking about the similarities/differences between Eastern meditation and hesychasm? In another thread, I mean?

One of my instructors at university was very well-regarded in his field and very interested in Eastern practices. He actually took 6 months a year off to travel and involve himself in such things. I attached myself to him and was under his training for some time in Eastern meditation - and I do maintain that I gained some benefit from it. Certain things have stayed with me all these years. A couple of years later I returned to Christianity and happened to find myself with books from mystics and monks that were essentially in some cases hesychastic, and being rather ignorant, set off on practicing this as well. Again I got some benefit ... but ... I became extremely aware of some of the dangers as well. It really wasn't until this year when I finally read far enough into Orthodoxy to understand what I'd done, and realized to my chagrin that Father's strongest warning - NOT to engage in ANY sort of hesychasm without proper guidance - was something I'd broken 20 years before I heard his instructions. The way he explained hesychasm to us during our catechism classes, I didn't recognize that - I thought it involved ONLY a narrow slice of practices.

I've thought about it some since then, and I agree that there is in fact a great deal of overlap between the practices of Eastern meditation and hesychasm, as I understand it. (I can't really comment on yoga.)

I would like to engage in discussion on this topic. I'm only experienced in the practice of the Church. I don't feel the need to practice anything other than what I know is beneficial, but because of various descriptions of meditation and yoga I've come across in my academic meanderings, I'm not very convinced by the altogether negative attitudes toward these practices on the part of many EO Churchmen. As I said, I think their are things that are being overlooked.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I would like to engage in discussion on this topic. I'm only experienced in the practice of the Church. I don't feel the need to practice anything other than what I know is beneficial, but because of various descriptions of meditation and yoga I've come across in my academic meanderings, I'm not very convinced by the altogether negative attitudes toward these practices on the part of many EO Churchmen. As I said, I think their are things that are being overlooked.
Btw, True, I started a thread here.
 
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