An interview series on evolution and Orthdoxy.

[jckstraw72]

this isn't a debate thread, Greggy-pooh. everyone's playing nice.

 

[ArmyMatt]

you could also contact Fr Sergius, the abbot of St Tikhon's as well.

 

[Cappadocious]

I want to do an interview series with notable individuals in contemporary Orthodoxy and get their take on some of the things we have been discussing and debating here. I will interview both proponents and opponents of theistic evolution and ask them some predetermined questions I have selected and formulated from the debates here. At this point, I have Fr. Evan Armitas, Fr. Josiah Trenham, Fr. John Whiteford, Fr. John Behr, Fr. Stephen Freeman, and Fr. Gregory Hallam in mind. Any other suggestions?

If they see Orthodoxy and evolution as compatible, I will ask them questions related to how they support this belief in light of the consensus of the church fathers and canon 109 of African Code (thanks, Jesse).

If they see the two as incompatible, I will ask them their bases for rejecting evolution apart from the Fathers, citing the strongest evidences for the reality of evolution.

Any other questions you think would be worth asking?

I will get back to the other evolution thread in a few days. But for now I'll say that if Fr. Whiteford and Fr. Trenham are on it, you've made a grave mistake.

 

[Wryetui]

Could someone post some Saints and their opinions of the theory of evolution?

 

[jckstraw72]

Wyretui, here you go ... https://oldbelieving.wordpress.com/...-and-theologians-who-have-lived-since-darwin/

 

[Isaac32]

Here is the first short Q & A from Fr. Gregory Hallam:

https://daviscam.wordpress.com/2015/09/08/fr-gregory-hallam-on-evolution-and-orthodox-christianity/

I've got a couple more in the works, so stay tuned.

 

[jckstraw72]

i hope we can agree that his response was rather disappointing

 

[gzt]

The response could have been better, but he is, in the end, right.

 

[jckstraw72]

well he seems to have put only the most minimal effort into it. it's not as if non-evolutionists aren't already aware of this quote that is often bandied about.

St. Augustine speaks of denying those things observed. Of course that is the bone of contention. Non-evolutinists don't deny that which is observed. We deny that which is extrapolated from observations, driven by assumptions. We do not see St. Augustine justifying this practice. His response would have done much better to demonstrate why or how St. Augustine's words make the point that he thinks they are making, and why, then, St. Augustine is to be taken as an authority over and against so many other Fathers, as he is setting them up against one another here. I could just as well make the argument that St. Augustine's words go against evolution, as it is against what we actually observe -- trees from trees, dogs from dogs, people from people, etc.

St. Augustine also says:

On Genesis: The Refutation of the Manichees 2.3

So then, this whole text must first be discussed in terms of history, and then in terms of prophecy. In terms of history deeds and events are being related, in terms of prophecy future events are being foretold.One should not look with a jaundiced eye, to be sure, on anyone who wants to take everything that is said here absolutely literally, and who can avoid blasphemy in doing so, and present everything as in accordance with Catholic faith; on the contrary one should hold up such a person as an outstanding and holy admirable understander of the text.

 

[Kristos]

The response could have been better, but he is, in the end, right.

Sounds like he's saying what I have been saying here all along...

 

[Kristos]

well he seems to have put only the most minimal effort into it. it's not as if non-evolutionists aren't already aware of this quote that is often bandied about.

St. Augustine speaks of denying those things observed. Of course that is the bone of contention. Non-evolutinists don't deny that which is observed. We deny that which is extrapolated from observations, driven by assumptions. We do not see St. Augustine justifying this practice. His response would have done much better to demonstrate why or how St. Augustine's words make the point that he thinks they are making, and why, then, St. Augustine is to be taken as an authority over and against so many other Fathers, as he is setting them up against one another here. I could just as well make the argument that St. Augustine's words go against evolution, as it is against what we actually observe -- trees from trees, dogs from dogs, people from people, etc.

St. Augustine also says:

On Genesis: The Refutation of the Manichees 2.3

So then, this whole text must first be discussed in terms of history, and then in terms of prophecy. In terms of history deeds and events are being related, in terms of prophecy future events are being foretold.One should not look with a jaundiced eye, to be sure, on anyone who wants to take everything that is said here absolutely literally, and who can avoid blasphemy in doing so, and present everything as in accordance with Catholic faith; on the contrary one should hold up such a person as an outstanding and holy admirable understander of the text.

Is Augustine really contrary to the rest of the Fathers? Does Augustine really contradict himself on this issue?

I don't think so. The contractions are being superimposed by your YEC presupposition. Get rid of that and things make a lot more sense.

 

[jckstraw72]

Is Augustine really contrary to the rest of the Fathers? Does Augustine really contradict himself on this issue?

I don't think so. The contractions are being superimposed by your YEC presupposition. Get rid of that and things make a lot more sense.

of course he doesn't contradict himself or the other Fathers. When he praises the literal interpretation of Genesis he is praising the work of his own spiritual father, St. Ambrose, who took his cue from St. Basil, as well as the many other Fathers who wrote on Genesis. I did not say he contradicts, but rather that Fr. Gregory has set them up in opposition without offering any means to harmonizing them.

sifting through his works to find one meager quote that applies to non-evolutionists only in the eyes of those already evolutionists doesn't do much to further this dialogue.

i would be glad to read the carefully considered words of some Orthodox evolutionist, if Isaac can find them.

 

[truefiction1]

I'd like to see responses from an Orthodox theologian who is well schooled in neuroscience, since a great deal of evidence that points to evolution becomes available by examining structures of the human brain and the brains of other animal species in comparison.

 

[jckstraw72]

yes, it would be interesting to see something more thought-provoking

 

[Isaac32]

I'd like to see responses from an Orthodox theologian who is well schooled in neuroscience, since a great deal of evidence that points to evolution becomes available by examining structures of the human brain and the brains of other animal species in comparison.

If you have someone in mind, let me know.

 

[truefiction1]

If you have someone in mind, let me know.

I might possibly know of a person. I'll get back to you.

 

[truefiction1]

How about Dr. Albert Rossi? He isn't directly involved in neuroscientific studies but may be well acquainted with many of the findings of neuroscientists which relate to his own practice, (that of a licensed clinical psychologist in the state of New York). Since he is also professor of Pastoral Theology at St. Vladimir's I'd be very interested in his views on human evolution.

 

[ArmyMatt]

How about Dr. Albert Rossi? He isn't directly involved in neuroscientific studies but may be well acquainted with many of the findings of neuroscientists which relate to his own practice, (that of a licensed clinical psychologist in the state of New York). Since he is also professor of Pastoral Theology at St. Vladimir's I'd be very interested in his views on human evolution.

I forgot about Dr Rossi. he has an amazing talk on the Jesus Prayer, so his thoughts would at the very least be pretty thought provoking.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I forgot about Dr Rossi. he has an amazing talk on the Jesus Prayer, so his thoughts would at the very least be pretty thought provoking.

From the point of view of psychology? I would be interested to find that talk if that is the case ...

 

[ArmyMatt]

From the point of view of psychology? I would be interested to find that talk if that is the case ...

no, just in a practical experiential sense