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An Index of SDA (Seventh Day Adventist) Errors

ViaCrucis

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Okay, so here's an example of misinformation:

There is a rather consistent claim made by SDA's that Constantine changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

Small problem, however. That never happened.

They are confused about something Constantine did do, namely he made the first day of the week a public holiday in the Roman Empire. We know precisely what this particular law which Constantine enacted accomplished because it is recorded by the Emperor Justinian in the Code of Justinian:

"The Emperor Constantine to Elpidius

Let all judges, the people of cities, and those employed in all trades, remain quiet on the Holy Day of Sunday. Persons residing in the country, however, can freely and lawfully proceed with the cultivation of the fields; as it frequently happens that the sowing of grain or the planting of vines cannot be deferred to a more suitable day, and by making concessions to Heaven the advantage of the time may be lost.

Given on the Nones of March, during the Consulate of Crispus and Constantine, Consuls for the second time, 311.
" - Codex Justinianus, Book III, Title XII.3

This is claimed to be when the Church abandoned the seventh day and adopted Sunday. Except, of course, that's wrong. And here are some reasons why it is wrong:

- This law dates to the Nones of March (March 7th) in the year 311 AD. Constantine's war against Maxentius was still going on at this point, he had not yet even secured his position as emperor in the West, let alone emperor of the entire empire (in 324 when he defeated Licinius in the East and became the sole emperor of the empire). This likely has little to do with Christianity at all, given that Constantine's battle against Maxentius at the Milvian Bridge was the following year (312) and it is before this decisive battle that legend states Constantine received a sign and became convinced that the Christian God had won him the battle--which is what resulted in his conversion. It is only after this decisive battle and Constantine secures his position as the western emperor that he is able to get support from Licinius and enact the Edict of Milan (313) which ended persecution against Christians making Christianity legal for the first time in Roman history.

- Not only was this law passed before Constantine's supposed conversion and the legalization of Christianity (and thus his patronage of Christians), it is simply impossible to attribute any kind of authority for Constantine to radically alter Christian practice--the fact is Constantine never held any ecclesiastical authority and so never had that kind of authority in the first place, but it is especially true here.

- The clear evidence of the Christian Church centuries before Constantine, is that Christians gathered on the first day of the week, the Roman day of the sun, for worship:

"And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn; and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration." - St. Justin Martyr, First Apology to Emperor Antonius Titus and the Roman Senate, ch. 67, c. 150 AD

"I do not say so; but those who have persecuted and do persecute Christ, if they do not repent, shall not inherit anything on the holy mountain. But the Gentiles, who have believed on Him, and have repented of the sins which they have committed, they shall receive the inheritance along with the patriarchs and the prophets, and the just men who are descended from Jacob, even although they neither keep the Sabbath, nor are circumcised, nor observe the feasts. Assuredly they shall receive the holy inheritance of God." - St. Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 26, c. 150 AD

"Wherefore also we keep the eighth day for rejoicing, in the which also Jesus rose from the dead, and having been manifested ascended into the heavens." - Epistle of Barnabas, 15:9, c. 80-120 AD

"Others with a greater show of reason take us for worshippers of the sun. These send us to the religion of Persia, though we are far from adoring a painted sun, like them who carry about his image everywhere upon their bucklers. This suspicion took its rise from hence, because it was observed that Christians prayed with their faces towards the east. But some of you likewise out of an affectation of adoring some of the celestial bodies wag your lips towards the rising sun; but if we, like them, celebrate Sunday as a festival and day of rejoicing, it is for a reason vastly distant from that of worshipping the sun; for we solemnize the day after Saturday in contradistinction to those who call this day their Sabbath, and devote it to ease and eating, deviating from the old Jewish customs, which they are now very ignorant of." - Tertullian, Apology of the Christians, ch. XVI, c. 200 AD

That's only three examples of a multitude of others.

So unless Constantine was a time-traveler and made this change during the time of the apostles, he had literally nothing to do with it. And, further, what is further clear is that the Sabbath wasn't changed, there is no doubt that Saturday is the Sabbath, just as there is also no doubt that Christians weren't interested in observing the Sabbath but instead held to the tradition of gathering on the day after the Sabbath.

So, here, I have provided you with facts based on primary sources.

Can I trust that you will not continue to believe that Constantine "changed the Sabbath"? Or insist that Christians worshiped on the Sabbath until Constantine and then adopted the first day of the week? Or will you believe this anyway in spite of the fact that the clear and unambiguous evidence is presented?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Paul Yohannan

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Small problem, however. That never happened.

This is truly glorious understatement. It is a small problem in the same respect that the maiden voyage of Titanic was not entirely succesful.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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Paganism was not outlawed in the Roman Empire until the reign of St. Theodosius, so that is uncompelling.

Since the 19th century Adventists have been issuing dire warnings about an impending Sunday worship law, and in the interim most Blue Laws have been repealed.
 
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masmpg

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Paganism was not outlawed in the Roman Empire until the reign of St. Theodosius, so that is uncompelling.

Since the 19th century Adventists have been issuing dire warnings about an impending Sunday worship law, and in the interim most Blue Laws have been repealed.

Every state has blue laws of some sort on the books. ALL 51 STATES! In 1888 senator Blair tried to pass national sunday law. An SDA attorney AT Jones stood single handedly against that law and defeated it through the power of the Holy Spirirt. You can read the book it is a great read. If it wasn't for AT Jones we might not have been born.

In fact here is the book online. It can be downloaded;
http://temcat.com/L-1-adv-pioneer-lib/ATJONES/NationalSundayLaw-Jones.pdf
 
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ViaCrucis

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Every state has blue laws of some sort on the books. ALL 51 STATES! In 1888 senator Blair tried to pass national sunday law. An SDA attorney AT Jones stood single handedly against that law and defeated it through the power of the Holy Spirirt. You can read the book it is a great read. If it wasn't for AT Jones we might not have been born.

In fact here is the book online. It can be downloaded;
http://temcat.com/L-1-adv-pioneer-lib/ATJONES/NationalSundayLaw-Jones.pdf

All 51 states?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Puerto Rico, which has a very strict sunday law. And votes in the elections.

Is not a state. And has no voting representation in Congress and no electoral voting power for US President.

There are 50 states.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Most of the old Sunday laws have been repealed, you aren't going to get fined working on a Sunday, and in many places liquor stores are open on Sunday, or for example my state which passed a law which allowed the sale of liquor in grocery stores there's nothing to stop me from buying a bottle of scotch on a Sunday.

The fear of "Sunday laws" is completely unfounded here in the US.

Further, there's nothing particularly special about the United States. Nations come, nations go. The US is a baby country in a globe filled with nations, many being hundreds, or even thousands, of years older than the US. There is no global effort to enforce some kind of Sunday law, and the laws of the Roman Empire stopped, largely, being of any significance as soon as the Ottomans breached the walls of Constantinople, some continued to influence Frankish law in Western Europe after the fall of Rome in the 5th century. But, no, Constantine's little law about Sunday being a public holiday before he was even emperor has precisely zero importance in modern global affairs.

These things are unfounded fears, and frequently becoming or approximating tinfoil hat conspiracy theory.

No, the Pope doesn't want to rule the world. Secular papal authority all but ended with the unification of Italy. Vatican City is a tiny parcel of land in the city of Rome, and it is all that is left of the once medieval Papal States, and in fact the current pope and a number of his predecessors have all but ignored the more secular aspects of the papal monarchy--the current resident of St. Peter's chair doesn't even live in the papal palace.

The reality is this: Adventist beliefs and fears concerning the papacy are increasingly demonstrated to have no basis. They are a remnant of a previous era of intense anti-Catholic resentment and paranoia among American Protestants, the same which resulted in regarding Irish immigrants as sub-human, which helped catapult Nativism, and was still expressed in the KKK (and still is, as the KKK remains a staunchly racist, anti-Semitic, nativist, and anti-Catholic hate cult). It is largely completely disconnected from the sorts of concerns of the Reformation had about the papacy, but nevertheless tries to hijack the Reformation without any concern for what the Reformation was actually about and what it actually stood (and still) stands for (Hint: the Reformation is not and has never been about opposition to the Pope or to Rome).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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masmpg

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Most of the old Sunday laws have been repealed, you aren't going to get fined working on a Sunday, and in many places liquor stores are open on Sunday, or for example my state which passed a law which allowed the sale of liquor in grocery stores there's nothing to stop me from buying a bottle of scotch on a Sunday.

The fear of "Sunday laws" is completely unfounded here in the US.

-CryptoLutheran

Every state still has their sunday laws on the books. You will find that out soon enough.

To fail to even respond to the senator blair sunday law that was ready to be passed in 1888, shows your lack of knowledge on this subject, or your desire to ignore it. Sunday laws have always been a threat to Christianity.

The only reason the SDA denomination teaches and preaches on the sunday law is because it will happen, and when it does prayerfully people like you will remember what it signifies. The national sunday law will wake many up because of the little SDA denominations warnings. The call to "come out of her my people" has been sounding since 1844, but the evidence that will bring many out has not been revealed yet.

Your lutheran bias shows. Martin Luther would turn over in his grave if he saw what his legacy has become.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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Every state still has their sunday laws on the books. You will find that out soon enough.

I suppose this is something we can look forward to in addition to the tyrannical reign of Pius XIII.

To fail to even respond to the senator blair sunday law that was ready to be passed in 1888, shows your lack of knowledge on this subject, or your desire to ignore it. Sunday laws have always been a threat to Christianity.

Not to my experience of Christianity. I think Sunday laws are important in asserting our Christian culture against Islam and Judaism, which would have Friday or Saturday be our sacred days. In most of the middle East the pious Orthodox faithful have no officially sanctioned respite with which to go to church on the day of the resurrection of the incarnate Word of God.

The only reason the SDA denomination teaches and preaches on the sunday law is because it will happen,

There is no evidence of it being on the horizon.

and when it does prayerfully people like you will remember what it signifies. The national sunday law will wake many up because of the little SDA denominations warnings. The call to "come out of her my people" has been sounding since 1844, but the evidence that will bring many out has not been revealed yet.

Why should it bother us? We believe in Sunday worship.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Martin Luther would turn over in his grave if he saw what his legacy has become.

Name one thing from Luther's Small Catechism.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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masmpg

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I suppose this is something we can look forward to in addition to the tyrannical reign of Pius XIII.

There is no evidence of it being on the horizon.
Why should it bother us? We believe in Sunday worship.

I could give you loads of evidence but you would excuse it as being a non credible source, which the "sunday alliance" probably means nothing to you. This group has been pushing for sunday laws since its inception. The "Lord's day alliance" is another powerful group pushing for sunday laws. They disguise it as a rest from the work week day. which is how sunday laws have always started out, innocent and seemingly necessary until they force us to break God's law and keep a man made institution in the place of God's holy blessed and sanctified sabbath day.

Why should it bother you? The fact that forcing any moral legislation would not be from God. God gave us a free will but forcing a day of worship on humanity takes away that freedom of conscience.
 
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masmpg

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Name one thing from Luther's Small Catechism.

-CryptoLutheran

I started a thread about why the RCC disfellowshipped Martin Luther but they shut it down for no reason. It seems to be okay to bash the SDA denomination, but when I put up the reasons that the catholic church disfellowshipped Luther, from catholic sources they will not allow it, and it is a great thread. No arguing, flaming NADA!
 
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ViaCrucis

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I started a thread about why the RCC disfellowshipped Martin Luther but they shut it down for no reason. It seems to be okay to bash the SDA denomination, but when I put up the reasons that the catholic church disfellowshipped Luther, from catholic sources they will not allow it, and it is a great thread. No arguing, flaming NADA!

That doesn't answer my question. If you think you know Luther well enough to be able to make the comment you made, then you should be able to demonstrate that you know something about what Luther taught and believed.

As I mentioned before, Luther is hijacked, the Reformation is hijacked, and there is a complete ignorance and misunderstanding of what the Reformation was or what it stood for. It is a rather consistent experience of mine on here that Adventists seem to act like they are some kind of authority on Dr. Luther but have precisely no real understanding of his theology.

But I will agree with you, if Luther could see all the various fanatical sects that developed in the centuries following his death he would be absolutely appalled--he was already deeply appalled by the fanaticism and sectarianism during his own time.

But, as I suspected, you really don't know anything about Luther except what your church has told you, and the Luther they've told you about is little more than a distorted caricature.

Want to prove this wrong? Then, again, name one thing--without looking--that Luther said in his Small Catechism.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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