An Important Message from Billy Graham to non-christians

[KWCrazy]

Nathan told David he was forgiven and his sin would be remembered no more when he confessed his sin and no blood was shed for the sacrifice. Solomon told the people that if they were carried away to a foreign land and turned back to HaShem and confessed their sins they would be forgiven and their sins not remembered with no instruction to complete a blood sacrifice. I really can't accept the above statement as true when the text in the Bible shows otherwise.

You are speaking about specific exceptions to the law, not the law. Both David and Solomon make sacrifices to the Lord, as did the other Israelites.

2 Chronicles 7:5 And King Solomon offered a sacrifice of twenty-two thousand head of cattle and a hundred and twenty thousand sheep and goats. So the king and all the people dedicated the temple of God.

Remember that the law serves God; God does not serve the law. He can make whatever exceptions He chooses, but they remain just that; exceptions.

 

[LoAmmi]

You are speaking about specific exceptions to the law, not the law. Both David and Solomon make sacrifices to the Lord, as did the other Israelites.

2 Chronicles 7:5 And King Solomon offered a sacrifice of twenty-two thousand head of cattle and a hundred and twenty thousand sheep and goats. So the king and all the people dedicated the temple of God.

Remember that the law serves God; God does not serve the law. He can make whatever exceptions He chooses, but they remain just that; exceptions.

Solomon was speaking to the people about the people and not about himself. I have never found a verse in the Tanakh that says without bloodshed there is no remission. Leviticus 17:11 is often touted, but it doesn't say that. It says that we shouldn't drink blood because during the sacrifice it is the blood that makes atonement. It does not say, nor does any other part say, that it is only though bloodshed that atonement can occur.

 

[Rajni]

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If it's any consolation to you God doesn't send anyone to Hell.
People go there on their own.

By the way, being a good person and doing good things doesn't
get someone into Heaven. either.

Feel better?

I used to believe this sort of thing until I realized how self-contradictory it was.

What made me feel better was when I became free from any images of Hell or of a judgmental God or of any of that kind of stuff.

Same here. Such imagery is not as God-glorifying as it's advertized to be.


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[Rajni]

I think a lot of people would be upset.

Yep, and in a way rather similar to the reaction of the 'righteous' brother when his father threw that party over the prodigal son's return.


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[KWCrazy]

Solomon was speaking to the people about the people and not about himself. I have never found a verse in the Tanakh that says without bloodshed there is no remission. Leviticus 17:11 is often touted, but it doesn't say that. It says that we shouldn't drink blood because during the sacrifice it is the blood that makes atonement.

It says:
"For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’ 12 Therefore I said to the children of Israel, ‘No one among you shall eat blood, nor shall any stranger who dwells among you eat blood.’ "

Romans 9:22
"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

In Genesis 4, Abel's sacrifice was more pleasing to God.
"4 and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering, 5 but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell."

 

[gord44]

Romans 9:22
"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

I don't think quoting from the NT does much for a Jewish chap.

 

[LoAmmi]

It says:
"For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’ 12 Therefore I said to the children of Israel, ‘No one among you shall eat blood, nor shall any stranger who dwells among you eat blood.’ "

Yes, and nowhere does that say this is the only method available. Only that we do not drink blood because it is the blood sprinkled on the altar that brings atonement during the sacrifice. The whole section, in context, says don't drink blood.

Also, if we are going to take this literally, Jesus does nothing because none of Jesus' blood went on the altar.

Romans 9:22
"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

This is not in the Tanakh.

In Genesis 4, Abel's sacrifice was more pleasing to God.
"4 and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering, 5 but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell."

Indeed, but it doesn't say several things. First, it doesn't cover if this was for sins or if it was merely an offering. Second, it doesn't say if it was because one was livestock and one wasn't.

What it does specify is that Able gave of the firstborn of his flock. It does not specific if Cain gave the best of what he had. I would also continue to say that a grain offering was acceptable for the very poor in Israel, as covered by the Torah, so it shows someone so poor they could not afford an animal could give an offering of grain which, as we know, has no blood.

 

[Deacon Don]

So he didn't talk about the importance of Love or Compassion and helping
those in need? That's the essence of the Message of Jesus Christ. If that
wasn't the whole of Graham's message, than he pretty much missed the
Heart of Christ and what Jesus spent most of his time teaching.

His message was John 3:16. He wasn't preaching to the choir. He was
preaching to the lost. Unless they have Jesus no amount of teaching
about love and compassion is going to matter a hill of beans since love
and compassion won't get a person into Heaven.

 

[awitch]

His message was John 3:16. He wasn't preaching to the choir. He was
preaching to the lost. Unless they have Jesus no amount of teaching
about love and compassion is going to matter a hill of beans since love
and compassion won't get a person into Heaven.

It's about whose ethereal butt you're kissing. Yeah, we know.

 

[dlamberth]

His message was John 3:16. He wasn't preaching to the choir. He was
preaching to the lost. Unless they have Jesus no amount of teaching
about love and compassion is going to matter a hill of beans since love
and compassion won't get a person into Heaven.

It's about making God ones reality in ones life TODAY where He is needed the most that's important. That's done through Love and Compassion and helping those in need. Jesus spent most of His ministery teaching that very thing.

The whole concept of "getting to heaven" is to me a totally self-centered and self-serving reason to love God.

.

 

[Deacon Don]

It's about whose ethereal butt you're kissing. Yeah, we know.

This type of reply if typical of those who can't respond civilly.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

His message was John 3:16. He wasn't preaching to the choir. He was
preaching to the lost. Unless they have Jesus no amount of teaching
about love and compassion is going to matter a hill of beans since love
and compassion won't get a person into Heaven.

If love and compassion (not for the sake of "earning" anything, but just as ends in themselves) do not suffice to qualify a person for forgiveness in God's eyes, who instead demands a cruel blood sacrifice and hinges his conditional "forgiveness" upon party membership - then that's a very unflattering picture of said deity. Like a capricious dictator who randomly decides that only bloodshed can satisfy his desire for vengeance. It does not matter whose blood, but the more innocent, the better.

 

[LoAmmi]

This type of reply if typical of those who can't respond civilly.

Ok, it may have been put crudely, but the end result is that a person needs to "join the right club" in order to not go to Hell in your religion as opposed to treating other people correctly or anything else. Although it is crafted to be uplifting, it is not to me. It is the opposite.

 

[Deacon Don]

It's about making God ones reality in ones life TODAY where He is
needed the most that's important. That's done through Love and
Compassion and helping those in need. Jesus spent most of His
ministery teaching that very thing.

And Jesus was very adamant about people going to Heaven. I
understand what you're saying about love and compassion. It's
very important and in the case of evangelical pastors, as Billy
Graham, it's up to the local church to teach love and compassion
or any other aspect of Christianity. There are books he wrote that
deal with the Christian life and they contain love and compassion.

The whole concept of "getting to heaven" is to me a totally
self-centered and self-serving reason to love God.

It's not self-centered in the least. It was taught by Jesus,
the most non self-centered man who walked the Earth.

 

[SharonL]

I didn't read all of the threads - too heartbreaking to see some of the callous responses. Billy Graham's last message was about how far we have grown away from God - his heart is hurting because of the lack of worship and respect and how God has been kicked out of every place possible. For those who don't believe, why do they find it necessary to come on a Christian forum and insult our beliefs. After all when it is all over and if we are wrong, we have lost nothing - and if they are wrong - they have lost everything. Fact is fact.

 

[awitch]

It's not self-centered in the least. It was taught by Jesus,
the most non self-centered man who walked the Earth.

Least self-centered, yet anyone who doesn't follow him goes to hell.

 

[LoAmmi]

I didn't read all of the threads - too heartbreaking to see some of the callous responses. Billy Graham's last message was about how far we have grown away from God - his heart is hurting because of the lack of worship and respect and how God has been kicked out of every place possible. For those who don't believe, why do they find it necessary to come on a Christian forum and insult our beliefs. After all when it is all over and we are wrong, we have lost nothing - and if they are wrong - they have lost everything. Fact is fact.

I haven't bothered to count, but there are a ton of subforums that this could have been posted. The person posted it here directed to non-Christians.

What kind of response does one imagine they will get?

 

[dlamberth]

His message was John 3:16. He wasn't preaching to the choir. He was
preaching to the lost. Unless they have Jesus no amount of teaching
about love and compassion is going to matter a hill of beans since love
and compassion won't get a person into Heaven.

You have brought up the whole attitude for why many of us are not Christian. The whole idea and trajectory of "you gotta get" into Heaven and all of the judgmental God and One True Way concepts surrounding that stuff just doesn't fly for many of us any longer. Could that have something to do for why so many of our youth are abandoning the Christian faith?

.

 

[Deacon Don]

Least self-centered, yet anyone who doesn't follow him goes to
hell.

They go to Hell on their own accord.

 

[bhsmte]

They go to Hell on their own accord.

Based on who's rules?