An Important Message from Billy Graham to non-christians

[gord44]

Wrong thread.

 

[JGG]

I was glad to hear the message was still one of coming to know Christs gospel. Not a prophetic message of gloom and doom, but one of hope for the evil doers, the pagans, the atheists, the muslims, deists, etc.

Poor Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc, etc. They have no hope.

 

[shawnavery]

Poor Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc, etc. They have no hope.

Sure they do....in Christ

John 3:16

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

If it's any consolation to you God doesn't send anyone to Hell.
People go there on their own.

"We didn't send people to the death camp. They went there of their own volition because being a Jew and doing Jewish things was a sufficient expression of their desire to go there."

Can you see how this argument does not fly?
Eternal torment is not something that anybody would willingly choose, ever. "if you do wrong without repenting/belong to the wrong religion, you CHOOSE hell" simply does not fly.

By the way, being a good person and doing good things doesn't
get someone into Heaven. either.

That's right - only the party membership card saves you from cosmic Auschwitz. Just say you're sorry and join the Party, and your file will be deleted while the Buddhist nurse who devoted all of her life to the welfare of the suffering will still suffer eternally for "choosing hell".

 

[shawnavery]

"We didn't send people to the death camp. They went there of their own volition because being a Jew and doing Jewish things was a sufficient expression of their desire to go there."

Can you see how this argument does not fly?
Eternal torment is not something that anybody would willingly choose, ever. "if you do wrong without repenting/belong to the wrong religion, you CHOOSE hell" simply does not fly.

That's right - only the party membership card saves you from cosmic Auschwitz. Just say you're sorry and join the Party, and your file will be deleted while the Buddhist nurse who devoted all of her life to the welfare of the suffering will still suffer eternally for "choosing hell".

So by your logic.. as the Jews arrived at a death camp one nazi stood there and said just believe in me and you don't have to go in and die. See how your argument doesn't work?

John 3:16

 

[dazed]

"We didn't send people to the death camp. They went there of their own volition because being a Jew and doing Jewish things was a sufficient expression of their desire to go there."

Can you see how this argument does not fly?
Eternal torment is not something that anybody would willingly choose, ever. "if you do wrong without repenting/belong to the wrong religion, you CHOOSE hell" simply does not fly.


That's right - only the party membership card saves you from cosmic Auschwitz. Just say you're sorry and join the Party, and your file will be deleted while the Buddhist nurse who devoted all of her life to the welfare of the suffering will still suffer eternally for "choosing hell".

I don't think Jews were allowed to join the Nazis. At least not out in the open.

Had quite a lot of fun with the bold quote against my Christian classmates.

She's going to hell right? Yes! But nobody told her about JC. Sucks to be her!

Jeffery Dalmer killed, sodomized and ate his victims, and he's going to heaven? Yes! John 3:16.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

So by your logic.. as the Jews arrived at a death camp one nazi stood there and said just believe in me and you don't have to go in and die. See how your argument doesn't work?

John 3:16

Actually, even Hitler himself, epitome of evil that he was, saved at least two jews from going to the death camps:
one of them was a commanding officer of his in WW1, and the other his former family physician. Both of them would have been subject to the Nazi's purgings if it had not been for the personal intervention of the "Führer", who stopped his eager underlings from seizing these men.

Also, imagine that there *had* been a Nazi at the gate of Auschwitz, offering a "free" pass to everybody who'd join the Party - do you think this would have vindicated the death camps, meaning that everybody who went there was responsible for his or her own fate?

 

[shawnavery]

Actually, even Hitler himself, epitome of evil that he was, saved at least two jews from going to the death camps:
one of them was a commanding officer of his in WW1, and the other his former family physician. Both of them would have been subject to the Nazi's purgings if it had not been for the personal intervention of the "Führer", who stopped his eager underlings from seizing these men.

Also, imagine that there *had* been a Nazi at the gate of Auschwitz, offering a "free" pass to everybody who'd join the Party - do you think this would have vindicated the death camps, meaning that everybody who went there was responsible for his or her own fate?

Well if your intent on going down the nazi road . then yes if the nazis were the creators of everything . were the creators of life the universe. Something tells me the nazis were not though .

John 3:16

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Well if your intent on going down the nazi road . then yes if the nazis were the creators of everything . were the creators of life the universe. Something tells me the nazis were not though .

What does that have to do with anything?
Even though every metaphor or comparison will collapse at some point, the fact that the Nazis were not creator deities hardly seems to affect the absurdity of the "nobody is sent to eternal torment, they choose to go there of their own volition and would never want to leave"-argument. At all.

Have you moved the goalposts without even realizing it? Because from where I stand, you've just dropped the whole "it's their own decision"-argument and tried to trade it for a "might makes right"-approach that places the responsibility in God's hands after all.

 

[shawnavery]

What does that have to do with anything?
Even though every metaphor or comparison will collapse at some point, the fact that the Nazis were not creator deities hardly seems to affect the absurdity of the "nobody is sent to eternal torment, they choose to go there of their own volition and would never want to leave"-argument. At all.

Have you moved the goalposts without even realizing it? Because from where I stand, you've just dropped the whole "it's their own decision"-argument and tried to trade it for a "might makes right"-approach that places the responsibility in God's hands after all.

You asked a question and I answered it.

John 3:16

 

[dazed]

Well if your intent on going down the nazi road . then yes if the nazis were the creators of everything . were the creators of life the universe. Something tells me the nazis were not though .

John 3:16

I think they were doing the good things on behalf of the Creator. Exterminating Jews were God's plan according to their good books, the Bible and Mein Kemp.

 

[shawnavery]

I think they were doing the good things on behalf of the Creator. Exterminating Jews were God's plan according to their good books, the Bible and Mein Kemp.

Lol

John 3:16

 

[gord44]

When I was a Christian I never really liked Billy ' style of evangelism. The alter call I always found to be silly. While I am sure many found it a life changing expeience, I think many are lead to go up for the alter calls because of emotionalism and peer pressure.

 

[LoAmmi]

I don't think Jews were allowed to join the Nazis. At least not out in the open.

The word you're looking for is collaborators.

 

[KWCrazy]

I somehow have the feeling that this "Important Message" isn't all that important at all. And who is Billy Graham anyway? Oh, I've certainly heard the name before, but if you are itching for a fool's errand remind me who he is exactly.

You must be very young.

 

[LoAmmi]

Well if your intent on going down the nazi road . then yes if the nazis were the creators of everything . were the creators of life the universe. Something tells me the nazis were not though .

John 3:16

I could not follow a deity that would give salvation to a person who worked at a death camp as long as they had the correct beliefs while sending those that were killed to eternal torment for lacking those beliefs. I would gladly be put in a location far away from such a being because it isn't just, it isn't holy, and it sure isn't something worthy of worship.

 

[shawnavery]

You must be very young.

Well in fairness I'm 43 and before I was saved in 2000 I've heard the name every now and again but didn't know who exactly he was.

John 3:16

 

[shawnavery]

I could not follow a deity that would give salvation to a person who worked at a death camp as long as they had the correct beliefs while sending those that were killed to eternal torment for lacking those beliefs. I would gladly be put in a location far away from such a being because it isn't just, it isn't holy, and it sure isn't something worthy of worship.

I can understand your opinion and I used to think that way as well.

John 3:16

 

[Lord Emsworth]

You must be very young.

Had I been younger than I am now, I would have been much more inclined to respond positively to the urgency expressed. It is called naivety.

 

[LoAmmi]

I can understand your opinion and I used to think that way as well.

I also have to say that it doesn't line up with what I read in the Tanakh. The beliefs of a person was never the question to the prophets but their actions. But that's why Christianity and Judaism are separated more than just the question of Jesus.

Of course, we don't have the whole Heaven/Hell thing so that changes things too.